Water to pump water for irrigation

[DenverDave]

Almost all posts in the hydro section of the forum are about using flowing water to generate electricity, which is great, but my need is different.   We have a flowing stream in the middle of a valley that is lower than the surrounding meadow to be irrigated.  There are two existing diversion dams that direct water into irrigation ditches for flood irrigation (another discussion needed).   However the most upstream portion and surrounding meadow is hard to irrigate.  The original irrigation ditch is 3/4 of a mile into the upstream neighbor's property, if fairly hard to access and the stream bed has lowered, making in increasingly harder to put in a seasonal dam to direct water into the upstream ditch.

My idea is that maybe somehow we could use the flow of the stream to power a device that would pump a lesser amount of water up to the level of the surrounding meadow - maybe 10 feet higher at most at the higher edges.    An added complication is that no electricity is available in this location and while we have used gasoline powered pumps, it is somewhat remote making it hard to refill the engines and costly to keep them running for periods of time.

Fair game is a water wheel that turns a generator that produces electricity that runs an electric pump and indeed, perhaps this should be the bench mark to evaluate other approaches.   While somewhat rare for irrigation use, in modern times, there are devices like ram pumps, spiral water wheel pumps, direct lift water wheels and water wheels that can power mechanical water pumps that use a lot of water to pump a smaller amount of water.   Each of the approaches have their advantages and issues, few are commercially available and I currently have no idea of the specific trade-offs and which are working out better.

I'm searching for others interested in using water to pump water, including "water wheel pumps'.    If you know anyone like this, perhaps you can help make them aware of this post and help us connect.   

Thanks.
Dave

[Sir Veyor]

This is just a cut and paste from google docs, but it lists some details and gives contact information to M.R. Jacobs, a Canadian. I haven't contacted him, but hopefully the email is still active.

He describes some problems and improvements. Especially in a more resource rich environment, you could get a big boost. Hopefully I've disable all links enough...

Videos of the pump in operation are viewable at
MALAWICAN
Innovation for Progress and Sustainable Development
malawican [ at ] gmail.com
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT & ACCESS TO WATER in MALAWI
by
Peter Jacobs
UNITERRA-WUSC Volunteer With CADECOM - Blantyre
 
Other information can be obtained through:
Peter Jacobs
4316 Varsity Drive NW
Calgary, AB T3A 1A2 , CANADA
Cell.: +403-481-4370
Malawican [ at ] gmail.com
 

[DamonHD: edited: possibly best not to make things too easy for SPAM bots]

[skid]

The easiest method would be to build an undershot water wheel with a roll of poly piping and scoop on it. This was my original plan before I built my wheel. The video below is a commercial version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA_zNhyN6Fw

Just do some internet searching as there is quite a bit of info out there. The most important part is the rotary coupling for the hose/wheel.

[DenverDave]

Thanks Sir Veyor - your post turned out to be a very good lead and google docs does seem to be working for Peter Jacobs to document his project.   He mentioned he would be interested as serving as a clearing house for people interested - I sent him a facebook group invite and I'll follow-up with him during business hours.

He has a nice document with good information - thanks.

How did you manage to find the Malawican project?

[DenverDave]

Hi Skid - my  inclination has also been to go with an undershot water wheel, although many people are pushing the overshot and breast shot for performance.   All types may not be options at some locations.  An overshot might tend to shed off debris rather than getting it stuck under the blades if fixed in location.  The Barsha pump that you linked (they have fixed and floating) might ride up over debris, not sure.

On the rotary coupling, amazing how little is said, however, a getting some information.  One person used some waterproof bearing (I guess there are such a thing) and fixed them in a plastic pipe by heating it.    A couple have used quick  connect garden hose couplings - not sure of the friction and would be limited diameter flow through, but let's hope we have enough volume of pumped water to be an issue. 

Thanks.

 

[joestue]

https://lurkertech.com/water/pump/tailer/

if you tilt the whole thing at an angle there is no rotary union required, provided you can support the pipe long enough to get the hight you need, then dump the water into a bucket and gravity feed to where you want it.

it looks like practically you can get 41% efficiency from these types of pumps. that's better than an 80% efficient permanent magnet generator feeding a 60% efficient induction motor, feeding a 60% efficient centrifugal pump.

[DenverDave]

if you tilt the whole thing at an angle there is no rotary union required, provided you can support the pipe long enough to get the hight you need, then dump the water into a bucket and gravity feed to where you want it.

it looks like practically you can get 41% efficiency from these types of pumps. that's better than an 80% efficient permanent magnet generator feeding a 60% efficient induction motor, feeding a 60% efficient centrifugal pump.

We have a linked youtube video by Pross Taylor from the facebook group that does just this.   A 5 gallon bucket with horizontal coils and plastic buckets accepting an overshot stream.   A bit of an odd contraption, but seems to work for him and as I'm sure he realizes, could be optimized in several ways.    As you described, he has the wheel tilted at an angle with the exit pipe going up a hill to a point where he collects the output water.   Strangely, seems to work well for him and if he can gain the height quickly and have gravity fed distribution why not.    It would be interesting to know the friction difference between his approach and a coupling (whole discussion on couplings needed).  Obviously if the application required the water to be pumped very far or high, this might not work.     I'm disappointed he hasn't come out with a 2018 version.

[skid]

On the rotary coupling, amazing how little is said, however, a getting some information.  One person used some waterproof bearing (I guess there are such a thing) and fixed them in a plastic pipe by heating it.    A couple have used quick  connect garden hose couplings - not sure of the friction and would be limited diameter flow through, but let's hope we have enough volume of pumped water to be an issue. 

Thanks.

I should have said rotary union not coupling. There are all kinds of rotary unions for sale. Just Google rotary unions...

[Sir Veyor]

Thanks Sir Veyor - your post turned out to be a very good lead and google docs does seem to be working for Peter Jacobs to document his project.   He mentioned he would be interested as serving as a clearing house for people interested - I sent him a facebook group invite and I'll follow-up with him during business hours.

He has a nice document with good information - thanks.

How did you manage to find the Malawican project?

From a spot called “No Tech Magazine”. It's a good jumping off spot for lots of things and have multiple follow ups and random links to other articles they have.

It's where I found an inexpensive, low cost, small scale Compressed air system I might try to make using fire extinguishers or other tanks that aren't either worth hydro testing or failed the testing but are still sound. But the principal paper that details the system is an academic project behind a pay site or something. But that lead me to “greatballofirel username who was building a system. That led me here. But I can't seem to find that build yet. This site uses an interface I'm not that familiar with, so my searching isn't that great here yet.

[Adriaan Kragten]

In my public report KD 598, I describe a floating water turbine with the PM-generator of a windmill which is meant to charge a 12 V battery (see my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports). In stead of a battery one can use a 12 V diaphragm pump of for instance manufacture Shurflo. However, the amount of water supplied by such a pump will be enough for drinking water but too low for irrigation. A disadvantage of the electrical transmission in between the PM-generator and the DC pump motor is the power loss due to the efficiency of the generator and the pump motor. An advantage is that a large accelerating gearing is gained, so the pump can be small for a certain flow. Another advantage is that the generated electrical power can be used for other purposes than water pumping. May be this principle can be used if a larger water turbine and a larger pump is used.

The efficiency loss can be prevented if the pump is directly driven by the water turbine. However, the water turbine will have a rather low rotational speed and therefore one must use a positive displacement pump as such a pump supplies water at low rotational speeds. But a positive displacement pump has about a constant torque and this requires a water turbine with a high starting torque coefficient. In my report KD 542, I describe a diaphragm pump with three diaphragms. This pump has almost a constant torque and flow. The little fluctuation in the flow can be flattened by using a flexible hose for the first part of the pipe to the reservoir. In my report KD 651, I describe the 4-bladed VIRYA-3.6L2 windmill rotor which has a high starting torque coefficient. Assume that you scale down this rotor up to a diameter of 1.8 m and that you use this rotor as water turbine (you have to check the strength of the rotor for use in water). I estimate that the river isn't deep enough to submerse the rotor completely. Assume that the rotor is submersed half. So half the rotor area is effective. I expect that the given diaphragm pump is too small for direct drive but it can be coupled to the water turbine by an accelerating gearing using a tooth belt. For direct drive it will be necessary to make the pump much bigger.

I can make some calculations for this option in a new public KD-report but therefore I must know the water speed, the depth of the river, the height in between the river and the upper part of the reservoir, the distance of the reservoir and the river and the wanted water flow per day.

[DenverDave]

Thanks for the information Adriaan.   I'd not heard the term "positive displacement pump" - as I'm sure you know, determining the right search terms is crucial for finding information on the internet.  While I'm currently favoring water powered pumps, solar and wind energy are also possibilities.   I used to think of our off grid location as low wind, but last year was different - very very dry and fair amount of wind - not good for the forest fires.   Wow - you have quite a bit of information on windmills on your website - thanks.

Oddly, I have a WindTrans Zelda pump which is supposed to pump water at 10 RPM's.  I've yet to build a water wheel to try it out.  I see that many of the other styles of pumps I've looked at are "positive displacement pumps".    I'm hoping to compare the amount of water that can be pumped for irrigation between pumps like the Zelda, spiral pumps and maybe direct lift pumps if I can figure out how to get the water to go where I want.

Thanks.

 

[Adriaan Kragten]

I have Googled on Wind Trans Zelda pump and I found the Canadian company which manufactures this pump. They supply several video's about this pump and the output at low rpm is impressive. However, on non of the videos they show how the pump works. From the outside geometry, I conclude that it must be a vane pump but it isn't clear if it is a vane pump with a flexible impeller like also used for cooling water in boat engines or if it has vanes which move inwards and outwards a rotor which is turning in an eccentric chamber. Have you opened the pump and can you tell me how it works?

[tanner0441]

Hi

Look on google at ram pumps as long as you have a reasonable fall a ram pump will pump water 24 hours a day no moving parts other than a flap or pop valve.

a lot of developing countries are littered with them.

Brian

[Adriaan Kragten]

A ram pump supplies a small amount of water at a high pressure so it is a good option if you have a small river flowing from a steep hill and if you need only drinking water. But for irrigation you need a large flow at a low pressure and therefore a ramp pump can't be used.

[hiker]

Drip line.....  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xZOTdCPyOIM

[Mary B]

I use drip irrigation. Instead of putting water in the air where it evaporates I put it at the roots where it is needed. Uses about 1/4 the water normal sprinkling would.

[DenverDave]

I think that drip irrigation is a nice technique to have available.   Especially with many techniques to pump water with water do not pump all that much water, so good to make a little go a long way.   
Thanks.

[keithturtle]

Pressure compensated drip irrigation from Netafim

https://www.timesofisrael.com/what-israeli-drips-did-for-the-world/

Make a little water go a long way and overcome distribution gradient

Turtle

[Mary B]

My system runs at 10PSI I have a pressure reducer on the filter for the drip tape.

For row crop I use this drip tape the medium flow 4" on center emitters.  https://www.dripworks.com/dripworks-100-drip-tape-rolls
For the container herb garden area I use 3 of these per container, the 1GPH https://www.dripworks.com/take-apart-emitters

Drip Works has some of the best prices out there on garden irrigation stuff! My go to source and no I am not paid by them to promote their products, I wish! Use about $100 worth of products a year... usually from lawn mower accidents LOL I have to replace my main line this year, chewed the side of it with the mower deck last year. Taped it up but it still leaks. I am revamping the garden to wider rows this year so I can get in there with a rolling seat for weeding to take pressure off my spine. Need to downsize, body is telling me no more giant garden.

[Generator]

Have you got any suitable solution for irrigation or still looking for solutions?