Author Topic: Question about Stator  (Read 1890 times)

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Wisdom Bear

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Question about Stator
« on: May 18, 2018, 02:58:31 PM »
This may have been answered before, if so please tell me where.
What happens besides adding drag if you add a stator to each side of your rotors?

I can see drag which equals heat but would it increase your watts output?

hiker

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hiker

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2018, 05:53:54 PM »
Invalid link......just enter ...duel stators...in the search box...ton of info their..yes it's been done before.......😜
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JW

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Wisdom Bear

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2018, 09:15:28 PM »
Maybe I said this wrong.
How about Triple Stator with duel Rotors.
A main stator with rotor each side then a stator outside of each rotor to use the magnets power on the backside of the rotors.
I believe this is what I am asking about?

Thanks for the answers.

Wisdom Bear

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2018, 09:25:02 PM »
JW
Your link has come the closest to what I am thinking.
Still looking at the standard stator with rotor plates on each side but add another set of stator plates to the outside to use the magnet field off the back side of the rotors?

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2018, 12:11:35 AM »
Maybe I said this wrong.
How about Triple Stator with duel Rotors.
A main stator with rotor each side then a stator outside of each rotor to use the magnets power on the backside of the rotors.
I believe this is what I am asking about?

First:  You want the stator between two rotors (consisting of magnets on a disk of magnetic material to "connect" the poles on the sides of the magnets opposite the coils).  You want a strong magnetic field through the stator.  If you put the magnets between two stators, without another layer of magnets and rotors to "complete the circuit" for the magnetic field, your magnetic field circuit is completed through air.  Air has a relative (to vacuum) permeability of almost exactly 1.  Iron, steels, etc. (depending on type) have relative permeabilities in the several thousand to several tens of thousands range.  Build your sandwich with the magnets between the coils and the ends open, and you've increased your air-gap from fractions of an inch to feet.  You drastically cut your mag field, and thus your output voltage.

Second:  To get the most out of a given amount of magnet material, you want the gap between the magnets (in which the copper sits) to be about as thick as the sum of the thickness of the two magnets that are facing each other and creating the field through the coil.  Starting from a thin set of coils and a small gap, as you add more copper, thicken the coils, and move the magnets apart to make room, you add generation from more copper more than you lose generation from less mag field due to the larger gap.  But that flattens out, then turns down.  When your coils are thick you gain less generation from adding still more copper than you lose to weakened mag field from increased gap.  The maximum (assuming the mechanical clearance gap is zero) is with the thicknesses equal.  (But it's not too critical, because the curve is horizontal at the max and gradually turns down going away from it.  So you can go tens of percent, and goof around with some clearance between the coils and the poles, without substantial loss of power.)

Third:  If you want to stack two stators with a double-sided magnet rotor between them and a single-sided magnet rotor on each end face of the sandwich, that works.  But to keep the field up in the gaps you need the magnets in the middle to be twice as thick as the ones on the ends.  So you might as well put steel disks across the middle of those magnets.  (The field at the poles would be unchanged, because it's not going sideways to adjacent magnets.)  But then you can split the magnets at the central disks, move the disks apart on the shaft (now the field DOES go through the disks to the back of the sideways-adjacent magnet, rather than through the disk to the along-the-axis-adjacent magnet) but the field at the poles is STILL unchanged (if the central disks are thick enough to carry the field well).  Now you have two completely separate generators stacked along the same shaft, with exactly the same performance as if you had the double-thick magnets in the middle supported by a plastic disk.  You end up using the same amount of magnet material and copper, which are your big costs.

Fourth:  If you stack two generators you get twice the power.  But if you use the same coils and magnets to make a SINGLE generator with twice the poles and twice the radius, you get FOUR times the power from the same magnets and coils at the same RPM (and four times the torque).  You get one doubling from having twice as many magnets and coils (doubling the current or the voltage depending on how you wired them), and another from cycling twice as fast due to the poles being passed by twice as many magnets per shaft turn (doubling the voltage again).

Keep it simple and you get more out of it.

An UP side to building two genies is that if one fails (in a way that doesn't stop the other) the other may still be working, giving you power, while you're fixing the fried one.  That convenience may be worth getting half as much power from a given amount of magnet material.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 12:44:08 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Wisdom Bear

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2018, 03:41:26 PM »

First:  You want the stator between two rotors (consisting of magnets on a disk of magnetic material to "connect" the poles on the sides of the magnets opposite the coils).  You want a strong magnetic field through the stator.

( I understand this. But what I am asking is would adding stators on the outside of the rotors pick up more power from the backside of the MAIN field? I realize that having to rotors facing each other with magnets North South of each other makes a STRONGER field. But what about the other side of that field? Can it be used although at a much less output?)

 If you put the magnets between two stators, without another layer of magnets and rotors to "complete the circuit" for the magnetic field, your magnetic field circuit is completed through air. 

JW

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2018, 05:43:07 PM »
Quote
If you put the magnets between two stators, without another layer of magnets and rotors to "complete the circuit" for the magnetic field, your magnetic field circuit is completed through air. 

This would work but would be classified as a single rotor.

klsmurf

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2018, 06:55:41 PM »
If you set up your mag rotors properly,  you should have very little leakage out the back!
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Wisdom Bear

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2018, 08:16:19 PM »
Kismurk

Thank you
I didn't know that the magnetic field would mostly be pulled toward the center stator.
Does the field get eat up by the metal rotor? This would the side of the magnet that is glued to the rotor.
Really makes me have so many more questions.

Simen

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2018, 12:35:57 AM »

Does the field get eat up by the metal rotor? This would the side of the magnet that is glued to the rotor.

Kind of, but not exactly - the metal rotor 'conducts' the magnetic field from the back side of one magnet to the back side of the next magnet, which has opposite polarity, and thus, enhances the magnetic field in front of the magnets. (towards the stator.)

If the metal rotor are too thin, there would be some magnetic flux leaking through the backside of the rotor. In that case, you could harvest some power there, but very, very little, and far less than if the metal rotor are thick enough for the power of the magnets, to conduct all the magnetic flux toward the front of the magnets... :)
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2018, 04:02:39 AM »
The magnetic field is always continuous loops.  The field coming out the back of one magnet should be guided into the back of the next, to come out it's front (and from there to cross the gap, go through the opposing magnet, be guided by ITS disk, through the magnet opposing the first one, through THAT gap, and back into the front of the first magnet to complete the loop's circuit.)  This is how you get the maximum flux in the gap between the magnets, where the coils sit.

If the backing plate is too thin or too low in permeability, the reluctance (magnetic analogy of resistance) of the paths through the backs of the magnets and the disk will be higher.  So some of the magnetic flux will loop out the back of the rotor.  But some of the flux that would have gone through a thicker backing plate will instead become "leakage" flux (from the front to the back of the magnet, inside or beside it, "shorting out" the magnet).  This weakens the field in the pole-to-pole gap.  And some electrons may even flip their spin, permanently reducing the magnetization of the magnet and weakening the field further.

So you don't want to let the field loop out the back of the rotor and try to gain some power by sticking coils over it.  You'll lose far more in your between-the-poles coils than the tiny bit you'd gain in the added coil structure.

JW

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2018, 07:47:40 PM »
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=146453.0





Quote
  I don't think there is an answer to your question. For axials the most logical starting point is with trapezoidal magnets and coils but if you choose to use other shape magnets then logic goes out the window.

For a high efficiency conventionally loaded alternator your rectangular magnets would probably work best with the trapezoidal coils. but for direct battery charging, the circuit resistance has a lot to do with how much you can get out of the thing and changing to rectangular coils would reduce resistance way below the long turns of that trapezoidal coil.

If you are rectifying for direct battery charging then there is little doubt that coils roughly the shape of the magnets is the way to go, so rectangular coils for rectangular magnets and round coils for disc magnets. Even here resistance is a big factor and you may be better off squashing round coils to ellipses. Any turn smaller than the magnet will not link all the flux and won't contribute full voltage, but it will contribute very little resistance and you usually get an overall gain.

How you load the thing has a big influence on how it behaves and use of material and how much you can get out without frying is what you are really optimising for direct battery charging, efficiency has to suffer to get a match to the blades. If you load conventionally with resistors or with a mppt inverter then efficiency can be a factor and it changes a lot of the requirements.

Flux
 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 07:57:01 PM by JW »

Wisdom Bear

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Re: Question about Stator
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2018, 09:38:21 PM »
Thanks to all.
Now I understand that the rotor material has a LOT to do with how your magnets proform.