Author Topic: When the power goes out  (Read 22747 times)

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ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2022, 09:11:52 AM »
A Tesla in MN winter couldn't handle it when temps are -20f... 50+% of battery life is lost due to cold, another 50% is lost to the cabin heater. So that 250 mile range is now 62.5 miles and borderline for my use in winter.

Actually, that's pretty optimistic. At 20 below the heat pump in the car can't produce enough cabin heat to even make the car drivable. You don't have to worry about range at -20F because you'll freeze to death in the car before you get there. They only got a 2,400 watt heater which is barely enough to keep windows defrosted at 20 below. You're supposed to use your electric seats to warm up your backside. But it's no fun driving a Tesla at 20 below with a hot a$$, cold nose and the vapor from your breath fogging up the windows.

joestue

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2022, 08:34:35 PM »
Electric cars should include a dual fuel gas/oil burner to warm the batteries and cabin.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2022, 10:10:33 PM »
Yeah, well, they don't. They got a 2,400 watt electric resistance heater and grid heaters in the windows for defrost. In a conventional car the defroster has 15,000 BTU of heating power, almost double what their 2,400 watt resistance heater has, and it circulates air in the car and makes it comfortable while keeping the windows clear. In the EV design the energy used to defrost windows is wasted for cabin heating. In the conventional car it serves dual purpose.

In the newer ones they put a heat pump in 'em now, but primarily for A/C. Cabin heating is still an afterthought because it takes too much energy from the battery. So they deliberately skimp on it because they know the car is not practical in cold weather anyway due to the limitations of the battery and the reduced range, and the amount of power the battery heater takes to keep the battery warm enough to put out enough power to get it to go at highway speed. When you first get in the car the braking regen doesn't even work when the battery has just been pre-heated with the electric battery heater. Lithium cells get hot during discharge, once the battery gets warmed up from being used in cold weather, then the braking regen works.

A Tesla is the Rich Boy's Toy, who doesn't really care if it's practical or not. As long as it'll lay rubber for a city block, win at the Stoplight Drags and attract the hottest girls to their yacht parties that's all they care about.

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #135 on: May 22, 2022, 08:50:42 AM »
The recent storm in South Dakota, Minnesota and northern Wisconsin took out our interstate power here for the last 10 days. Our Caterpillar generators have been running ever since at the power plant, averaging very close to 3.2MW of power output continuous. Supposedly the crews will have the lines repaired sometime early this week.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/hurricane-force-winds-dust-storm-blast-south-dakota-minnesota/ar-AAXd6vb

The reliability of the national electrical grid system with HV transmission wires strung all over tarnation on poles, not so much. The reliability of our diesel generators, 100% - currently providing power for 1,337 residences and businesses on the local 7.2KV lines. The power was only out here for 38 seconds while the generators started, sync their sine waves with each other and came online. In the data on the power command center, the initial surge after a 38 second outage was 6.72MW, or an average of about 5,000 watts per service, to get inductive loads turning again. The frequency momentarily dropped to 59.2Hz during the startup surge, engine power output shows the engines reached a mechanical output of 10,008 hp for 11 seconds to bring the power back on.

The two generators have burned 39,920 gallons of fuel in the last 10 days, or 2.98 gallons per service, per day. You can't buy a home backup generator that will supply whole-house 200A service power on that amount of fuel.

JW

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #136 on: May 22, 2022, 09:35:02 AM »
I waz talking to one of my neighbors about this last night. I have a very efficient living arrangement and 2 lifts in the shop downstairs. I was like ya I have 6KW APU that runs on diesel, your right petrol is a waste.

I can't run the whole building with that but can use the lifts and get the shop air compressor to pump up.

The kicker here is how do you tap into the Panel.

The most important thing that has to be used, is a "MAIN Service Disconnect BREAKER" The last thing you want to do is energize a dead grid. 

I can also run welders and a 12-20 engine lathe

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #137 on: May 22, 2022, 10:43:44 AM »
The most important thing that has to be used, is a "MAIN Service Disconnect BREAKER" The last thing you want to do is energize a dead grid.

The only thing that's legal, unless it's a certified grid support generating plant, is a break-before-make transfer switch. 7200v transfer switches have capacitors the size of 30 gallon drums because the arc will jump a 6" air gap between the contacts.

JW

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #138 on: May 22, 2022, 11:30:57 AM »
As a Process Engineer we annexed this data processing facility it had the raised floor that had like 975 phone connections. It was a credit card processor. (all) I worked with the guy that was telling me this, I said this is great. Im like we could run a isp with this existing terminal, he remarked to me as these lines have inactivity they just die off.

So one day I had the suction cup and started pulling panels there was this heavy 3 lead cable 460 ir whatever I touched that $#|+ and it arced. I was like f uck.... They were running 415HZ   

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #139 on: May 22, 2022, 12:41:18 PM »
The recent storm in South Dakota, Minnesota and northern Wisconsin took out our interstate power here for the last 10 days. Our Caterpillar generators have been running ever since at the power plant, averaging very close to 3.2MW of power output continuous. Supposedly the crews will have the lines repaired sometime early this week.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/hurricane-force-winds-dust-storm-blast-south-dakota-minnesota/ar-AAXd6vb

The reliability of the national electrical grid system with HV transmission wires strung all over tarnation on poles, not so much. The reliability of our diesel generators, 100% - currently providing power for 1,337 residences and businesses on the local 7.2KV lines. The power was only out here for 38 seconds while the generators started, sync their sine waves with each other and came online. In the data on the power command center, the initial surge after a 38 second outage was 6.72MW, or an average of about 5,000 watts per service, to get inductive loads turning again. The frequency momentarily dropped to 59.2Hz during the startup surge, engine power output shows the engines reached a mechanical output of 10,008 hp for 11 seconds to bring the power back on.

The two generators have burned 39,920 gallons of fuel in the last 10 days, or 2.98 gallons per service, per day. You can't buy a home backup generator that will supply whole-house 200A service power on that amount of fuel.

I was down 24 hours, west end of my county had 95mph winds. Xcel dropped service into those areas to get what was still standing back online. Since then power has had a LOT of bumps and drop outs as they replace poles and bring sections online. And some overnight planned outages to do stuff that requires dropping all power to here. West side of my town took a pretty good hit too. I was lucky and protected from it by the bulk of the town. I saw a 70mph wind gust(had to go back thru the weather station data) that tossed my garbage can with 50 pounds of used cat litter in the bottom across the street...

Haboob(dust storm) hit out ahead of it... unreal system... not quite as bad as the July 1st, 2011 derecho that killed power for 5 days just as I had 100 guests descend on my house for my annual 4th of July BBQ

« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 12:54:37 PM by Mary B »

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #140 on: May 22, 2022, 01:36:39 PM »
Glad to hear you're still standing there, Mary. We're on the end of Xcel's interstate lines here so they haven't gotten to our area yet. They're concentrating on the more populated areas first. I don't know where the problem is on the line from Minnesota to here, but I suspect it's over by the Mississippi River someplace. Our substation transformers and everything survived, it's just the lines are dead that feed 'em. They claimed they had (unverified) tornados in Coon Rapids someplace, so that's likely where the problem is. They still don't have all the junk layin in the roads cleaned up over there, much less put power wires back up.

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #141 on: May 31, 2022, 11:50:29 AM »
And back from another Xcel outage, 22 hours this time... I had plenty of battery to keep fridge and freezers cold, run the computer and 1 monitor(I shut 2 down to save power) ad run the ham radio. Kept me entertained.

Neighbor across the street knocked on the front door, "Hey can I borrow your generator for 2 ours to cool the fridge and freezer down?"

I said "What generator?" I am running off solar and battery!

I let him dig my little Northstar 2800 watt generator out, he had to clean the carb but it gave him power.

That was a wild ride storm wise, 3:30AM line of storms hits and power goes down, town 17 miles west has major damage and that took out the substation that feeds this way. They had 90mph winds, i saw 50mph. Then 2 hours after power comes back up another line of storms hit, I had a peak straight line wind of 70mph, west of me again gt nailed with tornadoes and 90mph straight line winds. I have a 65 gallon garbage can and same size recycling can. Garbage can was half full and winds tossed it 150 feet, the recycling can was basically empty(and is empty now!) and I found it 500 feet away where it smashed in the overhead door at the school bus barn. I was watching crap fly by and hitting my bay window in the kitchen(I was standing in the doorway to the pantry, strongest room in the house) 15 feet back in case the glass gave way. Rain was forced in around the window seals, in around the front door seals and it is TIGHT! Hard to open tight! Winds may have been higher and my weather station didn't capture it, sometimes it misses the peak gust.

Grain elevator 20 miles NW of me



Grain elevator in the town 17 miles west is also damaged badly, roofs off all over town, trees down everywhere. Trees down here in town to, sound of chainsaws woke me up! Neighbors grove across he street took a beating(and may have blocked some of the wind from hitting me!). He borrowed my electric chainsaw for his wife to use, said he had a new chain to fit it. I am using my battery powered chainsaw to do cleanup in my neighbors yard.


ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #142 on: May 31, 2022, 02:19:03 PM »
Mary, indeed that storm caused a lot of damage to several farms, grain bins and sheds in that area. Up here, about 40-50 miles SW of us there was an outfit that had a grid tie wind turbine. I don't remember what brand it was - it was about 90 ft rotor on it. Anyway, it exploded in the storm, one blade went thru the factory roof, another one cut the tower down and collapsed it, the third blade flew about 1/4 mile and hit a house and demolished it. There was no other damage in town other than from that wind turbine. People didn't like the thing near the town at the factory anyway, when it was put in. And now it's smashed, there's gonna be huge lawsuits over it and the owners of the factory won't be putting another one up. When they put it in there was all this hoopla about how "green energy" from the wind turbine was gonna save the factory thousands in electricity bills. It never did. It was there for about 12 years and what it produced in electricity never paid for even 1/3 the cost of the wind turbine.

Up north here we had a nice quiet, peaceful Memorial Day weekend. Little bit of rain on a couple nights, we didn't get even 1/2 the amount of out-of-staters from the Twin Cities area come here this year. The last two years have been nuts with what we call out-of-state "corona boaters". People were out of work, they bought a used boat with their government corona checks, and showed up at our lake in hoards because they had nothing else to do. This year, most of them had to go back to work, gas is high priced, they found out that cheap $5,000 used boat they bought costs $10,000 to make it go for one year. So now they got no money left and and they couldn't afford to come to our lake and raise havoc anymore, and they all got their "corona boats" for sale on craigslist.

We hope it stays that way.

What did show up here mostly left yesterday afternoon. So last night we let our boat down off the lift, Kristin loaded it up with supplies and we went to one of our favorite fishing spots about 17 miles up the lake from our dock. We fished walleyes until about 2:00AM, caught about a dozen but kept two nice 19-20" dinner fish, spent the night on the lake on the boat. We woke up this morning at sunup and the wind was picking up with 2-3 ft rollers on the lake with whitecaps. So we hauled anchor and headed back home. The wind is nuts here again today, gusting to 35 mph, would be a rough ride to go anywhere in the boat today. So we're waiting until it quiets down a bit, then going out again tonight.

Otherwise our Caterpillar generators are silent, power is on and coming in just fine from Xcel ever since they got the lines fixed.

Bruce S

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #143 on: May 31, 2022, 02:24:26 PM »
Mary B
Wow! it's been 2012 since I'd seen a Grain Silo with the top blown off! A EF2 blew threw BFE MO that took out the tops of trees for something 2 miles and left my sister's house without nary a touch.
Would've been "interesting" to see antenna masts in those kind of winds.

Kinda make me wonder hos ChrisO is doing too.

Glad is see all is okay
Bruce S
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ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #144 on: May 31, 2022, 02:34:45 PM »
Bruce, those straight-line winds out on the prairie are notorious. Here where we live it takes a tornado to cause that kind of damage. We got millions and millions of acres of trees, hills and so on, and the wind tends to get tumbled and doesn't develop those notorious straight-line winds they get on the prairie in western and west-central Minnesota.

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #145 on: June 01, 2022, 11:14:24 AM »
Mary B
Wow! it's been 2012 since I'd seen a Grain Silo with the top blown off! A EF2 blew threw BFE MO that took out the tops of trees for something 2 miles and left my sister's house without nary a touch.
Would've been "interesting" to see antenna masts in those kind of winds.

Kinda make me wonder hos ChrisO is doing too.

Glad is see all is okay
Bruce S

Top of my tower in 70mph winds will be flexing 2-3 inches to the side! Scary to see but they are designed for that.

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #146 on: June 01, 2022, 11:26:29 AM »
More bad damage reports came in yesterday. Trees on houses, power lines down, barns and bins on farms flattened... can draw a line from Sioux Falls to Alexandria, MN and 30 miles to either side had severe damage. Still have chain saws going here today at the neighbors across the street, and he is fixing his barn that wracked in the wind. They chained a tractor to the upwind end yesterday and tugged it back vertical. Where the pole barn posts moved ground sideways they now had a hole they are filling with concrete. It was 8" off plumb down the west wall and south wall! Today he is rigging x brace cables just under the rafters from corner to corner to help pull it back square. Cables will stay in place permanently to make sure the next wind doesn't finish it off.

During my inspection yesterday I noticed branches on the 240volt lines that run across my backyard then up to my house. I borrowed a friends pole trimmer and got them cut away to take the weight off the lines.

And I found my lawn chair I thought was a goner! It was wedged in the trees/bushes at the back of my property, about 20' in the air! A rotating wall cloud went overhead(I was spotting on 2 meters to the National Weather Service) and I wonder if a small tornado wasn't trying to form... something cause a lot of lift in the winds that went over my house. To toss a 65 gallon commercial grade garbage can 500 feet takes some power.

kitestrings

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #147 on: June 09, 2022, 10:37:06 AM »
Wow!  Thanks for sharing the pictures.  Crazy power, huh.

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #148 on: July 08, 2022, 11:42:59 PM »
Update on our daughter's Tesla Model 3. They decided they can't afford to live in California anymore - too expensive. So they moved back to Wisconsin. What to do with the Tesla? She tried to sell it, but she owes more on it on the loan than the car is worth. There's no way it could be driven to Wisconsin. It would take forever, and that's assuming a person can find places in the western mountain states and midwest to charge it up when the battery goes dead.

So in the end I had to drive all the way to San Bernardino with my diesel one-ton dually and a flatbed 5th wheel trailer, load up the worthless Tesla and haul it to Wisconsin. It took 284 gallons of diesel fuel and 4 days round trip to get an electric car from California to Wisconsin. A car that depreciated to less than 50% of it's purchase price in four years, cost $16,000 (which I had to pay because daughter couldn't afford it) to fix a failed battery, and now the car is in Wisconsin where we have winter at -30F.

Welcome to the reality of the New Green Deal.

Even Tesla knows they're a joke. They are a scam to get government subsidies. When Tesla was cleaning out their car lots and moving to online sales only, guess what they used to keep cars charged up on the lots. Because unlike a diesel or gas car that doesn't burn any fuel when it's not running, EV's run themselves dead unless they're kept on the charger. Twin 300kVA diesel generators to keep their Tesla inventory charged up.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/03/tesla-factory-store-uses-diesel-generators-to-recharge-slow-moving-model-3-inventory/

MagnetJuice

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #149 on: July 09, 2022, 04:16:34 AM »
now the car is in Wisconsin where we have winter at -30F.

Great, now you have a nice Tesla battery to keep your house warm when the Caterpillar generators fail.  :D

Ed
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clockmanFRA

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #150 on: July 09, 2022, 04:52:34 AM »
Hi Chris,

Thought you might like these pics.

About 6 weeks ago the ground started to rumble, and looking down our small normal road, very rural Normandy France, these machines appeared and laying 3off 3 1/2-inch ridged polypropylene continues tubes.

Tubes to  about 30 to 36 inch depth and the small trench with the tubes in was then followed by cement mixer after cement mixer. A few days and they were gone from our village.

It seems the Regional Department had been allocated a budget from central government to put all overground cables underground, including mixing new fibre optic cables and 3 phase cables. Telecoms in one tube the others have electric at 20,000ac and 440vac.

For 22 years we here have had our own supply as the local supply was always being lost due to poles over or trees pulling lines down.  6 years ago we got fibre Optic to the end of the road box 200 yards away, after many years struggling with satellite speeds.

So in our back of the woods rural valley, we are now getting everything.

HMM! must get all my building applications in quick as i suspect with all the utilities poles gone the regional council will have us made a National Park.

Last photo shows our new cast iron manhole for our connections. Our sheep dog ready for work.

14907-0

14908-1

14909-2

14910-3




Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #151 on: July 09, 2022, 12:57:02 PM »
It makes a lot more sense than stringing wires on poles. The only reason that was done was because it was quick and cheap with no regard for what it costs to maintain it long-term.

Our daughter and son-in-law are now in the same situation with poor planning and design. They have a Tesla car here where the nearest EV charging station is almost 100 miles away and it takes an hour to charge it to 75%. Takes a lot longer to charge it from 75 to 100% because the last 25% is the least efficient stage of charging. They have a rented house where they cannot install the Level 3 charger because the house doesn't have a big enough electrical service to handle it, and it takes literally days to charge it with a wall outlet so it can be driven 80 miles.

She's got a new job here teaching school in the fall, and she has to drive 60 miles a day to get to work and back. The 120V charger can't put enough daily power in the battery for her to make it to work and back in the winter time - and the daily electrical consumption of that car is more than our entire house takes per day. They neglect to tell you that in cold weather the charger will refuse to charge the battery unless it's at least 40 deg F. When it's -20F outside it takes 20-25 kWh for the battery heater to warm the battery to 40F so it will charge, which takes about 3 hours just to warm the battery. If you get in the car and just drive it, the battery and cabin heaters take 70% of the total energy that be stored in the battery so it will operate, and the range on a full charge is barely 80 miles - the energy equivalent of 8.9 miles/gallon with a gas car.

So if she goes to work at -20F with a full charge, only 30 miles, leaves the car sitting outside with the battery heater going, when she goes home after work there won't be enough left in the battery to make it home. The battery heater is 6KW, and it will draw the battery completely dead sitting outside at work for 8 hours without being plugged in, which works out to an energy equivalent of less than 1 mpg with a gas car.

She's gonna try to trade it off on a gas car in the Twin Cities area, see if she can find a dealer who will take it on trade and just absorb the loss on it trading into a used gas car.

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #152 on: July 09, 2022, 01:29:33 PM »
Friend in ND had a similar situation. Kid bought a Tesla when he was in college down in AZ. He came back to ND to work and the Tesla was useless and since dad paid for it dad took the battery pack out to run his house during power outages and scrapped the rest and told the kid he was an adult now, go get credit and buy a GAS car. There was literally nowhere to charge the Tesla fast within 200 miles! At least the kid managed to drive it home by carrying a generator in the trunk and camping along the way. Took him 10 days to drive from Phoenix to middle of nowhere ND. AT first he wanted dad to pay for hotels along the way... dad set him $1k to buy a generator and a tent and sleeping bag instead. LOL generator gets used around the farm so it was a useful purchase...

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #153 on: July 09, 2022, 01:49:54 PM »
I think there's dealers in the Twin Cities area that will take it on trade without scrapping it out. The battery in the Model 3 is 360V so it's not really practical to run inverters with it, and it's not safe to even have it sitting around. It's fire and electrical shock hazard. And when the battery goes bad, then what do you do with it? It's not recyclable and you're sitting on a pile of toxic waste.

These EV's are anything but "green" and they use a lot of false advertising and cherry-picked "specs" to sell them, just like they do with wind turbines that never produce even close to their nameplate power unless there's a storm going, and then they feather the blades and they don't produce anything during the storm anyway. And then the blades, which are composites made from petroleum, end up in a big toxic stockpile in Colorado.

It's called the New Green Deal.

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #154 on: July 09, 2022, 02:22:09 PM »
Friend in ND had a similar situation. Kid bought a Tesla when he was in college down in AZ. He came back to ND to work and the Tesla was useless

What makes it even worse, is that it says in the Model 3 owner's manual, "do not expose the Model 3 to temperatures less than -22F (-30C) for more than 24 hours. Permanent damage will result that is not covered under the limited warranty"

It doesn't get above that temperature for days at a time in the dead of winter here. And then suddenly we'll get a warm snap where it gets up to 0F and everybody goes snowmobiling, hunting and ice-fishing to enjoy the warm weather.

I think it was MagnetJuice that said we have a nice Tesla battery to keep the house warm? That's almost laughable. The only way it's gonna keep the house warm is to poke a steel rod into it with a wood stick to short it out and set it on fire.

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #155 on: July 09, 2022, 02:45:29 PM »
The EV industry also uses the same type of misinformation campaigns that governments use to get people to believe something. Tell 'em lies enough times, it must be true. Right?

Tesla's are notorious for catching on fire. Despite Tesla's claim that they're "safer than a gas car". I told our daughter this is the best possible thing that could happen to her Model 3, then collect the insurance on it to pay off the loan

https://youtu.be/sAQlLu5ttOk

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #156 on: July 10, 2022, 12:28:34 PM »
Friend in ND had a similar situation. Kid bought a Tesla when he was in college down in AZ. He came back to ND to work and the Tesla was useless

What makes it even worse, is that it says in the Model 3 owner's manual, "do not expose the Model 3 to temperatures less than -22F (-30C) for more than 24 hours. Permanent damage will result that is not covered under the limited warranty"

It doesn't get above that temperature for days at a time in the dead of winter here. And then suddenly we'll get a warm snap where it gets up to 0F and everybody goes snowmobiling, hunting and ice-fishing to enjoy the warm weather.

I think it was MagnetJuice that said we have a nice Tesla battery to keep the house warm? That's almost laughable. The only way it's gonna keep the house warm is to poke a steel rod into it with a wood stick to short it out and set it on fire.

Friend took it apart and turned it into a 48 volt pack. Batteries have their own insulated steel building 20' from the house in case of a pack fire. Since it is a standby system and he isn't charging it with RE heating that little building is easy and cheap enough. Not having to start a generator at -40 is a huge plus! He flips the transfer switch and turns on the inverter to power the furnace and critical loads. He gets a lot of 4-8 hour power outages... similar to what I get. Xcels crappy substation tripped off again last night when a tiny pop up thunderstorm 1 miles away hit the high voltage feeder. Takes 6 hours to get someone out to reset the breakers... if they reset and aren't so over heated they have to be replaced with more junk. That substation is to small and way over loaded now.

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #157 on: July 10, 2022, 02:39:05 PM »
Yeah, the Tesla battery is made of little AA-size battery cells. Our daughter's Model 3 has 2,976 double A flashlight batteries in it. Each plate module is 25.2V fully charged and 22.2V at nominal. So nominal voltage is actually 44.4 instead of 48 with two in series - they don't make that good of inverter batteries because they're near the low voltage cutoff for most 48V inverters, making the inverter way less efficient (drawing more amps for the same watts) than it is with lead-acid batteries @ 48V nominal.

So a 1500AH lithium pack drawn down to 20% SOC won't run the inverter near as long as a 1,500AH lead-acid forklift battery will drawn down to the same 20% SOC because the inverter pulls more amps and runs hotter on the lithium batteries.

With a typical light duty "renewable energy" lead-acid that can only be drawn down to 50% SOC without damaging it, then the lithium holds an advantage in weight per useable amp-hour. But they still don't beat lead-acid forklift traction batteries for efficiency and cost/kWh. So in the end, using a Tesla battery to power an inverter for a house don't make much sense. Might look good on paper, but the real world is different than paper theories.

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #158 on: July 11, 2022, 01:19:31 PM »
He tore the packs down to bare batteries and started over. He does a lot of battery pack refurbing for hand tools(it is his sideline business) and had the spot welder and heat shrink sleeves. He went to a better BMS over what Tesla uses. Told him if he runs across a Tesla pack cheap he can build one for me to use!

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #159 on: July 11, 2022, 09:30:59 PM »
He tore the packs down to bare batteries and started over. He does a lot of battery pack refurbing for hand tools(it is his sideline business) and had the spot welder and heat shrink sleeves. He went to a better BMS over what Tesla uses. Told him if he runs across a Tesla pack cheap he can build one for me to use!

Holy toledo, he must be desperate to go to that much work. All the cells are are in that green casting stuff that the coolant tubes go thru and they literally have to be destroyed to get them out. The individual modules aren't considered to be serviceable. The modules are easily removed from the big tray and there's people that pry and bust the circuit board off them so they can be used in other vehicles. But I've never actually heard of anybody grinding one of them modules apart because the cells are cast in groups of 13, then bonded into that green stuff that sets up about like cement. Each module has its own BMS on it. You can buy 'em on eBay for around $4,500 for a 220AH battery

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284777671993

That's why I said this battery technology, while necessary for your expensive electric toy car, is not really practical for anything else because you can buy a 220AH FLA battery for $150 bucks.

MagnetJuice

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #160 on: July 11, 2022, 11:57:04 PM »
You can buy 'em on eBay for around $4,500 for a 220AH battery

That price is for 4 modules (880 AH)

you can buy a 220AH FLA battery for $150 bucks.

The cheapest 12v 220AH that I found goes for $500
Can you give me a link that is not from China? I can use 4 of those.

Ed
What can I do TODAY that would make TOMORROW a better world?

ChrisOlson

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #161 on: July 12, 2022, 12:28:59 AM »
The cheapest 12v 220AH that I found goes for $500
Can you give me a link that is not from China? I can use 4 of those.

Who uses 12V? Either 2V or 6V for off-grid power. The local Farm and Fleet has GC2's for $150. They are made by Deka in the USA.
https://www.farmandfleet.com/products/g--2705-blains-farm-and-fleet-golf-cart-battery.html

If you want to step up the GC8 then they're $185.

So price out a 20kWh battery bank with FLA vs Li-ion. And keep in mind that despite all the hype the cycle life of Li-ion chemistry is 800 cycles. A much cheaper lead-acid forklift traction battery will run 3,000 cycles @ 80% DoD and last 20 years in an off-grid application. Sure, the 48V 600AH forklift battery weighs almost 2 tons and that's why they don't use them in electric cars. But who cares how much it weighs when it's sitting stationary in an off-grid utility room? It's cost/kWh that matters.

And then on top of that, see if you can get your insurance company to insure the place with a lithium chemistry battery on-site. Neither the insurance company, nor the fire dept, will touch it with a 10 ft pole.

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #162 on: July 12, 2022, 01:02:34 PM »
I went to AGM, my back and watering/testing batteries monthly got to the point they didn't agree. Stooping is bad for me.. so I need a battery chemistry that I can ignore...

Mary B

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #163 on: July 12, 2022, 01:04:09 PM »
He tore the packs down to bare batteries and started over. He does a lot of battery pack refurbing for hand tools(it is his sideline business) and had the spot welder and heat shrink sleeves. He went to a better BMS over what Tesla uses. Told him if he runs across a Tesla pack cheap he can build one for me to use!

Holy toledo, he must be desperate to go to that much work. All the cells are are in that green casting stuff that the coolant tubes go thru and they literally have to be destroyed to get them out. The individual modules aren't considered to be serviceable. The modules are easily removed from the big tray and there's people that pry and bust the circuit board off them so they can be used in other vehicles. But I've never actually heard of anybody grinding one of them modules apart because the cells are cast in groups of 13, then bonded into that green stuff that sets up about like cement. Each module has its own BMS on it. You can buy 'em on eBay for around $4,500 for a 220AH battery

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284777671993

That's why I said this battery technology, while necessary for your expensive electric toy car, is not really practical for anything else because you can buy a 220AH FLA battery for $150 bucks.

That is why I told him he can build one for me LOL I am not taking one apart that far!

MagnetJuice

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Re: When the power goes out
« Reply #164 on: July 12, 2022, 01:31:45 PM »
Chris, that link that you posted is for a 6 volts golf-cart battery of 215 AH, not 220 AH.

Using those, I'll have to spend over $1300 (shipping not included) for a 48v bank.

I think I'll wait for a cheap electric car battery. There are people that have the know-how to dissect those batteries and get any voltage that they want.

You never answered about the link to ebay. That was 4 modules for that price, not 1 module.

But you don't have to answer, just continue bashing the Teslas. The more you do it, the cheaper I can get the battery.  :D

Ed
What can I do TODAY that would make TOMORROW a better world?