Author Topic: Question remote generating/pumping. (Read 2758 times)

Gary · « **on:** March 29, 2018, 09:31:49 AM »

I have a need for a low power system to pump water. The wind is badly masked where the pump needs to be. I have seen servo motor applications where a driven unit tracks the position of a driving unit degree for degree. One application was wind direction sender and receiver and saw reference to steering on navy ships. Can a pair of Fisher and Paykel style permanent magnet appliance motors be adapted for this application? 100 watts would be adequate and the separation would be around one hundred feet. I have a head welded up with tail, shaft and bearings and a 5 blade 80-inch fan. The rope and cup type pump has a start load equal to or more than running load which will need to be dealt with somehow for it to get along with a wind driven prop.
This or something like it is what I want to do, suggestions of an Aermotor or grid power or a nuclear reactor would not be helpful.

OperaHouse · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2018, 01:51:11 PM »

Those take power to work. just what are you pumping, 100W seem pretty small. A linear current booster attached to a generator attached to some wind as I mentioned in another thread is usually used if the speed of the pump is not critical.

Gary · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2018, 02:50:39 PM »

Thanks for responding. Am pumping water from a stream up into a pond. A group from Holland developed the crude but effective rope and washer pump for third world applications. They found that small adults in the third world can produce 50w cranking or pedaling for an extended period of time. This will pump 5 gallons per minute from a depth of 60 feet. A lot more head than I need. My stream doesn't always supply that much so no need to overbuild. I'm currently using two hydraulic ram pumps (water powered water pumps) that pump 2 gallons per minute but I can use more and am simply interested in doing something different.

I'll look for your post.

Mary B · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2018, 05:35:26 PM »

Solar is far better for this application than wind if you have a clear spot for it...

Otherwise take 2 blades off that 5 blade rotor for better speed and the F&P will produce 100 watts IF you have the wind. What is your location and average wind speed?

Gary · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2018, 08:23:33 AM »

Thanks for responding. I'm a late comer on this F&P use/mod as a generator. Your suggestion of 3 blades yielding 100w, Is that for unmodified F&P with 3 phase output? Or modified and rectified for 12v dc?

Re solar:
Searched for 12v pump for low pressure and 5 gallons/min. Not finding.

Is F&P motor driving the thirld world pump as mentioned a possibility?

Mary B · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2018, 06:48:16 PM »

I would rewire the F&P to match your battery bank. Info is over on The Back Shed site. You get a better power match. Unless you plan on using an MPPT controller for the wind turbine?

Need to know what part of the country you are in to really make a recommendation... some areas are better for PV some have the wind to support a turbine. Where I am in SW MN my average wind speed is 18mph, it is windy here and Buffalo Ridge 30 miles to my south west is one of the top wind turbine sites in the nation.

This pump might fit your needs https://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-dc-transfer-pump-63324.html

Gary · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2018, 08:56:09 PM »

The specs of the pump meet the target, thanks. At the price a person could try one and see how it holds up.

Go back to my original post. No batteries. A F&P motor used as a generator driven by wind.
About 100' of wire connecting it to a second F&P motor (used as a pump motor).

When the wind blows enough it pumps, when the wind blows hard it pumps a lot of water.

Simply wired together?
Perhaps a centrifugal clutch to let the prop spool up to a speed that will produce enough power to start the pump?

I'm sure that solar would be feasible. I'd like to develop something different. Perhaps something to add to the collection of alternate energy world.

I'm not just theorizing here. I have the head, blades coming monday, two Whirlpool F&P type motors purchased today. I have a Bridgeport mill, 6 x 36 metal lathe, a welder, a test pole outside my shop and a budget to build whatever I need. I just lack information and would prefer to get it from someone with experience than slugging it out myself.

Thank you for responding and also those viewing.

I've learned that using the search feature in Chrome using search_term_whatever site:Fieldlines.com works far better than the search function on this site. Example "F & P anything" fails on this site. Finds tons on Chrome.

OperaHouse · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2018, 02:26:20 AM »

Sorry to see the pump is chromeish. That stuff never lasts, it used to be brass. With a F&P motor, higher voltage is better, You might be able to just get away with a 12V 10A switching power supply. If not it can be modded.

Gary · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2018, 07:50:50 AM »

You've lost me.

There is no 12 volts.

Go back to my original post. No batteries. A F&P motor used as a generator driven by wind.
About 100' of wire connecting it to a second F&P motor powering a fabricated thirld world pump.

When the wind blows enough it pumps, when the wind blows hard it pumps a lot of water.

Simply wired together?
Perhaps a centrifugal clutch to let the prop spool up to a speed that will produce enough power to start the pump.

Gary · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2018, 08:18:46 AM »

Looks like I can't post an external link but to see what I am talking about - Search Youtube for "Fisher and Paykel generator directly running another one"

This is what I am talking about.
Video only shows that if two ECM motors wired together and one is made to turn so will the other.
Nothing provided about torque, curves, speeds, volts, amps, power and most comments are the usual hippy dippy stuff.

I don't expect specific answers to these questions here but since members here have experience with these motors, they might give me some pertinent information.

Would rewiring for high current low voltage transfer more power?
What would a wind prop think about starting and running this?
Would a normal speed range for a three or five bladed prop work?

JW · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2018, 12:21:29 PM »

Gary you will be able to post an external link after 20 posts. Since I became in charge here we reduced that from 50 posts to 20. Hang in there.

It is because of spammers

Mary B · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2018, 06:17:41 PM »

The one being driven will be at really reduced power... might not even turn with enough torque to run a pump.

TDC · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2018, 07:11:54 PM »

Quote from: Gary on March 29, 2018, 09:31:49 AM

I have a need for a low power system to pump water. The wind is badly masked where the pump needs to be. I have seen servo motor applications where a driven unit tracks the position of a driving unit degree for degree.

A servo motor can be setup to track another, but externally powered electronics is required. You certainly can power an electric pump with wind power, but solar is lot easier and cheaper. Can't find a 5 GPM, 12v pump? I can help, what lift/pressure is needed?

dnix71 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2018, 07:40:07 PM »

These are cheap and run from 12v to 24v dc. They mention battery powered system, but straight solar should work as long as you have a controller that sets a relay when the voltage is high enough to work, or have a large super capacitor to buffer the solar and prevent short cycling.

https://www.amazon.com/Submersible-Solar-Battery-Alternate-Energy/dp/B00DPWOF24

OperaHouse · « **Reply #14 on:** April 01, 2018, 03:08:39 AM »

It might work. As with many youtube videos, it is a teaser and doesn't actually show it performing anything useful. I have concerns with low speed performance. There will be slip. Doesn't seem like you would have much trouble duplicating this test at the appropriate speed with a load. For best energy transfer over distance keep motors as they are (high voltage).

Gary · « **Reply #15 on:** April 01, 2018, 09:20:54 AM »

12 foot lift 5 gallons/ min. University of Michigan Engineering Department developed a human powered pump, simple, cheap, durable @ 5 GPM @ 60' lift. Human power = 50 watts or less steady state.

The Amazon pump listed above is typical deep well =230 feet 1.6gpm. Requires 285 W. Way off my requirements.

The Harbor Freight Transfer pump suggested earlier is appropriate. If I didn't want to use the third world UM pump I might be able to use it. Would likely need a different motor for durability. Like a F&P.

Any notice that about half the responses are like the old restaurant skit on Saturday Nite Live? Whatever you order your are asked if substituting a chee-burger and Pepsi is OK? But that's OK, takes me less time to read than for you to write and there might be a gold nugget in there somewhere.

Thanks,
Gary

dnix71 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 01, 2018, 10:54:58 AM »

Gary, I don't know what you saw following my link, but the specs for the Amazon pump are 4 amps max at 24v. That's 100 watts. A verified buyer said his pull 3 amps on a long wire run in a deep well. This forum's own DanF has an article on direct solar water pumping here: https://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/pv-direct-water-pumping

Gary · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2018, 11:54:10 AM »

Thanks dnix71,
I found the 4A @ 24v reference.

I found 235 w panel required in an answered question.

Oops not the same as using 235 watts and re-reading saw that the seller wasn't answering the question.

Careless research, me. Thanks

OperaHouse · « **Reply #18 on:** April 01, 2018, 12:40:13 PM »

"Oops not the same as using 235 watts"

Or is it? I wouldn't think of using a panel smaller than that and it wouldn't be a battery rated panel. I would use a grid tie panel of at least 280W. These are the cheapest panel you can buy. Let's get things strait. Is this for third world or US?

Gary · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2018, 05:39:29 PM »

Thanks for the info OperaHouse,

If I want to I could a do solar in addition to what I want to hobby with.

Online looks like a real price dip at 235 and 250 watt panels.

100 watts are available for $108.99 with over 4,000 sold by one vendor on ebay. Looks like a bargin compared to the rest.

Third world? Who is trading raw materials for manufactured goods. You tell me.

Gary · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2018, 09:08:51 PM »

OperaHouse,

It's 10 minutes from where the Pony Express Started and Jesse James ended.
That puts it right in the middle of the US.

OperaHouse · « **Reply #21 on:** April 02, 2018, 09:19:12 AM »

I've bought locally from installers 800 miles away from each other. The small guys are happy with single panel sales to get rid of a odd panel left over from a pallet. 280W for less than $170 out the door. I just needed to know your design criteria. My understanding is 50W is a lot of wind. You ought to try the two motor idea. It can always be converter later.

Bruce S · « **Reply #22 on:** April 02, 2018, 09:40:44 AM »

Gary;
I've read your post(s) about this.
There's a couple things you'll need to know/understand.
Can you rewire them to do this, probably. However, more than likely the 1st F&P will need to be built so the power output is greater than what the 2nd one needs, otherwise the power will merely dissipate into the 2nd's windings , similar to to building a water heated by solar panels, ya gotta get over the hump needed to start the heating/power to start the 2nd one moving.

The reference to 3rd world was a qualified question. In some parts of the "3rd world" you can get parts the USA cannot.

The University design team also knew that human power is at startup ~750 watts , unsustainable long term, but using that information and allowing for the startup torque a human can produce, the ~50w isn't going to work very well, NOT to mention the 100 foot distance and the voltage drop you're going to incur .

What others are possibly trying to help you with understanding; is the real world power you're going to need since water comes in about 8lbs/gal.

I read the inference to the SNL thing and almost posted a MOD warning, but held off to see how it was going to workout. Please try to remember People here help because they want to, not because they have to. Some post other possibilities, those are not meant as a distraction but as merely other possibilities .

Harold in CR · « **Reply #23 on:** April 02, 2018, 10:11:40 AM »

Gary, have you visited any videos from Gerard Morin on youtube ? He has hooked 2 of the F&P motors together and shows exactly how. He shows usage of the generated power, BUT, he also has a way of using Voltage with milliamps to power things. He shows a small battery running things through some electronic devices. He experiments a lot and shows results.

You might try to look for him and maybe pick up some useful tips. I would be very interested in what you do come up with. I have a very similar project but 120' to pump uphill to a pond and a minimum of 20 GPM@3' of head that could be improved. I have 2 shallow well piston pumps, bought on ebay, that will pump 5 gallons per minute up a 178' hill elevation. Look for Deming, Gould, and Meyers pumps.

My plan is run a double waterwheel directly to the 2 paralleled pumps that will shove water uphill. That way, no electric needed.

Gary · « **Reply #24 on:** April 02, 2018, 04:00:42 PM »

Bruce S,
â€œGary;
I've read your post(s) about this.
There's a couple things you'll need to know/understand.
Can you rewire them to do this, probably. However, more than likely the 1st F&P will need to be built so the power output is greater than what the 2nd one needs, otherwise the power will merely dissipate into the 2nd's windings , similar to to building a water heated by solar panels, ya gotta get over the hump needed to start the heating/power to start the 2nd one moving.
That's fine, I am well versed in the Law of Conservation of Energy and certainly not expecting any perpetual motion with more energy coming out than going in. This dissipation you mention; are you referring to simple heating of the motor coils if stalled? I'm not aware of any â€œhumpâ€ to start heating water with solar or anything else. As soon as the temperature of the heating-material exceeds the temperature of the to-be-heated material heat transfer begins.

â€œThe University design team also knew that human power is at startup ~750 watts , unsustainable long term, but using that information and allowing for the startup torque a human can produce, the ~50w isn't going to work very wellâ€
I couldn't find anything about this 750 w startup need at the University of Michigan site. Can you point me to it? I can understand additional energy being required for an instant at startup but a spinning prop has a great deal of stored energy that could be used to overcome the startup load, it's just a matter of putting it to use.

â€œNOT to mention the 100 foot distance and the voltage drop you're going to incur.â€
It appears that a benefit of using these F&P type devises is the high voltage to reduce I^2 R loses, just like the power company does. #14 copper wire is cheap enough and has only 0.25 oms/100 feet. If I ended up with some design that the voltage was low enough that 5 amps were required the I^2 *R loss would only be 5*5*0.25*2 = 12.5 W.

What others are possibly trying to help you with understanding; is the real world power you're going to need since water comes in about 8lbs/gal.
8 lb/gal * 5 gal/min * 12 ft rise = 480 ft lb/ min.
The conversion of ft lbs of energy to watts is 0.023 W per ft lb so
480 ft lb/min * 0.023 = 11 Watts
Say the pump is only 50% efficient that would require 22 watts + the wire loss of 12.5 Watts = 34.5 Watts.
Per Piggotts â€Wind Power Workshopâ€ I can expect an 80â€ prop generator to develop around 50 W at 10mph which is easy to come by around here. Do you see an error in the background of what I propose?

Hopefully I can soon switch from proposing to realizing, the big brown truck just delivered my fan.

Gary · « **Reply #25 on:** April 02, 2018, 04:11:41 PM »

" Gary, have you visited any videos from Gerard Morin on youtube"

I certainly looked but looks like he has dozens of hours on youtube and I didn't find the F&P generator/motor pair you spoke of. Part of what I did see is that he and I are not on the same wavelength and/or definitions of words in his vocabulary are quite different than mine. I think I will stay in my space and leave him to his.

I would like to see the specific video you mentioned if you can direct me to it. Otherwise I should have one F&P spinning in a vertical mill connected to another on my bench and see for myself.

Harold in CR · « **Reply #26 on:** April 02, 2018, 05:45:20 PM »

Post removed to prevent chaos.

JW · « **Reply #27 on:** April 02, 2018, 06:06:41 PM »

Can it mentioned that today and yesterday even with this site traffic we made a whole 20 cents each day. Ive got some problem on my end and will get us back up, the whole problem as you increase SEO increases spammer.

So your damed if you do damed if you don't.

I think Gary is a viable user

Mary B · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2018, 06:08:09 PM »

Without knowing what part of the USA you are in it is impossible to give real advice on anything wind related... because a design for my 18mph average wind will not work in states with an average 12mph!

JW · « **Reply #29 on:** April 02, 2018, 06:27:45 PM »

Quote from: Gary

Am pumping water from a stream up into a pond. A group from Holland developed the crude but effective rope and washer pump for third world applications. They found that small adults in the third world can produce 50w cranking or pedaling for an extended period of time. This will pump 5 gallons per minute from a depth of 60 feet. A lot more head than I need.

Gary · « **Reply #30 on:** April 03, 2018, 07:59:54 AM »

Quote from: Mary B on April 02, 2018, 06:08:09 PM

Without knowing what part of the USA you are in it is impossible to give real advice on anything wind related... because a design for my 18mph average wind will not work in states with an average 12mph!

Mary,
Thank you for your interest. The location is just outside of Saint Joseph Missouri USA. Our "Area" is certainly viable because the big boys have installed hundreds if not thousands of turbines near here. A specific location on our place is a crap shoot. Hill, pond, forest nearby... Fortunately I don't need to put up a hundred, only one or two, and I don't need continuous power. As I wrote earlier, if the wind blows, it pumps, if the wind blows hard it pumps a lot. In either case its more than now. I don't need an average of 18 or even 12. Any over a threshold (to be determined) will pump something.

The forecast for today by hour starting at 8:00 am is 11,11,15,18,20,22,23,25,26,25,26,23,23 mph. Which seems better than average but it is windy around here. I'm reminded every time I want to spray weeds!

Could you point me to a description of your installation? To me information works like dynamite, if more is better, too much is just right.

Gary · « **Reply #31 on:** April 06, 2018, 08:47:15 AM »

Harold in CR,

Sorry for the delay, your private messages didn't make it through google's spam filter where I almost never check. I've marked as ok so shouldn't happen again. Thanks for the link to the Moran youtubes.

Indeed he has two F&P type motors spinning on one shaft. Confused me at first but he finally explained that he is using a big gutted out electric motor as a test stand. Looks like a cast, totally enclosed motor. With its original bearings in place and a bare shaft to fit, it makes a great arbor to spin things on. Easily available as junk and I don't know why it couldn't be used for a wind or water turbine permanently. Some bearings might not like an end load. Something to consider.

Second he is powering what appears to be an F&P motor with a http://www.anaheimautomation.com/manuals/brushless/L011088%20-%20BSCKB1-120081%20Users%20Guide.pdf with a suggested price of $217. !20v line input three phase output. (finally managed to pause the video and turned my monitor upside down to read what it was)

The second one on the shaft he shorts the windings together, makes it hard to turn and says he's using as a brake load for the one he is testing.
No information on either motor or if they are modified. He shows he generating over 1,000v at unknown current somewhere.

Harold in CR · « **Reply #32 on:** April 06, 2018, 09:08:42 AM »

There are other videos. After no response I held off sending more links because of the other info he shows. If you like, I will dig out the other videos where he does the simple mods to get his motor turning.

I especially like the placements of the new hall sensors that show his barely running motor still shoving out ungodly torque with just under 2 amps of input to that motor. He has a much smaller generator hooked to that motor in a later video because he says there is so much waste of usage from the washer motor as a generator.

News:

Author Topic: Question remote generating/pumping. (Read 2758 times)