Author Topic: What is the advantage of pitch to stall over pitch to feather?  (Read 7337 times)

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Smithson

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What is the advantage of pitch to stall over pitch to feather?
« on: September 17, 2013, 09:27:11 PM »
I believe there are two kinds of variable pitch.  Correct me if I am wrong.  First there is pitch to feather where the leading edge of the blades come around to face the wind.  The Jacobs machine is an example.  Second there is a pitch to stall.  On this variable pitch the trailing edge of the blades swing toward the wind to produce stall.  My thinking is that the side facing systems on this site (clockwise rotating blades only) and on the Scoraig web site are a pitch to stall because in effect as the machine swings around the trailing edge of the blades are meeting the wind first.  A passive stall.   

So what I wonder is why isn't a pitch to feather used on these side facing machine.  Is it a matter of taste or is there a logic behind it?  Also can a blade that is made for pitch to stall be used on a pitch to feather setup?

Thank you.    Archie Smith

Royalwdg

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Re: What is the advantage of pitch to stall over pitch to feather?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 09:53:40 PM »
Hi Archie.  When I got tired of the inconsistant furling that my 20' axiel was giving me with a swinging tail I set out to develope my own fly-weight gov. At first I was pitching the leading edge forward. The increased pitch produced more lift.  The angle was better but the lift was more than I expected so it didn't slow down much.  I then re-arranged my linkages and weight arms to send the trailing edges forward like an airplane wing as the airplane noses up slightly as it sets down.  That works great.  The turbine stays in the wind and maintains full rpm right at the furling speed.  I hope this helps a little.   Dave Moller

dnix71

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Re: What is the advantage of pitch to stall over pitch to feather?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 09:58:25 PM »
Feathering a blade is much more difficult for the do it yourselfer. Fixed blades are easier to make and maintain. But you need some kind of overspeed prevention and using the tail to turn into the wind is simple and effective. The blade feather of a Jacobs allows a wider range of operating winds.

I don't think the direction of rotation is a factor.

Flux

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Re: What is the advantage of pitch to stall over pitch to feather?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2013, 03:30:48 AM »
This is not easy, I am not entirely sure I know what you are asking and if you are asking what I think I may not be able to explain it.

When you pitch a blade to feather you rotate it so that the neutral axis is in line with the wind so that it produces no lift. If you pitch to stall you increase the angle of attack above a critical angle ( typically 15 deg) so that the blade stalls and produces  relatively low lift.

For a turbine you have to think of this very differently to an aeroplane, so although it is not immediately obvious the Jacobs machine pitches to feather ( but it never fully feathers).

The Proven machine pitches to stall.

From the operating point of view, the pitch to feather machine need a mechanism that can rotate the blades to something over 45deg and as Dave said you get little reduction in power or speed unless you can get this sort of angle. Depending how you are operating at the control point, your first movement will most likely increase the lift and may have the opposite effect if you are running near stalled. The pitch to feather system reduces thrust and tower loading by extracting less energy from the wind.

The pitch to stall can be achieved by quite a small angle change as most machines are near stall at full rating ( non mppt machines). Wind loading goes up as you are presenting full blade area to the wind and reducing power to the alternator by making the blades inefficient rather than reducing extraction.

Now the bit where I am lost, you seem to be referring to the side furling arrangement, which is not a pitch control mechanism. The simplest way to regard it as reducing power by reducing the effective area exposed to the wind, the frontal area is reduced by the cosine of the angle of furl.

If only life really was that simple it would be a wonderful situation, what really happens is very complex and way beyond my maths to explain. In some parts of the swept circle a blade stays similar to below furling, in other parts it goes into stall and in other parts it comes more out of stall.

The net effect is that if the offset is large it behaves much like the simple reducing area model and power does fall something like the cosine law.

The complication comes from a component that is not predicted by the simple area reduction idea and the blade has a force component that tries to keep it directly into the wind ( some of us have called it a wind seeking force). If the offset is too small this seeking force will defeat the moment of thrust on the alternator offset radius trying to turn it out of the wind and it will never furl. You can take the tail off and it will run upwind and produce power until it burns out. In this destructive mode the wind flow behind the prop will force the tail against the wind to a large angle and those not familiar with this problem will convince themselves it is furling.

The critical offset depends on the blade profile and type of loading so may be very different for different turbines, the Bergey machine will work with an offset well below any home built machine ( I don't know why but it is something to do with the blades as I have been told that changing the blades to wooden home made ones will cause the furling to fail completely).

As I am not entirely sure that this is what you are asking I will leave it at that. If the question is about reversing the blade rotation on a side furling machine the this has been discussed before, it has neglible effect on the furling but has some efrect on blades striking the tower. It affects the direction of the gyro force during yaw and depending on what that does to the friction of the yaw pivot it may marginally affect furling or the critical offset.

It most certainly is not changing the machine from pitch to furl to pitch to stall, it just isn't a pitch control scheme and doesn't work that way.

Flux

Smithson

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Re: What is the advantage of pitch to stall over pitch to feather?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2013, 10:36:32 AM »
Thank you all for your comments.  My terminology was confusing.  Let me try again.  Lets say you are facing the front of a side facing system with the blades to the right and the tail offset to the left.  Also lets say the blades are clockwise rotating with a 10 degree pitch.  As it furls the blades have to first come forward 10 degrees until they are flat to the wind putting a lot of pressure on the blades.  I called this a pitch to stall when it probably is not.  I never understood why the blades were not just cut counterclockwise to take that pressure off the blades immediately.  What I called a pitch to feather.

Where I was confused was thinking that with the machine made just the opposite, blades to the left and tail to the right, (clockwise rotation) that this was still what I call a pitch to stall, (my wording).  It is not.  I was wrong.  It is (and again my wording) a pitch to feather.  When I visualize a side facing system I think of blades right, tail left.  I'm still 8 years behind.  That is the way I made my 8 foot machine and never (yet) put up.

I always thought of the side facing system as a "cop out".  I saw a system in a 70's book with a door hinge on the tail.  But the Wind Power Recipe Book has brought a new science to side furling and I am impressed.

What I think now is that if a system has clockwise blades it need to spin around the yaw clockwise.  If it has counterclockwise blades it needs to turn round the yaw counterclockwise.

Thank you again.     Archie Smith

midwoud1

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Re: What is the advantage of pitch to stall over pitch to feather?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2013, 04:43:35 PM »
Archie is talking about pitch to stall ,or negative  pitchcontrol causing stall.
I have a system with pitch to feather or positive pitchcontrol and fix tail.
When the blade tip angle is over 15 degrees there is also a stall effect with + pitch.
Advantage : The prop has +/- a constant speed with variable windspeed.
With full feather minimum blade surface in the wind.
Flux can  bring it better under words than I can.
It's a combination of Windspeed , Rpm , Blade-angle , Blade-profile , Generator torque load.
- Frans -
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 04:48:22 PM by midwoud1 »