Author Topic: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?  (Read 6163 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Sam_NY

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: us
Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« on: March 22, 2013, 12:40:41 PM »
I'm a novice and was hoping for advice on my first foray into solar--a very small-scale DIY solar pumping project.  This is my first post and I'm probably out of my depth, but here goes...

I have a little 12V/1.05A DC water pump.  I want to hook it to a solar panel so that it pumps water from a shallow well into an adjacent barrel.  I don't have a panel yet, but have noted that most "12V" panels actually put out more like 18V (as I understand it, optimized for charging 12V batteries).  I don't want to include a battery if possible, so I assume that if I get a panel that puts out 18V, I have to regulate it down to 12V, right?  Are there (inexpensive) devices that do this?

After some reading on voltage regulation and then some Googling, I found that "buck regulators for solar" are available on eBay and Amazon, etc, for a couple bucks.  Is this even the right gadget/approach? If so, let's say I buy a 20W/12V panel (that actually puts out 18V), how would I choose the right regulator?  Should I just be looking at "Vin" range and "Vout" range and Max output current?  Most have a potentiometer for adjusting output, so it makes sense, but I fear I'm missing something.

Lastly, I've read that with DC-DC switches, when stepping down, the Vin generally needs to be like 2V more than whatever your output voltage is, so for 12V out, you'd need the panel to produce 14V.  Can I assume that if the Vmp on a panel says 18V, that it'll stay above 14V for much of the day?

Any advice on any point is much appreciated.  If it's not abundantly clear from my post, please assume that I know just barely more than nothing about electronic circuitry.  Thanks!

DamonHD

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4125
  • Country: gb
    • Earth Notes
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2013, 01:25:55 PM »
Welcome to FL!

I am no expert at all on solar+pumping, but my understanding is that you'd get a pump designed to be directly driven by solar (tolerant of fluctuations in voltage for example) and connect it to the panel with no intervening electronics other than to maybe turn if off, eg with float sensors at both ends.

Else you get into PV + PV controller + battery + motor controller I suspect, and could easily overthink the plumbing as TomW might have said.

But, a grown-up may be along very soon to give you some actual help!

Rgds

Damon
Podcast: https://www.earth.org.uk/SECTION_podcast.html

@DamonHD@mastodon.social

Sam_NY

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2013, 02:59:34 PM »
Thanks Damon!  The pump is an inexpensive thing I found online, but it was advertised for solar applications.  The specs on the page gave a range of 5-12V.  I assume that means it could safely handle anything within that range, but the casing itself says 12V, which I'm guessing means that's where you'd get your optimum performance.

In either case, though, sending over 12V to it seems like a bad idea, so maybe I should be looking at lower voltage panels instead of ways of getting 18V down to 12V?

Anyway, thanks for the reply.

Sam

DamonHD

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4125
  • Country: gb
    • Earth Notes
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2013, 04:23:17 PM »
That motor 12V might also be a "nominal" 12V (to match a 12V panel) or a real 12V.  If the former then I think you you might be good to go.  I don't know from here!

Rgds

Damon
Podcast: https://www.earth.org.uk/SECTION_podcast.html

@DamonHD@mastodon.social

Sam_NY

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2013, 04:34:38 PM »
It says "rated voltage,"  I think.

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 11:33:57 PM »
12V nominal is usually about 15V, and a decent pump rated 5-12V should run on '12V nominal' and somewhat higher.

"please assume that I know just barely more than nothing about electronic circuitry"
If you would connect it to your "12V" car lighter while the car is running, then that is about 14.4V.
Margine of safety is often 20%, or moe.
That makes it 18V?

"The pump is an inexpensive thing I found online"
How inexpensive?
Myself, I would just try it, instead of wasting power forever in a converter.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 04:49:49 AM »
I've seen a few articles about battery less pumping systems in the outbacl.  They called it a solar pump current boost.  Basically they use a 67% PWM to boost availavle current from the panel by 50%. This gives the maximum run time each day under all weather conditions.  By its very nature this also limits  a panel with an 18V power point to about 12V.  The circuit is a basic 555 motor speed control without feedback.

One option is a 6A buck converter sold on ebay.  This will actually make starting a motor under low light conditions harder but will limit voltage voltage to the motor to 12V under full sun.  I wrote some posts about converting these modules to power point and keeping the panel at 18V.  This modification would provide the longest operation during the day. 

For no controller operation I would use a 24V motor on a 12V panel.  At 18-19V these would be a good match.  Running a 12V pump would likely be fine.  I would monitor the current.  If it seems a little high you can put a couple diodes in series to drop the voltage.

I searched around and didn't find the old articles but there is a lot of these devices for sale even on ebay.  They go under the obscure name of solar linear current booster.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 05:17:04 AM by OperaHouse »

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 10:46:34 AM »
When you connect the pump motor directly to a solar panel whose Voc is 18, the pump's current requirements will drop the panel voltage down to something closer to the rated voltage on the pump. That is as long as the panels Isc (short circuit current rating) matches the pump's rated draw. Look at the panel's short-circuit current and voltage numbers and multiply them together. That's the short circuit power for that panel. A direct motor connection like you want to do it basically a short circuit.

A '50 watt' panel on a '50 watt' pump will work just fine. A 200 watt panel connected to a 50 watt pump might burn up the pump.

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2013, 02:08:41 PM »
The linear current booster is more than kinda a neat ides.  It hands down surpasses by a quantom leap any other way to do it.  It is interesting that there is little idea of it here.  If home built it can save hundreds of dollars in extra panel costs and extend daily pumping time even in limited sunlight conditions.

Sam_NY

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2013, 09:37:26 PM »
Thanks everyone for the replies.

Ghurd, I might just give it a go, as you suggest, if nothing else affordable presents itself. 

OperaHouse, those linear current boosters cost more than the rest of my set up will all put together, but I sure am interested.  When I was looking for examples of "buck regulators for solar" I came across this circuit, which I believe has been mentioned elsewhere on this site:

http://www.solorb.com/elect/solarcirc/buckreg1/index.html

I'm not sure how this would differ from the out-of-the-box ones in terms of functionality, but it looks like it can be built for a couple dollars.  The datasheet also specifies components for buck/boost with their higher current chip (3A).  Anyway, I'm pretty sure I could follow the diagram, but I only understand maybe 50% of what's going on.  I'm also curious what the difference is between that and, say, this: http://www.amazon.com/LM2596-Converter-Module-Supply-1-23V-30V/dp/B008BHAOQO/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=33MPIKYPHYAF7&coliid=ISYGD84VHL0WD

(which is what I originally thought made a lot of sense, in my primative way.)

dnix71, That's an interesting concept.  So on one of the 20W panels I was looking at, it would be 21.6Vx1.2A=25.92W vs. the pump 12Vx1.05A=12.6W.  So maybe I should be looking at lower voltage/lower power panels, inline with OH's 24V motor/12V panel suggestion?

Based on all this, my process may look something like this: buy a 20W/12V panel, buy a cheapie buck regulator, test it, maybe try it.  If that doesn't work, consider making something like what the person made on solorb after reading voraciously on electronics/circuits.  If that seems too daunting, just trying hooking the thing up and seeing what happens.

Thanks again, everyone.  I really appreciate the suggestions.


OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 02:12:47 AM »
A 20W panel would just barely make it run.  Remember that that 20W is not a real life number as far as sunshine and it is for a cool panel, not one out in the sun.  You buy a little because te pump won;t likely draw what is rated at a full 12V.

Here is the circuit I talked about    http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=146685.0

These boards are not 3A.  The chip is rated at 3A under ideal conditions.  The weak part is the little diode.   Two or more of these can be placed in parallel and they wull load share.  Just set the pots for 12V individually as close as you can get.  The modules do need to be placed on a heat sink.  The nubs of the soldered potcan be filed sown so they are almost smoooooooth with the board then some tape can be placed overthem and the board glued.  ONLY one control circuit is needed.   Each of these refulators is only goos for 1A.

A motor is a low resistance and at start up draws more than rated current.  These switching regulators act as a variable transmission and provide much higher current at low voltage.  Think of the motor as only a 2V device.   As it spins it is also a generator.  At full speed it is generatinf 10V back EMF. That 2V is basixally the just the IR drip of the motor.

With just a panel that motor can spend hours sttalled untill the current is high enough.  Your eye is log and a panel is linear.  A hardly noticible wisp of a cloud will drop panel power 70%.  The switching refulator will efficiently convert that to higher current and run the pump at lower speed where a panel alone would just have a stalled motor.
 

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2013, 09:17:47 AM »
From an article in otherpower.....

"The controller's built-in Linear Current Booster (LCB) allows the pump to start up even on cloudy days.
Without an LCB (solar panel hooked directly to pump) it would take full sun to start."

Why is a linear current booster necessary?  In the morning an off axis 1A solar panel
may produce 200ma. A switching regulator held to the power point of 18V will convert 3.6W input power.
Conversion efficiency at very low voltaes is poor.  Lets say you get 2W out. If you accept the motor model
discussed earlier that would be 2V @1A, enough to start the motor.  A solar panel is basically a constant
current source till the power point voltage is reached.  A panel alone would would yield 200ma at about a
half volt on the motor.  This gives 100mw of power, not enough to turn the motor. A switching regulator
alone without a circuit to control the input voltage doesn't improve performance.

This will give extended pump run times.  Maybe you only need to run a pump just a couple hours a day. A panel
alone may be sufficient.  Still, that motor will be experiencing a lot of time just cooking and not running.
To eliminate a lot of this brown out time the following circuit might help.  A 12V relay coil is connected
to the panel.  The panel + is connected to the common contact.  A 20 ohm 5W resistor is connected to the NC
contact and panel-.  The NO contact powers the pump motor.  Typically a 12V relay will close at 8-9V and then
open at 3-4V. The resistor load insures that the relay will not close till the panel can produce about a half
amp.  The turn off voltage can be increased by adding a couple diodes in series with the relay coil.

If the panel is sized properly, over voltage will not be a problem.  However, this greatly reduces the
available on time.  This would be a great application for a small micro that could periodically sample panel
power, control current boost, set maximum voltage, and control water levels.

Here is another article I found   http://www.voltscommissar.net/minimax/minimax.htm
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 09:31:01 AM by OperaHouse »

oztules

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1477
  • Country: aq
  • Village idiot
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2013, 11:14:42 AM »
The current booster is almost mandatory I feel, and only costs a few dollars to do.

I have built a few solar pumping systems, and all use some form of current boost, even the 2-3kw ones.

In it's simplest theory, we need to understand that with an electric motor, current is torque... period.
Voltage is rpm.. if you have the torque in place... and one times the other is power.

But to start a pump turning, we need torque. The voltage is immaterial, and is only there to force the current through the circuit.

It is simple in theory and practice.

If we put a capacitance across the output of the panel, the cap will appear as a short for the first fraction of a second, then as it reaches full panel voltage, will appear as an open circuit.. and everywhere in between... so the current from the panel (with whatever light is available) will have a full capacitor with a time proportional to the ambient light (and the capacity of course).. more light, faster to reach fully charged.

The charged capacitor will now when full, carry an energy of 1/2 e^2 C... so now all we have to do is dump this energy into the motor.
The capacitor is happy to dump all it's charge/energy at once, and so is  capable in theory of infinite current  (think torque)... in practice it will be governed by the impedance/resistance of the circuit... ie the motor resistance, and the circuit (wire and switch) resistance, and whatever .

So all we have to do is place a voltage dependent switch to dump the cap into the motor, and we multiply the current by huge amounts..... but the time between charging up to the jump off voltage will vary with the light/input current.

This makes a poor mans buck converter/current converter. (anyone with a Ghurd dumpload unit will see this switching stuff when the dump load starts to turn on and off at varying frequency ... dependent on input and hysterisis and dump load impedance..... adds up to a kind of poor mans variable PWM)

In fact if we could use the Ghurd voltage switch of  his low voltage cut out ... then we achieve the same thing. ie when the voltage is too low, and the cap is charging, the fet is turned off ( low voltage cut out is active.. fet off), when the cap gets to trigger voltage, we turn on the fet and dump all the energy into the motor via the fet ( and freewheel diode) and then rest and wait again... we pick the capacitance to get the on/off times as we want them at low power. We can set the voltage turn on at somewhere around the mppt points, for the best result ( Yes we get poor mans MPPT as well). I find for a 36v panel, that working around 31 volts is a good place to start, as this pulls the mppt voltage point down when the panel is in poor light, but the panel will overtake this point when the light improves and effectively overpowers things and finds it's own point after that. Providing the motor can handle the max power point voltage of the panel, all is well....other wise driving a normal motor PWM with a voltage switch on it's input, and a resistor on that input to limit the max voltage from the pwm works as well.

This means with very little power from the panel (feeble current) we can in fact turn a quite large rotor.... it will go in steps like a stepper whilst the power is very low, but it WILL turn the shaft.... it wont sit and cook.

As the light gets stronger, and more electrons are released for work, the rate of turn on/off will rise, and you will hear the familiar squeal of a PWM driven motor.
When the panel has enough power to run the motor direct, the circuit is turned on all the time, and plays no further part in the system, until the currrent from the panel falls off due to light getting less (clouds, night).

I have also used Curtis 1204 275 amps 36 volt pwm motor controllers for 3hp and more motors, with a simple circuit in front of it to turn the controllers speed control input up and down ( few opto isolators and a zener), and this PWM output mixed with the inductance of the armature and the freewheel diodes, makes a very effective buck converter. I have seen 5 amp panels drive over 40 amps into the motor in poorish light using this system.. the shaft will turn even in fairly sad light. (40 amps at only a few volts when the panels were putting out less than an amp... big motors and fets have very low resistances, so you can get high torque at low voltages) This system can easily make 60 or more liters/min into a 120 psi head.... it's a big mono  pump with a 3hp brush motor.

In this case, the down side is that the very substantial caps in the controller cop all the ripple, and so their replacement is inevitable on a bi yearly basis ( internal heat from the switching, and from the caps themselves is problematic in high summer, and 60 amp loads)... external caps are much better.


So it is neither hard or difficult to fashion a current booster for a pump...... but try to keep the switching voltage to the fet gates at at least 13v to keep them turning on and off cleanly with little 12v systems..... 36 volt systems makes this easy, low light into 12v systems... not so much..... though at least when the light is low, so is the power, but the current can still be quite high, but the duty cycle will be low..... alla trade off.




........oztules

« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 11:31:46 AM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

Sam_NY

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 10:17:52 PM »
Thanks oztules and OperaHouse for the explanations.  I definitely get the theory now and am pretty clear on the methods described here.

oztules, the circuit you describe seems pretty similar to the "mini-maximiser" OH linked to: http://www.voltscommissar.net/minimax/minimax.htm.  In your scenario, would the FET similarly be switched by a comparator.  Outside of the simple relay setup OperaHouse suggests as a "full sun only" alternative (if I'm understanding that right), that seems somewhat doable.

The solorb circuit also seems doable (although I understand less about how the switch in that works), but it would be limited to 1A: http://www.solorb.com/elect/solarcirc/buckreg1/index.html

Am I right that the modified LM2596 circuit that OperaHouse built is working to add capacitance (and a way of switching off the circuit) to increase current?  I was initially wowed by those circuits (and that they can be had for a few dollars), but I get that those alone won't supply the necessary current (right?).

Anyway, in all cases, I need to do some study to match components correctly if I'm going to do something myself, so I may be at it a while.  I really appreciate the help and ideas.  This site is great!  Thanks again.

dave ames

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2013, 07:05:21 AM »

Hey Sam,

Welcome to the 'Fun House' :D

Wow! Lots of great info in this thread but I'm not quite sure of your project application?

If it's just a manual set-up..->Pumping some water from the source to the barrel on a sunny day..could just connect a 20w PV to the pump with clips and fill the barrel...if it seems too sunny out can tilt the module out of the sun a bit.

Or if pumping all the time that there is enough sun to pump? ->Here might think of ditching the direct scheme and have a tiny battery ~3AH charged with 5 or 10w pv
and the voltage controlled GHurd switch in LVD mode dumping into the pump. We have used this method to run aeration pumps.

If your pumping is float controlled, same set-up but would need a dump load to be engaged when the float switch is not running the motor.

Sorry to wander from your OP..Just find the stable voltage of a battery more forgiving of my skill set.  ::)

Do keep us posted, sounds like a good time.

Cheers, dave

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 10:11:14 AM »
This is a great project and I hope you continue with it. Many will see this as just another solar pond pump.
I see it as a teaching moment for switching electronics. That linear current boost is there in every switching
electronics.  In a charging application that regulator will put more current into a battery at 12.1V than one
at 14.5V under the same conditions.

Where are you in NY. I have a camp upstate. In my application I figured I needed 200W of panels.  I'm up to
800W and still don't have enough.  Your application likely isn't do or die, but keep that in mind when selecting
a panel.  I use a bilge pump to elevate septic water to a leach field.  I'd classify that as a severe environment.
I had a used pump that lasted five years in this application. The pump I replaced it with lasted two months. From
40 years of boating experience, you can expect a pump to last only a couple years even with light service.  Worrying
about cooking a motor may not be a major consideration.  In fact, keeping the motor a little warm may extend life.

Yes, the capacitor is used to store the power and then that is switched to the inductor.  Watts are conserved. The
end voltage gets determined by the load. A low resistance gives you a higher current. In the minimaxer, the motor
ends up being  the inductor. Some circuits will add an additional inductor to insure a lower switching frequency.
Thus it gets its name as a poor boy regulator.  Actually most of these comparator based regulators are given that
name as they are allowed to free run at any frequency.  I believe the storage capacitor in the minimaxer is about
a quarter of what it should be.  The circuit also has some other design issues.

Glad to see capacitors were brought up. Many think of these like buying a can of beans, they have a value and
voltage.  Thise that wouldn't think of putting a couple amps through a half watt resistor are fine doing that with
a little no name electrolytic.  Most of what you find to buy will have no published specification for current. You
will always be better off putting several capacitors in parallel to get a low ESR.  I'm working on a 80A Xantrex
power supply that has about two dozen capacitors on the output.  There are six different types and each has a purpose
in filtering.  This supply was hit by lightning on the output. 1,000V ceramic caps were blown to pieces while other
caps right next to it appear undamaged.  Interesting question.  Were the caps that blew up inferior or superior?

I have purchased a number of LM2596 regulator modules.  For only a couple bucks they are mighty handy.  Like children
they are all the same, but everyones different. Some of the switching diodes are smaller, caps are different. You
never know what will he sent.  The inductor and diode need as much heat sinking as the regulator chip.  The chip is at least
thermally protected, the other pqarts are not.  One might do. I wouldn't know till I tried cooking one till it failed and I wouldn't
do that unless someone bought me one.  Using one of these would limit the motor voltage regardless of panel size.

My article on the LM2596 was to start a discussion about how any swirching regulator could be made to operate at
the solar panel power point.  This power point really didn't change much with light level, only with the temperature
of the panel.  A little adjustment four times a year would yield 90% of the benefits of a full MPPT regulator at a
fraction of the cost.  For wind generators it would allow adjustment of the cut in speed.  That discussion never
happened.  I controlled the input voltage with the chips on off pin.  In a much earlier post I used basically the
same circuit to over ride the feedback pin making the regulator think the output voltage was too high so it shut down.
Ebay is a cornicopia of basic regulators.  As others see an old rusted brake rotor as a future wind generator, I see these
boards as a basie of a control system.  As much as I would like to there is no reason to build a lot of electronics.  A small
modification with a couple parts gives a nice looking project for less than all the parts bought individually.

If you are thinking of building, find an old PC power supply.  It will have all the parts you need and a case.
Any switching regulator can be used for this purpose.  The transistor or FET and high speed diode will come with a
heat sink.

The GHURD controller could be used to do this with the addition of a high speed diode on the motor.  I'm beginning
to think I should get 10%.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 10:26:16 AM by OperaHouse »

just-doug

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 08:04:17 PM »
in my experience,attemting to use the just right size panel,is often not quite enough panel.and the small panels often cost more money.

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2013, 05:22:05 PM »
This is a great project and I hope you continue with it.
(ghurd agrees)

The GHURD controller could be used to do this with the addition of a high speed diode on the motor.  I'm beginning
to think I should get 10%.

Uhhh...  What?  How?  Huh?

Big giant cap on the PV input side?  That I can almost seeas helping, if the ghurd C1 was BIG.
Big cap on both sides?  Not so sure that would help, as knee-jerk reaction is it would be a bad idea.


I tell people not to use a motor as a dump load, because it can and has burned up motor coils without the motor doing significant work.

I ALWAYS tell people to use a Schottky flyback / freewheel diode on the load.  Cheap, easy, possible longer high reliablity, and better safe than sorry.

Is that 10% negotiable?
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2013, 04:44:00 AM »
I've been meaning to mention that.  I have looked many time and have never found the value of C1 in the documentation,  Don't think it would have to be much larger than it is now.  Cap on supply would have to be large.  I could see adding a feedback resistor. to widen the trip points.

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2013, 09:49:36 AM »
I've been meaning to mention that.  I have looked many time and have never found the value of C1 in the documentation,  Don't think it would have to be much larger than it is now.  Cap on supply would have to be large.  I could see adding a feedback resistor. to widen the trip points.

C1 value is not critical.  The first pile shipped out with 16uF.  After that is 10uF.  Did not make much difference in real world functioning.  4.7uF runs pretty darn fast, maybe too fast.  3.3uF is way too fast.

Naturally, the speed is also related to the RX value.  3.3uF and 220K RX would be faster than 3.3uF and 51K RX.

And it is also related to the battery's actual State of Charge, incoming current, and outgoing current.
Uh... The "faux PWM" is sort of "self adjusting" as required in duty cycle and frequency?  ???

No need for a feedback resistor.  The resistance choice of RX determines the hysteresis.
Where the actual trigger point is set has a small effect, but with "normal" regulation voltages these numbers are very very close.
RX/Hys: 1.8K/1.0V, 3K/0.8V, 3.9K/0.62V, 51K/0.14V, 100K/0.1V, 150K/0.08V, 180K/0.06V, 220K/0.04V.

With 100K RX and 0.1V hysteresis, the battery voltage reads rock solid with normal volt meters (as long as the power coming in is able to maintain regulation voltage, if you know what I mean).
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2013, 10:57:13 AM »
First check the lift on the pump . Most of the bilge pumps lift to 6 feet effectively .
 A small compressor may be a better Cheap alternative to a 12 volt well jet pump . Either will probably need batteries realistically. 
Good project.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 12:01:29 PM by tecker »

oztules

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1477
  • Country: aq
  • Village idiot
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2013, 05:23:10 PM »
I just can't see the sense in using batteries for water pumping, unless you want to pump at night and not during the day.
You throw away 30% of your power for no return, and have a maintenance issue you don't need.

You will be streets ahead with just the panel and any fixed displacement pump and a solar current booster.

It is worth noting, there is not a single battery solar pumping system on this island anymore. All dead and buried, and now solar only pervade this place.

If people who rely on it for cattle watering dump the batteries, you know they were crap. Reliability is paramount for these folks, and battery systems are not this.

Battery systems are much easier to engineer, but far worse in the real world.


...............oztules
Flinders Island Australia

tecker

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2183
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2013, 07:47:34 AM »
I  imagine battery problems would push things into the red in a remote well . Solar ,wind matched to the well pump l would give some peace of mind .  I love the batteries I have now I don''t really tax them but they are just what I need .

oztules

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1477
  • Country: aq
  • Village idiot
Re: Newbie Q about volt regulation for PV direct?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2013, 06:00:05 PM »
SamNY
"
oztules, the circuit you describe seems pretty similar to the "mini-maximiser" OH linked to: http://www.voltscommissar.net/minimax/minimax.htm.  In your scenario, would the FET similarly be switched by a comparator. "

Yes, the system I described would be of that ilk.

Am currently building a new version, that uses a op amp to provide a trlangle waveform, another op amp to act as the sense comparator, and a third to combine the results of the first and second... and some transistors to monitor the motor and provide feedback into the sense comparator.

What this means is we have a PWM of fixed frequency, and we modify the pulse width. It allows for the following:
1. We can use a simple dip switch to change the voltage of the panels from 12v up to say 48v (nominal ie 4 panels in series)
2. We can choose the upper voltage we want the motor to go... ie if we have a weak soak/well, we can turn the max voltage from say 12v down to 8v etc (trim pot) for the 12v setting ( and up to 14v)... same thing for 24v etc...
3. The above allows you to run 48v array to drive a 12v motor, without any stress to the motor, lighter wires etc etc. ( dip switch)
4. Allows you to control max A if we use the last op amp in the LM324 to protect the fets.

So we can now set to match our panel array, regardless of pump voltage compared to it.
we can set limits to pump rate.
This is more useful than the bang bang system, but for small pumps, the bang bang works just fine..... unless you have too much panel, then it will be a bit tough on your motor.... ie 12v motor will hit 18v.... some are ok, some won't be amused.

The other advantage is that you can get the wave form very square, and so drop the switching losses.



...................oztules


Flinders Island Australia