Author Topic: Just hit by lightning  (Read 5305 times)

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OperaHouse

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Just hit by lightning
« on: July 27, 2018, 01:32:03 PM »
There is a hole in the ground next to the panels.  Massive damage.  Glad I never installed those extra two 280W panels on the porch. Whole control system knocked out and shorted panels. I'm going to be limping on a minimal system.

Bruce S

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 02:04:49 PM »
Here's hoping no one was hurt !!

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Mary B

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 06:26:26 PM »
I use lightning protection devices at the panels and at the entrance to the house. And a large ground system of 8 grounds rods all tied together with buried #6 copper. Took a hit to the main ham tower a few weeks ago and no electrical damage beyond a shortwave receiver by my bed that has a wire antenna run along the ceiling. Coupled to that antenna and took out that radio.

joestue

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2018, 07:24:04 PM »
I use lightning protection devices at the panels and at the entrance to the house. And a large ground system of 8 grounds rods all tied together with buried #6 copper. Took a hit to the main ham tower a few weeks ago and no electrical damage beyond a shortwave receiver by my bed that has a wire antenna run along the ceiling.

better to go quickly isn't it  ;D
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kitestrings

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 07:54:54 PM »
Sorry to hear this OperaH.  We've had damage here over the years.  Feels like the life getting sucked out of things.  I don't know that you can protect from this direct a hit.  Hope you're back up soon.  ~ks

SparWeb

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 01:52:20 AM »
I've been lucky so far, but it's only a matter of time.  "when" not "if".
At least you're safe and no damage to the house, I hope?
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OperaHouse

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 03:14:28 PM »
It was 15 minutes after the strike and I was running around trying to get anything to work.  My wife then said, Make me some buttered Parmesan popcorn.  In an emergency, it is vital to prioritize.  I made a bowl for my wife and another for my dog. I couldn't eat any due to a recent removal of a tooth. I got basic stuff running.

Here are a couple pictures I find interesting. My wife was sitting in this chair five minutes before it happened. She went into the house five minutes before to get an umbrella to go back out. This is five feet from the panels. This lifted and shattered the slate. pieces were all around.  I was just 70 feet away on the other side of the house. I didn't see any pending problem.

Just to demonstrate the unpredictability, this is the 6V panel that powers her fan.  Behind that spot is the junction box.  It was not connected to anything. The wire exploded right where you see it, no carbon traces. Don't know if it entered or exited there.

Mary B

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 04:07:44 PM »
I use lightning protection devices at the panels and at the entrance to the house. And a large ground system of 8 grounds rods all tied together with buried #6 copper. Took a hit to the main ham tower a few weeks ago and no electrical damage beyond a shortwave receiver by my bed that has a wire antenna run along the ceiling.

better to go quickly isn't it  ;D

LOL! Indoor antenna so chances of a direct hit are about zero. But coupled energy CAN get into it!

Worst lightning strike I ever had to deal with when I was fixing electronics:

Direct hit on the TV antenna, no ground wire so it jumped through the roof and into the copper plumbing in the bathroom below it blowing the water pipes apart and flooding the 2 stories below it. Plus started a fire so smoke damage to everything. Coax from the antenna vaporized, we couldn't even find a trace of it. Every piece of electronics/electrical appliances in the house were fried and smoke/water damaged. My estimate on the electronics was $5k, our appliance guy had another $15k in damages plus the fire/water damage to the rest of the house and contents. Weirdest part is the TV antenna itself had no damage that was visible!

jenkinswt

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 05:49:30 PM »
Sorry to hear this but glad everyone is safe! We've been very lucky so far and seeing this makes me very nervous now.... I hope you get back on your feet soon and replace what you've lost.

OperaHouse

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2018, 05:52:04 PM »
The coupled pickup killed my amplified TV antenna in the attic.  The RF end of the TV also died. But, it works with a DTV conversion box feeding video and audio into the AUX input.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2018, 05:08:21 AM »
I also offer my sympathy.

Thinking back over my life, I think my handle may be almost apropos.   (Actually I ALWAYS do the grounding on antennas and the like when I have the ability to specify or perform the work.  My handle refers to being a figurative "Lightning Rod" in early computerized social media, not to electrical-storm protection.)  But I've had a number of near-misses.

As a kid in Michigan we had one strike on a pole half a block away, another (a sideflash) to my west-side-of-the-house ham antenna (no damage besides the antenna).  Later the parents' TV antenna on the same house blew down and needed replacing.  One of my brothers and I did the install with special attention to the grounding.  A decade or so later that proved to be fortunate:  That antenna took a direct hit.  Half-killed the TV and blew a lightbulb in the garage but didn't do any other substantial damage.  Congrats all around.

Worked at Willow Run Labs on a computer operation in the late 60s / early 70s.  Willow Run Airport is on an alluvial plain (the level area just past where the ice-age glaciers stopped).  Major electrical storm blew across the couple miles of dead-flat airport, building up a charge, which it dumped in a strike to the first high thing it found - the jacobs-ladder switch on the pole beside the substation at the WWII hanger containing our computer.  Fried the big substation transformer and exploded the surge arresters on the poles all up and down that side of the airport.

In the mid '80s I moved into a house in Ann Arbor and within a month or so had a direct hit on the transformer pole behind the house.  Blew the oven relay and sparked through the drywall to the shell of a light fixture.  DIDN'T kill my computer (and early Unix box) which I'd shut down for the storm duration - miracle of miracles.

At my Nevada ranch a lightning storm laid a direct hit on the pole across the street about 100 feet from the house (and two poles from our drop).

So you bet that if/when I install any RE equipment at the ranch it WILL NOT be an "Ungrounded Lightning Rod".  B-)

dnix71

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2018, 07:42:24 PM »
Ungrounded Lightning Rod I was born and raised in Tampa, Florida and have lived in Fort Lauderdale for over 30 years. I hide indoors and turn off or unplug valuables when lightning srikes nearby and I don't leave home with anything other that the fridge running. It's reflexive.

The power companies, TECO and FPL, ground all the poles with bare copper and wooden poles require heavy tie cables.

I have only witnessed 2 strikes that made me jump. One nearly killed a coworker as she was stepping out the back door at work to go to her car in a violent thunderstorm. If it had been me I would have waited 15 minutes. Better to get there late than not at all. The other strike went horizontal for 1/4 mile to strike an Australian Salt Pine and then went underground and burst a 6 inch water main. The salt pines were planted as wind breaks, but they spread unchecked and are now illegal to plant. The water main got fixed quick because the woman I was doing a Memorial Day cleanup with had a brother who worked for the city's water department. He got double OT to stop the leak on a national holiday.

The same city has the THOR lightning warning system in the public park down the street. If you hear the siren it means there have been close strikes already and you better get inside.

OperaHouse

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2018, 11:07:55 AM »
Hey dnix71. The Turnigy still works.  When i got it from you the 3.3V regulator was shorted.  After the strike the regulator shorted again.  Replaced and it still works.  That thing has 9 lives.

Interesting that two things that worked after the storm went up in smoke two hours later.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2018, 01:06:56 PM »
Interesting that two things that worked after the storm went up in smoke two hours later.

Not uncommon AFAIK.  Lightning can damage stuff that then damages other stuff by misbehaving.

For instance:  In that Willow Run Labs strike it took out the computer (serial # 6 of Cray's FIRST mainframe, the CDC 1604.  Hundreds of KILO flops.  B-) ) weeks later, when the fired substation transformer was replaced and power was restored.

The machine had four small 3-phase 400-cycle power supplies in each corner of each of the eight "doors" full of logic.  The 400 cycle power came from a motor-generator in the next room.

The strike took out some diodes in the regulator of the mogen.  When the tech switched it on (expecting the big piece of rotating electrical machinery to either work or be dead), the regulator thought the genny wasn't putting out and turned up the excitation ALL THE WAY.  The resulting overvoltage popped enough (discrete!) transistors that it was several more weeks before the instruction sequencer was repaired enough to get all the way around to "fetch next instruction" and work could begin on the data path sections.

One of the problems with more modern electronics is that it's MOS - metal-oxide-semiconductor, i.e. FETs with the metal gate separated from the semiconductor channel by a microscopically thin layer of glass.  Overvoltage between the gate and the channel will crack the glass.  But the transistor will STILL work.  For a while.  But metal ions gradually migrate through the crack and eventually cause the transistor to fail.  And there's no way to tell in advance that this has happened or how soon it will die.

MOS chips used to have to be handled VERY carefully to avoid being killed by human body static discharges.  (conductive pads, wrist bands grounded through resistance, etc.)  They're still handled that way, just to be safe.  But now the leads in/out of the package have protective diodes to the + and - power rails.  Their size is a compromise:  Big enough to protect against typical handling discharges, without being big enough that their capacitance slows the signals unacceptably.  (Nevertheless, a LOT of power is consumed wiggling I/O lines to get fast signals between chip packages, and much of that is protective diode capacitance.)

But "body model" and lightning are SO many orders of magnitude apart that those diodes are not all that useful.  Also:  The INTERNAL conductors on the chip don't have such protection and can pick up enough voltage from capacitance to a nearby lightning channel (or a really charged person handling a chip's package or just passing his hand over it) to blow gates.  (So we still use the conductive containers, resistive pads, and such.)

You should be prepared for one or more of your electronic devices to fail over the next few months.  It might not happen, but the probability went 'way up when that bolt hit.  Now would be a good time to look at obtaining spares of, or alternative solutions for, anything small-electronic, modern, and mission-critical.

If you were thinking of replacing something electronic with a newer model "one of these months now", this would be a good time to get around to it.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2018, 01:20:17 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

OperaHouse

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2018, 03:13:26 PM »
It seems like every day I find something new that doesn't work. Yesterday it was a blown power meter on the kitchen inverter.  Today the garage system was dead with a breaker open.  The Morningstar SL-10 was shorted. Too bad it is potted in epoxy.  For now I replaced it with a cheap buck converter.

Mary B

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2018, 04:51:53 PM »
The high voltage caused by a strike break down the insulation of capacitors and damage the semiconductor gates in transistors/IC's so they eventually fail later down the road. I say it often doing consumer electronic repair and we would hold the insurance claim open for 30 days with the understanding that more equipment may die within the next year from the strike.

DanG

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2018, 11:11:24 AM »
My last lightning encounter had me seeing an 'upward streamer' of static electricity potential just out of reach from my fingertips - there can be hundreds of streamers competing for the lowest resistance path that completes a lightning strike discharge... Call it a corona discharge threshold being exceeded to form upward streamers seeking to attach onto its sky spark other half...

So, as a strike survivor, look around for a hundred feet or more in any direction from where the main strike happened and imagine a frenzy of hundreds of ionized air tendrils getting drawn skyward, some reaching dozens of feet or yards in length, earth charge seeking opposite sky charge that ALSO happens to be cooking electronics, the strike path & induced surge from the actual strike has a dramatic kill effect for sure but having St Elmo's Fire leaking from any & everything is cooking electronics too even if the main bolt gets drawn fifty of a hundred yards away.

One of the lightning suppression methods is to increase number of sharp pointed air-terminated conductors - like grounded anti-bird roosting metal spike strips - that dissipate the ground charge into so many separate channels none of them can grow long enough to out-compete some other area so that then draws down the main bolt - by farming a thousand corona discharge points you help guide the main strike onto some non-protected area, like nearby trees fence poles, neighbors houses, power lines... 

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,134134.msg879731.html  <--- wow time flies by fast

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2018, 12:44:33 PM »
... earth charge seeking opposite sky charge that ALSO happens to be cooking electronics, the strike path & induced surge from the actual strike has a dramatic kill effect for sure but having St Elmo's Fire leaking from any & everything is cooking electronics too even if the main bolt gets drawn fifty of a hund yards away

E-fields strong enough to ionize the air and produce feet of corona streamers trying to connect to a nearby leader are certainly a killer for semiconductors near to, or touching, them.  But the moments just after the strike can cause damage by another mechanism, too.

The surge in the miliseconds after the strike doesn't require the strike to be nearby, or even cloud-to-ground.  In fact, the ground-currents spreading out from the edge of the cloud's electrical shadow are actually worse than those right under it.  So the damage is more widespread.

As the cloud-to-ground field builds up before the strike, charge accumulates below the cloud.  Once the cloud gets substantially discharged by a strike, that charge is no longer pulled.  It goes away by self-repelling and spreading out - violently.  At and beyond the cloud shadow's edge you get ground currents comparable to an actual strike.

The area beneath the cloud is the middle of a dual-capacitor voltage-divider, and the cloud discharges fast enough that the effective frequency is very high.  Lightning currents in a conductor will jump through the air rather than take a sharp bend in the conductor, due to the tiny inductance of the bend.  Similarly, this high frequency causes skin effect in the ground, keeping this current initially concentrated in the top bit of soil moisture, possibly the very top of the soil which just got moistened by the rain.  (Also in reasonably straight metal conductors, of course.)  Any interruption of this path - like by a drainage ditch, with wet soil in the banks above the actual water level - and the ground current is likely to throw a bolt across the gap rather than pass under it.

(This is why, just like you don't take shelter from lightning under a tree, you don't take it in a ditch.  Come a ground-current surge and YOU're in the path across the ditch with the shortest gap.  B-b )

But the large charge discharges slowly enough that there are LOW frequency components that can TAKE bends.  So your wires, or plumbing, don't have to be straight to bring current in from acres of "antenna" / "capacitor plate" to hunt for a discharge path through your house and its electric equipment.  Well or septic field on one side of a gap, electric or phone feed on the other, and oops!  (But in an across-a-gap bolt, the ionization raises the conductivity and the magnetic field creates a "pinch effect", so the current stays in the bolt for a longer time, rather than spreading out.)

My brother (also and electric/electronic techie) tells of a guy he knew in Michigan with a farmhouse, out in a field, at the end of a long drainage ditch.  Though his house wasn't hit, practically every time a thunderstorm came near (about every three days in the summer) he'd lose some piece of electronics, from the electrical fun-and-games when the ground currents went through his house rather than across the ditch.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 12:57:03 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Harold in CR

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2018, 01:39:44 PM »
What an interesting write up about how lightning acts. Thanks for that  information, Ungrounded lightning rod.

 I recently purchased a couple of bronze 5/8" couplers to use as an extended ground rod system for my house. Power company said just drive a couple rods in a close proximity to the existing one, but, when I was a lineman, we used to megher the rods we drove and always strived for 3 in line to get deeper into better contact with the ground.

Mary B

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2018, 04:52:12 PM »
My ground system is 9 rods in a rough X shape all bonded together and bonded to the house electrical ground. 8 foot gorund rods that are 16 feet from each other and connected with #6 solid copper. The spread out ground system plus the HF vertical antenna ground system of over 60 wires(Also connected to the main ground system) laid on the ground surface 5 years ago(now buried in the grass) spreads any lightning strike potential out.

Harold in CR

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2018, 07:48:49 AM »
 Good idea, Mary. I would have to surround the house to get the distance because the house was built right on the corner of the property  ::) Since the wife was zapped a while back, we just unplug everything and sit with the battery light system, or, just go to bed. Usually, these thunderstorms only last for 15-30 minutes or so, but, they can play hell while in the area.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2018, 12:16:13 PM »
My ground system is 9 rods in a rough X shape all bonded together and bonded to the house electrical ground. 8 foot gorund rods that are 16 feet from each other and connected with #6 solid copper.

A downside to a spread-out ground system is ground currents from a nearby strike, as well as currents from a strike on something connected to it.  You need your connecting wire to be thick enough to still be a wire after carrying the current from a stroke or a ground surge that decided going from one ground rod to another via the wire between them was easier than going through the ground resistance.

Fortunately, lightning currents, though enormous, last a very short time.  Also, the inductance of the bend between the rod and the wire, along with any bends in the wire, discourages this path somewhat.  It will not bother the low frequencies of powerline AC and will be a small component for radio frequencies low enough for the ground system to be part of the antenna, and will still give you substantial lightning protection as most of the stroke current will go through the wire and, if the bend is too sharp, "cut the corner" rather than find some other path.  Still, if you're actually getting hit by bolts or sideflashes more than once a decade, you might want to consider using wire in the some-zeros range, or copper tubing.  (Due to the skin effect most of the lightning current is near the surface of the conductor, so there's no need for all that copper beneath it.)

Did you ever notice that historic lightning rod ground-path "wire", in addition to being about an inch thick and taking corners with wide, gradual bends, has a square cross-section and a slight twist?  That's to provide a tiny bit of inductance near the surface and encourage the current to distribute through more of the conductor, rather than melting or vaporizing the surface or going somewhere else.  Modern lightning rod ground cable designs include heavy flat wire braid, basket-woven conductors, bundles of uninsulated twisted pair which are themselves twisted, or "stranded" wire with a few heavy conductors, layered and again with a gradual twist (and power-pole guy wires have that last structure as well).  These all do the same thing.

Another thing:  Ever notice that glass ball on some lightning rods?  It's not (just) decoration.  It's an instrument.  If the rod takes a direct hit, the ball shatters.  Then you know it's time to climb the roof and walls, inspect the system(and the building) for damage, (and replace the glass ball B-) ).  Lightning rods don't stop attracting bolts if the ground system has a gap in it due to a previous bolt's current, but they are then the opposite of protection.

DanG

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2018, 03:12:14 PM »
A cue from my old neighbor Uncle George, he had his city lot rigged for Ham Radio ground plane before he built the house - leave a pigtail up to surface at buried ground // reflector run terminations to find in the future to check continuity. I can still remember him peeling sod back at his property corners and back lot line to ensure lightning/corrosion/frost heave hadn't parted his lines...

Harold in CR

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2018, 05:29:49 PM »
I'm getting old, but I remember being a kid and seeing all the ground apparatus as the Basket weave or open style conductors and those glass balls on the peaks of buildings. The conductors were also on standoffs, not laying flat on the roofs.

 Down here, in the jungle, the ground rods are not threaded and they are steel, with I suspect, electroplated copper. After 5 years or so, the part protruding out of the ground, shows pure steel, no coating. Also, when I made my ground rod connecting wire, I used 2 strands of #6 copper, skinned clean and they are twisted 20 times, I just checked.   We live on top of a hill, and lightning strikes are common rather than once every 10 years.

 I would like to start a thread about Tesla's atmospheric electron collection, but, a similar thread was treated as "free electricity", and had no input. I have been studying this concept, and hope to visit a farm in NW Florida where they doing this and harnessing the results. They were just chosen by NASA as one of the top organizations in the USA and hold many world wide patents. Their studies are extremely interesting.

I would really like to get a thread going IF there will be input and not necessarily all negative. I will provide a link to the ones in NW Florida in the new thread.  I mention this here, because I am afraid to string a collector wire around our place because of the lightning. 

JW

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2018, 06:14:30 PM »
Quote
I would like to start a thread about Tesla's atmospheric electron collection, but, a similar thread was treated as "free electricity",

https://www.amazon.com/Tesla-Man-Time-Margaret-Cheney/dp/0743215362

JW

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2018, 07:25:21 PM »
Quote
I would really like to get a thread going IF there will be input and not necessarily all negative. I will provide a link to the ones in NW Florida in the new thread.  I mention this here, because I am afraid to string a collector wire around our place because of the lightning.

This idea for a new thread is good.

Harold in CR

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2018, 10:46:31 PM »

 OK then. I will start figuring out how to ease into this new thread. I recently watched a group do ground penetrating radar on the Wardencliff site that Tesla built, and they discovered a massive ground system, similar to what Mary recently posted.

 What section to put this new thread under would be OK ?

JW

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Re: Just hit by lightning
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2018, 11:11:28 AM »
I read that book it was pretty good. Put the new thread in the Diary's section