Author Topic: Need Latest info.  (Read 2807 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Need Latest info.
« on: June 18, 2018, 11:46:58 PM »
Well, after being gone for a long time, I come back to see that “Lots of Nothing” sparked lots of interest. I'm happy about that.  Well since my departure, I've left Indiana and now in Phoenix, living temporarily in an apartment.  As crazy as it sounds, Im Building an 8ft diameter wind turbine of my own design that can be either a horizontal or vertical unit.  I am fully aware of the efficiency difference, but I do not know what will be allowed in my next neighborhood.   At this time, I've completly fabricated the pieces, and waiting welding instruction from a friend.  I want to build a 48v system for grid tie and if required battery charging.  At this time, I'm hoping to find the most up to date info on 48v stator design, basically, is Mr. Piggott 2009 version for wire size and turns per coil still the best design (no disrespect is intended)?  Any and all help is greatly appreciated.  Thanks to all.

hiker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1661
  • BIG DOG
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2018, 12:00:38 AM »
Just one..from the search box...48v turbine...enter that on the main page... https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,145770.msg993098.html#msg993098
WILD in ALASKA

hiker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1661
  • BIG DOG
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2018, 12:05:27 AM »
Failed link....just enter...48v turbine..on the top of Main page..in the search box...Dan B...has a post their..grid tied 48v turbine..
WILD in ALASKA

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: nl
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2018, 03:02:41 AM »
My report KD 341 gives an overview of the PM-generators which I have developed or described. The bigger generators are meant for 48 V battery charging. KD 341 can be copied for free from my website www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports.

The main advantage of axial flux generators with no iron in the coils is that the coils cause no sticking torque. This results in a low starting wind speed of the rotor. The main disadvantage is that they have a large air gap and this air gap reduces the magnetic flux flowing through the coils. Therefore rather thick magnets are needed and so the magnet costs are relatively high if the generator is compared to a radial flux generator with a small air gap and a laminated iron stator and with the same maximum torque level.

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2018, 11:07:27 PM »
I must be missing something but I need wire size and number of turns per coil for a 48V system.....Can anyone help?

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: nl
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2018, 02:42:48 AM »
The wire size and the number of turns per coil are linked together. This means that a certain space is available for a coil and this gives a certain cross sectional copper area of a coil. So the more turns per per coil, the smaller the wire diameter must be. The optimum number of turns per coil depends on the wanted open voltage for a certain rotational speed. The wanted open voltage depends on the matching in between rotor and generator. Matching is explained in chapter 8 of my free public report KD 35. To optimize the matching, you need the optimum cubic line of the rotor and the measured Pmech-n curves of the generator for a range of different voltages for a certain winding. The formula for the optimum cubic line is given as formula 8.1 in KD 35. To use this formula, you need the maximum Cp of the rotor at the design tip speed ratio lambda.

Assume the generator will be used for 24 V battery charging. The average charging voltage for a 24 V battery is about 26 V. Assume that the PM-generator has a 3-phase winding which is rectified in star. The product of U * I gives the supplied electrical power Pel. The product of the torque Q times the angular velocity gives the supplied mechanical power Pmech. So you have to measure the torque Q which requires a rather sophisticated test rig.

For the generator you make a choice for the wire thickness and you make the coils such that you have the maximum possible wire thickness. Assume that you have a test winding with 200 turns per coil with 1 mm wire. Next you measure the generator on a test rig for a range of constant DC voltages of for instance 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36 and 38 V. For every voltage you get a certain Pmech-n curve. Only one curve will give the optimal matching with the cubic line if the rotor. Optimal matching means that you have two points of intersection which are not lying far apart. Assume that optimum matching is found for 34 V. This is a factor 34/26 = 1.308 higher than 26 V.

So for the final winding, the number of turns per coil has to be reduced by a factor 1,308 and becomes 200 / 1.308 = 153. The cross sectional area of a wire is proportional with the square of the diameter so it has to be increased by the root of 1.308 and becomes 1.144 * 1 = 1.144 mm. If you make the final winding this way it will have the same Pmech-n curve for 26 V as the test winding for 34 V and so the matching for the final winding will be optimal too. There is only a little chance that you have made that choice for the number of turns per coil of the test winding that the test winding can be used as final winding.

So you see that finding of the optimal winding for a certain PM-generator and a certain windmill rotor is not an easy job an that you need a sophisticated test rig. Measuring of only the electrical power isn't enough as matching is done by comparing the mechanical power of the rotor and the mechanical power of the generator.

If the winding is a given fact, like if you use the housing of an asynchronous motor, you can measure the Pmech-n curve of the generator for this winding for 26 V star and design a rotor such that the optimum cubic line of this rotor matches with the measured generator curve. Measured generator curves for different loads of a radial flux generator made from an asynchronous motor frame size 90 are given in my free public report KD 78.


Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018, 01:09:58 AM »
Sir, I'm also an engineer, but a mechanical engineer.  My intention  is to build an 8ft diameter wind turbines, not spend weeks figuring out the equations to answer my question.  Will you help me or just be willing emphasizes your superior intelligence?

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018, 01:32:58 AM »
Sorry for my last remark....just frustrated.

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: nl
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2018, 02:24:22 AM »
I am a mechanical engineer too but I have learned how to deal with PM-generators by study and by practice. Correct matching in between rotor and generator is one of the most difficult parts of windmill design. Most people simply take something and hope for the best but there is a procedure and if you follow that procedure you get the optimum. To my opinion there is no simple answer to your question. If have tried to describe this procedure in some lines but for detailed information you have to study chapter 8 of KD 35. It is inevitable that you have to measure the generator and modify the test winding to get an acceptable matching with an existing rotor.

Some years ago I was in Dar es Salaam Tanzania for a PUM project and there we have built a test rig to measure an existing generator. It appeared that the generator was much weaker than expected for the given size and that it could be used only for a little rotor. Building of a test rig can be done even if you have little machines and equipment. I have built a simple test rig at home which is described in my report KD 595.

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2018, 08:22:12 AM »
i couldn't afford to stay in school long enough to get a sheeps skin so i opted for a 3 year industrial design course . ;)

we don't know the wind speed or the blade profile.
we don't know the size, the flux density or the number of mags.
kind of tough in an apartment but if you had the mag rotors ( or even 1) set up to rotate you could do a test coil of thinner wire so you could get a turn count.
 
there is  a computer program that may help. some have used to develop working mills.
 "Finite Element Method Magnetics "







Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2018, 04:00:19 PM »
So, it sounds like if I had a device to rotate my magnet plate, I could try to figure this out through experimentation.  That being said, I am assuming I should try a specific wire size for specific number of loops on one coil and measure the voltage and amperage, I should vary the wire size and number of loops in hopes of getting the best results?  Is this right?

bigrockcandymountain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 659
  • Country: ca
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 11:13:51 PM »
The way i understand it you can experiment with any size wire.  By experimentation figure out how many turns you need to get the appropriate voltage, then figure out the biggest gauge wire that will make the number of turns you need and stillfit in the space you want it to fit. 

Wire gauge does not affect volts per rpm it only affects max amps so for a test just use whatever you have. 

Someone correct that if I am wrong.  I have grade 12 education. 

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2018, 11:35:23 PM »
Well I'm not smarter than anyone else here, but I'm sure I CAN be more specific.  I've made few 8-ft mills, some good some bad so that helps narrow it down.
An 8-ft turbine should be furling itself at 1kW so by simple math: 1000/48=20 Amps.  Wait, let's do that again for the proper voltage: 1000W/60v=16.7 Amps.
It will probably be in the 14-18 AWG range.  It will depend a lot on whether you try to make the stator thin, meaning you try to wind coils with 2-in-hand. 
There isn't much to be gained by fancy stuff like that.  You still have to pack in enough turns per coil which determines the cut-in speed, of course.
You will get better answers if you put the time in to refine all the details, but that's the "thumb-in-the-wind" answer I can give you.

I also like the good advice you got for doing test coils.  Even a single turn of wire will give you a good indication if you're spinning the magnets at a known speed (eg. 200 RPM) and you test with a good multimeter.  Cheap meters will lie to you because they don't understand AC that isn't exactly 60 Hz.  If you have a really good multimeter it will give you the frequency and then you don't have to directly measure the RPM either.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: nl
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2018, 03:25:14 AM »
There is a way to minimize the number of measurements for the test winding but then you have to make more calculations. If you compare the Q-n curves for different voltages and for short-circuit as given in my report KD 78, you see that all Q-n curves have the same shape. But the higher the voltage, the more the Q-n curve is lying to the right. If you use the generator in star, you have to compare the Q-n curves for a certain voltage with the Q-n curve for short-circuit in star. Assume that the generator is used in star.

What you do is that you measure the generator with the test winding for short-circuit in star after the rectifier. Next you measure the open DC-voltage for rectification in star for some rotational speeds. These measuring points are lying on a straight line through the origin. So from this open U-n line you know the open DC voltage for every rotational speed. Assume that you want to know the Q-n curve for 26 V star. In the open U-n curve you can read for which rotational speed the DC-voltage is 26 V. This rotational speed is called n26. Next you move the Q-n curve for short-circuit in star that much to the right until it starts at n26. This gives you the Q-n curve for 26 V star for the test winding.

The P-n curve for 26 V star can be derived from the Q-n curve using the formula which gives the relation in between the torque Q (Nm), the rotational speed n (rpm) and the mechanical power P (W). This formula is P = Q * pi * n / 30. So in this way you find the P-n curve for 26 V star. Next this P-n curve for 26 V star is compared to the optimum cubic line of the rotor. If the matching isn't optimal, you have to repeat this procedure for other voltages until you have found the voltage for which the matching is optimal. The final winding is then found in the same way as I have described earlier.

If you know the final winding, you have to make a generator with this winding and then measure it completely for 26 V star. So now you measure the needed mechanical power P and the supplied electrical power Pel. Your P-n curve for 26 V star should now show optimal matching with the optimum cubic line of the rotor. As you have measured the mechanical power P and the electrical power Pel, you also can determine the efficiency curve for 26 V star.

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2018, 08:48:08 PM »
Thank you all for taking the time to reply to my email.  Additional comments are always welcomed.  All of you are extremely kind...good...people.  It's so difficult to find good people.....

Yianie123.

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2018, 09:13:33 PM »
I want to especially find of value those who have built 8 ft Gens.  That is the size I'm building.   I'm using a 12 inch magnetic plate and want to build a 48v system.  If you can share your wire size, number of loops, dimensions and thickness of coils.  This is the key items I need to finish my gen.  Thank you!!!!

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2018, 01:52:54 AM »
Hi Yiannie,
There are too many combinations - not likely that you'll find someone able to give you a specific recipe to follow.  I actually tried an axial alternator on an 8-foot mill many years ago but it had a meltdown so that's what my advice is worth.  If I look in one of Hugh's books (Windpower Workshop) he has an equation in the back for estimating the number of coils, but for me to get all the values to input this would turn into 20 questions.  I tried a wild guess but I get about 50 turns, but that's probably not right.  You would be well served by reading that book to get your answers.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

clockmanFRA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • Country: fr
    • Renewable Energy creation
Re: Need Latest info.
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2018, 02:48:28 AM »
I can also recommend Hugh Piggotts book as he has spent the last 40 years perfecting the domestic wind turbine in the real World with real Wind Turbines.

I have 3off his 12 footers, 3.7 meter diameter design up and running the last 10 years.
 
 As SparWeb says, Hugh has tables that match the diameter of the blades, (the most efficient blade type that he also has perfected as a carve your own), to the coils and differing wire diameters, and differing number of turns, that relate directly to the magnet type and power for the output voltage required. 

Matching all these and getting them as efficient as possible and then producing a real working machine that is simple, robust and very cost effective is a fantastic achievement. And as far as I am concerned Hugh deserves some sort of Medal for releasing all that information for just a few dollars.

 http://scoraigwind.co.uk/all-of-the-books-by-hugh-how-to-get-them/


PS, I don't know Hugh and never met the Guy, but his machines designs are a real delight.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery