My new VAWT Design I need help with

[hatch789]

Hello Everyone, Chris Moore here... I used to run a really well attended and respected forum for research into all kinds of technology from hydroxy research, and pulse motors to metal casting and machine work... but I couldn't keep up with the needs of the forum so I let things die away. Sad but true.

Anyway I've discussed things with many of you over the years and now I come to you for some much needed information. Specifically this Wind forum. I'm looking for is some help in coming up with good ways to prove my design's performance characteristics. I just filed my provisional patent on my VAWT design 5/22/18. So it's safe for me to talk about it and reveal everything. What I need help with is the prototyping phase. So I'm hoping you guys will be willing to assist me with some brain power and heavy lifting in that area. If you're just going to say ah VAWT's suck don't do them... Then I'm not interested in that type of feedback. If your'e willing to substantiate why my VAWT design would be poor in various areas then I'm happy to listen.

I don't have a lot of money so CFD is kind of out of the question right now unless someone here has access to it and would help me to that end. My design performs well in small live tests I have done from models built on my 3D printers. I need to create the generator next to couple with my design and get some real data. I think I can do some torque calculations with string and a weight. I have a few ideas about how to do that but could use some math to back it up.

So if anyone is interested in helping me again I'd be grateful. It's an innovative design never before seen (at least according to 2 exhaustive patent searches) so I'm hopeful that I'm onto something really solid here.

Right now I am after 2 things:
1. I would love to see some way to cheaply calculate my toque and output potential of my turbine blades.
2. I'm in need of design discussion for my generator. Is this the place to discuss generator designs for my VAWT or is there a better forum sub-board for that?

The video to help you understand at least the blade turbines can be found at: youtu.be/RyMraF4DXFI

I have not yet done a video on the Generator. That's in the works.

[hiker]

Stacked barrel design...but with retractable blades...looks cool..

[hatch789]

Thank you but if anyone has some easy methods to measure torque that would be most appreciated. I was toying with the idea of taping a piece of string to my shaft and using a smooth rod to direct the string off of the shaft (parallel to the ground) but then it would hang down directly from that rod say 3' long with a weight on the end. In this manner I could just let the string dangle off the shaft and the weight would just slowly twist down below but then once the turbine was up to a steady speed I could sweep the rod under the string out at 90 degrees to the shaft and it would start winding up. This would let me measure the duration for the weight to move vertically a hence give me some parameters for my calculations. When the weight reaches the top I just remove the rod and the weight just falls back down and unravels from the shaft to once again be dangling there.

Again, just trying to keep this simple but effective. -Suggestions welcome.

[electrondady1]

search for "prony brake"

[hatch789]

Pony Brakes won't be practical in my small model. From reading it sounds like I can do a simple equation to use a string and weight. Setup as I have described in my last post and lift the known weight a known hieght. By measuring the seconds it took to do this in a known wind speed, I should have a wattage calculation. Right?

(Mass x 9.81 x Height ) / time  ::: Mass in killograms, height in meters, time in seconds.
Example: let's say my little turbine lifts .1kg  1 meter in 30 seconds

(.1 x 9.81 x 1) / .5 = 1.962 watts ...is that right?
wait ... in another calculation that was divided by seconds meaning (.1 x 9.81 x 1) / 30 = 29.43 watts ...is this the correct answer or the first 1.962 watts?

This will give me my wattage rating if I'm not mistaken ...I think at that point I'll have some good numbers to start doing my generator calculations. Meaning my watts at the turbine blades could be the theoretical max that the generator could produce if there were no losses. -Am I on target here or way off base?

[Mary B]

You could also connect a small known permanent magnet generator. Slowly add load until you reach stall. Should be able to go from there to calculate the available torque.

Design wise your furling gears are going to need to be stout, going to be a LOT of stress in that area of each blade. Standard vawt mounting issues will arise, bending force on the central shaft is going to be high.

As far as output? With that drag style blade it won't be a barn burner but will produce... I know a few on here have experimented with lift style VAWT designs and have seen decent output.

[hatch789]

Thank you Mary, I think I might be after watts more than I want torque. Because then I could immediately go from Watts (potential) at the turbine blades to theoretical max watts output on the generator. There will be losses of course but this little bugger has a lot of torque already. I really want to try the string and weight test perhaps tomorrow when I have some time off work. Provided it's windy outside. Of course the wind never blows when we want it to blow.

Do you know if my calculation is correct for watts? In my example I lift a .1 Kilo weight 1 meter in 30 seconds.
(.1 x 9.81 x 1) / 30 = 29.43 watts

Obviously that is just example numbers I won't have real numbers until I get a chance to test it.

[Bruce S]

hatch789;
I have a question.
Now that you have a "provisional patent" on this, will you be sharing those findings?
I'm all for a person making a good living, but a patent?

Since it maybe very possible the information the garnered from this forum will assist you in obtaining a completed design that could also assist you with additional income; will this forum's brain power be compensated?

I don't believe in disparaging  another type of windmill just to promote your device is cool either.

I do like the cute little 3D printed one you show on your U-tube vid.
I'd be more inclined to buy one of those than a full scale one.

We've been down this path before with people coming here to obtain help getting it. Then when asked for pictures or design details, being told NO they can't show it to us because they're getting a patent.

Ed Lenz's VAWT design was copied by a large company, he wasn't even mentioned as the inventor . & his remains one of the most useful and copied all over U-Tube.

Bruce S

[JW]

Bruce as someone who has been granted 3 US Utility patents I have never seen a red cent from.

The provisional patent is a relatively new thing, I guess it attempts to beat the 1 year deadline, of disclosing the embodiment. Im not sure though.

I have let my patents lapse. And share the technical details with everyone. In theory patents are supposed to teach.

Even to get a provisional patent  it costs $5,000. Then you have to file an actual patent and that's about $15,000. If you get into litigation to defend a patent that's $250,000.

I did much research and if you really want to teach, a utility patent is great. But don't expect to make any money. Maintenance Fees will eat you alive.

There was an interesting article that I read, before I got my first patent.

The Case Against Patents
https://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf     

[hatch789]

A certain moderator pulled my original post because he saw it as me promoting my website which discusses topics forbidden here. I was trying to help people understand who I was, that's all. If you guys dig a bit you will instantly have the answers to Bruce S's concerns. Everything I have done for the past 20 years has been open source. But on your forum I am a nobody and so I am mistrusted. My dream in life is to create tech to help everyone, not companies. To make us better as a society and to help heal our so badly mistreated mother to us all. Do some due diligence and you will see just who and what has wandered onto your forum asking now for some help where for years it has been the other way around. If you wish for me to leave, you have but to speak the words.

[hiker]

I belive its just that ..you caught us off gaurd..with just a huge ..first project...for me it's just a hobby...others live by it..! I would really like to see your project succeed ....😜

[Adriaan Kragten]

Measuring of the torque for a generator or a wind turbine is rather difficult but there are several options. Measuring of the torque for a generator is rather easy if the generator has a shaft which is strong enough to take the generators weight if the generator is only connected to the shaft. The generator is provided by a lever and a thin rope at the end which is connected to a balance to measure the force in the rope. This option is described in my report KD 595 which can be copied for free from my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl. The force F hast to be measured in N and the length of the lever in m to get the torque Q in Nm. The mechanical power P (in W) is then given by: P = Q * pi * n / 30. (n is the rotational speed in rpm so you also need a device to measure n).

In you want to measure the rotor of a wind turbine, you basically can use a PM-generator as load and measure the torque in the same way. If the wind turbine has a vertical shaft, you need an auxiliary wheel to make that the rope is going from horizontal to vertical if you use a balance which can only be used if it is positioned normally. Measuring of only the electrical output of the generator and calculating the mechanical power and so torque is only possible if you know the generator efficiency for every load condition.

Measuring of the whole Q-n curve of the rotor for a certain wind speed V might give problems which depend on the shape of the Q-n curve. Generally the Q-n curve has a maximum for a certain tip speed ratio. If the Q-n curve of the load is a horizontal line, like we have with a brake of Prony, you only find stable working points for the part of the Q-n curve of the rotor which lies at the right side of the maximum. For the left side of the Q-n curve, the rotor curve will increase faster than the load curve at increasing rotational speeds and this means that the load is not able to maintain the rotational speed which belongs to the point of intersection of both curves.

If you use no brake of Prony but a generator as load, the Q-n curve of the generator will depend on the electrical load. It may be rising at increasing rotational speeds but if the Q-n curve of the rotor is increasing faster, you will still find no stable working point and this means that a part of the Q-n curve of the rotor can't be measured. I have measured several scale models of wind turbines in the wind tunnel of the University of Delft and a part of the Q-n curve of the rotor could not be measured for fast running rotors because of this problem.

[clockmanFRA]

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[hatch789]

I belive its just that ..you caught us off gaurd..with just a huge ..first project...for me it's just a hobby...others live by it..! I would really like to see your project succeed ....😜

I understand why you may have been caught off-guard but I've been at this for a very long time... I just normally work on my other channels.

Now that all of that's out of the way I am a "self taught" engineer and trying to just get some help on equations that I need to determine my design's output. To that end I'm still asking if anyone can verify if my equation is going to work to determine WATTS produced?

(Mass x 9.81 x Height ) / time  ::: Mass in killograms, height in meters, time in seconds.
Example: let's say my little turbine lifts .1kg  1 meter in 30 seconds

Meaning (.1 x 9.81 x 1) / 30 = 29.43 watts ...is this the correct answer in this example? I will use one pulley or smooth rod to let the string come off horizontally and dangle down.

[JW]

Im not sure if we have updated the FAQs section. but you have to be a user with 20 posts to post links. We get hit with a lot "hit and runs" or spam so that's how it works.

[SparWeb]

A few thoughts... not in any particular order...

We can do the math for you, but you could do it for yourself a lot faster:  https://en.smath.info/view/SMathStudio/summary
If you don't care to install a piece of software, you can also go to: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=f%3Dma
That website has lots of physics calculators.  Works with units for you, too.


It seems you've managed a forum in the past, so it shouldn't come as a surprise when some folks expect a new member to "give" a little before expecting some "take".  After all, if we were all here to "take", there would be no "getting" by anyone.  We do welcome new points of view and the new members that bring them.


I've done the lifting weight test myself.  It works rather well as long as you get the speed to stay (mostly) constant for the time you're taking measurements.  A video with your phone is often helpful because you can review it afterward frame by frame.  I also used a long stick with regularly spaced lines marked on it which make it possible to see the speed was constant.  If you need some way to get the pulley to start/stop when desired while the blades are already spinning, I think we can come up with some ideas for that to help, too.

[hatch789]

Hi SparWeb,

In particular order:

I'm not asking anyone to do any math for me I'm only asking if my math equation is correct or if I'm approaching it properly. I fully expect and intend on doing my own work. I'm just hoping to confirm that I'm doing it properly. I'm asking the community here who is versed in these equations to tell me if I'm on the right track. That is at the very core of helping to advance scientific knowledge and contributing to society.

Yes I've managed 2 forums in the past and it is no surprise to me that your group would expect me to give a little before taking. I have already done this in a number of ways but 1 introducing myself, 2 stating clearly that I'm merely looking for some help, 3 asking if my work and equations are correct, thereby showing my work I'm doing. Hopefully this agrees with your assessment as well.

I appreciate your input on the weight method and agree 100% it will be problematic if my wind source is gusting or changing rapidly so the video will definitely be a help in replaying it to ascertain stability in this regard and as you said a meter of some kind showing the gradual progress of the weights might be of use as well. It's not going to be perfect, I'm merely looking for some figures to start. Overall I plan on making a larger design for proper testing. Perhaps scoops measuring 2' in diameter but for now this small 160mm scoop model is all I have to work with so it will have to suffice for giving me some early sample data.