Author Topic: 48v turbine output too low  (Read 9557 times)

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demorgan

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48v turbine output too low
« on: April 29, 2013, 07:56:15 PM »
Hi,
I am new to this forum and hope someone could help me with some questions.
First some background:

I recently built a 20 footer on a 110 ' tower wired 3 phase fro 48v . or so I thought . I did some tests today and these are the results. Wind was about 10 mph today . the peak output DC was 41 VDC at 33 Hz. on My machine that is around 132 rpm and the tail was fully furled. The load that I had connected was 2.1 ohms   3 large industrial resistors in series. The air gap is aprox .080 on each side of the stator .  un loaded the machine reaches 54 VDC at 32 Hz or 128 Rpm.

So here is the question... aside from rebuilding the whole thing . what can I do to raise the cut in voltage. I do realize that I will Have to add weight to the tail to raise the peak output.

What is the peak Rpm for a wood 20' turbine?? Should I cut the blades down to 17' ??

I have no experience other than today with tuning this turbine. perhaps someone with more experience could make an assessment of the output and give some advise. 

 :-\


Flux

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 07:16:15 AM »
Are you so far off the mark?

Firstly it is not going to do well fully furled at 10 mph.

54v oc means that you are above cut in for a low state of charge 48v battery, if it's full and gassing it doesn't need charging anyway.

What was the point of loading with resistors unless you are building a heating machine without batteries it seems pointless. If you got 40v into 2 ohms that is 800W. That is pretty good going at 10 mph and if you were on the battery it would settle its speed and oputput to match the battery and probably not be a great deal below that figure.

Sort the furling, connect to the battery ( forget resistive loads) and wait for worthwhile wind before jumping to any conclusions or doing any mods.

Not had any experience with 20ft but on the basis of a 10ft machine you should be fairly comfortable up to 300 rpm and it will be loading heavily by then.

Flux

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2013, 02:12:17 PM »
Thanks for the reply Flux,

I had good wind yesterday (20 mph) And as yet I do not have any batteries. I am going to pick some up soon ,as the Inverter will not fire up without them . As far as the resistors go this is the only way I have to test and load the machine. Yesterday I Changed the load to .7 Ohms to see what the full  load output would be I saw 35v  at aprox 30 amps at 138 Rpm at that point the machine was completely furled and began to slow down. I think that the only way to get to the cut in voltage is to add weight to the tail, but I am not sure How much to add . :-\

Flux

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 02:26:38 PM »
A Wait until you get the batteries and don't think of trying an inverter without them.

I wouldn't do much about the furling until you actually try it on the batteries, It does rather sound as though you need more tail weight, but the furling depends a lot on the prop speed and loading.

I suspect your resistor load is way too low and you are stalling things.

Flux

oztules

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 03:53:55 PM »
"I think that the only way to get to the cut in voltage is to add weight to the tail, "
........ no the best way to get to cut in is to connect batteries.... the whole shebang will be totally different with this. Your unloaded rpm will probably double, it will start to charge. ... and a whole new dynamic will come into play.... very complex, but very nice too.

The resistive load has stalled the prop. Listen to Flux.


.....................oztules
Flinders Island Australia

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 04:57:26 PM »
Going to Pick up some batteries tonight.  From what I have gathered from browsing the forum larger turbines should have a lower cut in speed . My first test showed the Open circuit voltage 54V at 128 Rpm . I figured this was too high as most discuss 80 to 100 rpm cut in for 20' turbines. When I connect the batteries if the Rpm Doubles 260 ish would be ok , but above 300 I would start to get worried.

oztules

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 05:11:23 PM »
You measured the DC voltage with a multimeter. This will be RMS or mean average, the peaks were actually 1.4 times this measured voltage.

The battery will see these and start to charge, your meter wont.

Cut in was probably around where you designed it. You could test this by using a 200uf capacitor across the output with a 5k resistor in parallel. Then the cap will store the peaks long enough for your meter to read them. The resistor is just there to continually bleed the voltage from the cap to allow for measuring dropping voltage... else the cap would stay charged.

Batteries and amp meter will tell all.

It's too early to panic at this point.


...............oztules
Flinders Island Australia

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 09:20:58 PM »
The fluke meter I used is true RMS. My understanding is that the AC is displayed as Rms or the DC equivalent. ??? and DC is displayed with no conversion necessary. Correct me if I am wrong  .  And by cut in voltage do we mean AC??

oztules

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2013, 10:07:47 PM »
You are not wrong.... nor am I.... why?

The DC you are measuring is pulsed DC, so consists of the AC waveform, but manipulated by the diodes so that all the waveform is above the zero line. You have DC rising from zero to say 50v and back down at twice your AC frequency ( two positives per cycle now)... so it is not RMS style DC that we normally think of.....  is actually a DC waveform that varies from zero to the peak of the ac wave... the meter will probably see this, and plot the rms value.... unless you have a meter that measures peak DC. ( not caring about diode loss for the moment) The DC waveform will be almost a replica of the AC wave, but all above the zero line.

To test this, get a small transformer, measure the AC.... now add diodes and rectify,.......now measure the DC, ............now put a capacitor across the output and measure again.... then tell me what happened.

When you measure say a battery, all the waveform  has the potential at the terminal voltage ( straight line), with the pulsed DC waveform, the continuous DC voltage will be .7071 of the peak if the wave was a rectified sine wave..... or the RMS value. If you get all the area under the waveform, and average it  ( make it a square wave) to a consistent Y axis value ( straight line), you get the same as the rms value.

Does that make sense now?.... or use the scope, and see if this is true, or your meter is smarter than mine ( cheapo things)

An analogue meter will have to display the RMS dc equivalent of the pulsed DC, as it takes work to move the needle, and the gaps between peaks will allow the needle to relax before the next impetus... so it will average the peaks for you that way.

The same is true of the current, the amp meter will show the average current, it will not show the peak currents that circulate... so if you have say a peak current of 1 amp for 1 millisecond.. followed by no amps for 9 milliseconds, then 1 amp etc etc..... you effectively have pwm... the voltage/current spikes will be terminal voltage that the switch passes to the load, but the motor or light will run/glow at 10% of it's max... and the current meter will show 10% of the peaks.... not the 1 millisecond peak.....and the power will be 10% of continuous switched on........ but all still DC.

In truth, if we use the geometry of the alternator to create an almost square wave, we limit the i^2R losses, more than a sine wave... which will have peak currents 1.4 time the square wave version. ( this will require no leakage, and very tight  airgap (in the order of 4mm with windings 3mm thick) Not very practical, but Gwatpe did make one like this, and was a near square wave)




....................oztules

Edit. For those without the facilities... that transformer testing will go like this.:

For a 20v transformer, we see 20vac
When we rectify, we will drop some volts across the rectifier, depending on the diodes 1-2v  so our rectified voltage will be measured by a normal multimeter as about 18vdc to 19vdc or thereabouts...

When we put an electrolytic capacitor of say 1000uf across it, the voltage will now read about 26vdc to 27vdc.

So our 20vac  rectified and filtered will be say 26/18 or about 1.4 ish... or around the other way, 18/26 will be about .7........so it will work out close to the theory. The diode drops are difficult to guess at, as it depends on type, but in the ballpark of accurate enough to play with....

The startup/cut-in  of the mill will be about when the DC peaks hit the battery.... then onwards and upwards (we hope) ::)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 10:54:51 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2013, 12:15:33 AM »
Thank you for the explanation . I guess I was confusing what I was reading with what was Happening In the real world. Good news I scored some AGM Batteries for  60.00 each ,so tomorrow after I get the blades back on  I can get some real numbers. :)

Flux

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2013, 02:59:41 AM »
Your cut in is a little higher than most people normally aim for but it depends on your local wind condition and what
 you want to achieve.

If you are in a very poor wind area then it may be an advantage to have a really low cut in speed but there is not much energy in low winds.

From your figures it looks as though youi will be cut in under 10 mph. with a bit higher cut in speed you gain enormously in the higher winds as you keep out of stall longer.

Wait a few days and see what you get into the batteries before making any changes. I see nothing from your figures to suggest that you have a significant problem but if it continues to furl in low winds with the battery that is the first thing to sort.

True, you can cut the blades back and gain a bit of speed but the power capture is a factor of swept area so doing this will seriously cut the maximum power. Don't rush to those conclusions yet.

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2013, 08:35:41 AM »
Thanks for all of the good info. I will post an update when The machine is back up and flying .

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2013, 03:51:34 PM »
Today the 110 tower is back up and flying the 20 footer. With Batteries . I did not expect much with only 5 mph winds. Top speed so far is 120 rpm . I see  that adding 1.5 pounds of weight did absolutely nothing to correct the early furling. It looks as if when the blades speed up the tail begins to lift . May be I should have added more like 10 lbs. I also noticed the tower has a slight wobble at 80 rpm and goes away above that .I have balanced the blades using the pendulum method and checked the 120 degree angle within 1/16 " on all 3 blades. and tracking is within 1/2 " of each other. could the tower be oscillating from the start up thrust ? anyone with experience with tower wobble?

SparWeb

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2013, 12:06:01 AM »
All towers move with wind turbines on them, at least a little.  I had one not well balanced, and the thing really did wiggle then.

110 feet of lattice?  Light delhi antenna stuff, heavy Rohn sections, or...?  Spacing of the guy wires?  It can make all the difference.

At low speed it's easier for the turbine and tower to find a harmonic they share.

Good luck.  Please let us know if it works out or not. 
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Flux

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2013, 03:22:20 AM »
It is unlikely that you will ever get perfect balance, you have to deal with static and dynamic balance and unless the blades are perfectly identical you will have disturbance forces.

You will almost certainly have resonance somewhere and at resonance even very tiny forces will excite tower movement. As long as it is only at one speed and you get through it there is no need to worry, your case seems ideal in that it comes below the useful working speed.

Without pictures or more details I can't imagine why you are furling at such a drastically low wind speed, especially off load. Certainly for a large machine like that I would suspect adding less than 10 lb is unlikely to make any noticible difference but I do wonder if it is really furling or something different.

Try comparing the true wind direction with the axis of your alternator, you may be able to use clouds or you may need a local wind vane.  These machines never track the wind well but if there is more than 30 deg difference between wind direction and alternator axis it will have some effect on power production. If it exceeds 45 deg then you ought to seek the problem.

Flux

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2013, 08:44:45 AM »
I am attaching a Pic of the Tower showing the placement of the guy wires. I think that my problem lies between the primary and secondary guys. I think that adding a guy in between them may help with the wobble. The tower is like a noodle when on the ground even though it is constructed of 11 inch steel pipe with 1/4 " wall thickness. the top stub is where I see most of the action when it starts to spin . It seems like it is actually bending with a jerky thrusting action If that makes sense. I will upload a video of the Furling problem .At around 18 seconds It shows the tail almost completely furled in a 5 -10 mph wind.




Also please note the tail is 12 sqft . I did not think much of it at the time ,but now I begin to wonder if the tail is just too big. I have seen tails of all sorts ,chickens ,pigs ,cows .... and did not think it would matter that much.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 09:31:28 AM by demorgan »

Flux

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2013, 11:51:19 AM »
Just a thought, I wonder if the two things are related.

The furling is based on the assumption that the tower at the yaw pivot  is truly vertical. If the top of the tower is bending it will alter the furling as the tail will decend to the lowest point.

Flux

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2013, 12:34:44 PM »
The furling does not begin until after the wobble has stopped. However I does come on quickly after that. some where around 100 - 120 rpm.

SparWeb

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2013, 01:13:04 AM »
I could be wrong, but that doesn't look "fully" furled, just partially.  The tail is off the down-stop, for sure, but hasn't rotated the turbine fully. 
Do you know the wind speed from ground measurements or do you have an anemometer up there?  The difference between ground wind and the wind speed 110 feet high can be a factor of 3 or 4, particularly with the trees I see in your photo.  How tall are they?  Was the wind blowing during your video coming through the trees too?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2013, 10:00:55 AM »
I do  not have a wind speed indicator yet so the mph is just an estimate. The trees are 50' high and wind was from the south east and coming through the trees.You are right the wind was  too light to turn the turbine, but in the video the tail did bump the stop at one point. On another day wind the was 10 + mph and the turbine does actually turn and slow down. My plan of action is this. I am going to add 10 lbs to the tail and add extra guy wires to the tower. 

One other thought on guy wires. How tight should they be? I Have them very tight ,but there is still a slight (1") sag in them. I have seen towers with wires  more slack than mine . When the tower wobbles the guys flex some as well.

SparWeb

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2013, 02:25:44 PM »
It's hard to say without seeing the tower and measuring a number of things.  The right cable tension depends a lot on whether you have the anchors spaced out well, or close to the base (by the photo you look ok).  And the size of the cables, the height where each station attaches, and so on.  You need some tension to keep the tower steady, but you need most of the tension to resist the thrust loads that the wind puts on the turbine.  If there's 500 pounds of thrust, and the guy wire reaches down at a 45 degree angle, then the tension you need is

500 / cos (45) = 707 pounds (absolute minimum)

Also factor in some 50% extra tension for uncertainty (cable tension is hard to measure in-situ), and another extra for the uncertainty in the thrust force (which I just pulled out of the air).

There is no such thing as a perfectly straight span of cable.  That's not a 1" sag, it's the considerable weight of a considerable length of cable having a normal effect.

If you are still concerned about it, there is a way to test some cables to figure it out.  Do you have a scale that can measure ~500 pounds of tension? 

How far does the tail come around before it touches the furling stop?
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demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2013, 06:20:29 PM »
After seeing how this thing reacts to higher winds I am glad I went with a 45 degree angle on the guys. It took more land, but well worth the investment. I see your explanation on how to calc and check cable tension and will give it a go this weekend. I think the tail swings about 105 degrees total to the stop. I watched the turbine yesterday as I had some 10 mph gusts . It was spinning most of the day and made almost no power due to the high cut in speed . and as soon as it started to make power It would slow down. I looked up Booster circuits and made one and today running at 3.5k Hz. In light wind It began to make power approx 500 watts at 80 Rpm. so I think as soon as I get the tach working I will be able to shut down the booster after it reaches 120 Rpm ( My cut in speed)and the output too low problem will be solved. One odd side effect though The coil begins to ring and you can hear the ringing at the turbine as well. I expected the ringing at the booster ,but not at the tower.  ??? By the way, I am using Flux's 1/2 wave Booster circuit I found while browsing the forum.

gww

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 08:06:34 PM »
It has been awhile, have you made any more adjustments?
gww

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2013, 08:30:48 AM »
Update:
 I still have the tower on the ground. I have added weight to the tail This time 10 lbs. also I am adding 4 guys mid way between the primary and secondary in an effort to reduce the wobble. I am hoping that I can raise the tower early next week after memorial day seems like when the weather gets nice other things take priority.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 12:06:11 AM »
What is the tilt of the tail pivot's axis?  You might consider increasing it to delay the onset of furling.

demorgan

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2013, 09:18:19 AM »
I did consider that , but since  I did not make provisions for adjustments on the angle adding weight is the only solution for now. I may make the tail adjustable on future projects.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2013, 02:15:46 AM »
Or just bring it down, cut it off, and re-weld it at a steeper angle.

gww

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Re: 48v turbine output too low
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2013, 04:50:59 PM »
demorgan
Any update?
Thanks
gww