Author Topic: Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT  (Read 3859 times)

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oneirondreamer

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Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT
« on: August 12, 2019, 03:28:14 PM »
Hello Otherpowers Fieldliner's !

I'm sharing this because I'd like feedback on my validation process and because like most of you.   We feel the wind passing, and we know that more ways to convert some of that energy to useful Watts, would be a good thing.   I'm not against the current designs at all.   I see though that many of the windiest places in the world are not accessible to modern turbines due to turbulence and wind shift (most of the worlds mountainous regions).   As well I think these systems could be ideal for kinetic hydro, though that's a very different market. 

I think I'm on to something that hasn't been well exploited in the past.   Designing for high Reynolds number airfoils is a very well understood and developed process, but at low Reynolds numbers, where viscosity effects dominate flow, much less work has been done and less is understood.

I'm not sure that this is the right place in the forums for this discussion, and if a moderator wishes to move it, I'm fine with that.

One of the Moderators contacted me to let me know that if I supply them with some links, they can attach them to the post.   I'll put together a list and hopefuly they will see fit to attach it here.

Because of the strong background I see here in Aerodynamics, I'll share my thinking about how these types of turbines work.   I'm clearly standing on the shoulders of much more educated people than I and I'm not sure that I've got this all right.   

The design I've focused on originates with Captian Savonius, who for good context, as I understand was trying to create a self powering Flettner rotor, and realized that it had potential far beyond that, but wasn't able to do good empirical work in assessing his prototypes.   

The Blackwell report from the 70's is a mess, as far as I know no one has come close to reproducing it's work in the real world, and Ian Ross, with his paper “Wind tunnel blockage correction factors in high solidity turbines” around 2010 helps us to see why the data around VAWT's has been all over the place in wind tunnel testing.   VAWT's have regularly tested very well in wind tunnels and then failed to perform in the real world, especially small VAWT's.    Not clearly understanding the extremes effects of wind tunnel blockage correction factors, means that researchers from Blackwell to today have had a hard time understanding the discrepancy between tunnel and real world results.   Another issue that was screened by wind tunnel testing is the very strong effects of even minor turbulence on small modern HAWT's and VAWT's with narrow blades.     

One upside of Blackwells work though is that his AB testing showed that a 3 bucket system would have higher torque potential, but spin at a lower speed and have less total Watts collected. 

Interestingly, in looking for technology that functions at low Reynolds numbers, Tesla's turbine is a boundary layer turbine that operates at very low Reynolds numbers.   As far as I've been able to determine, Tesla's turbine has been tested to a maximum efficiency of around 50%, and the physics of scaling them up is poor.   They are not a miracle device, but a device that shows another path from kinetic energy to shaft power.   I now think about my turbine as a sort of 3D expanded version of a single side of a Tesla disk, operating as a boundary layer turbine, on the outside of the bucket.

The idea is that when a leading edge is pointing toward the wind, and the TSR is appropriately managed to between .75 and 1 (theoretical) then the wind adhears to the leading edge, with the difference in velocity causing torque on the leading edge.   As the air (fluid) passes along that surface, it gets close to the center of the turbine, so the velocity of the surface is lower, and again this mismatch results in a pull, of energy being transferred to the turbine.   As it reaches the center, it's velocity is quite low, and by that point the turbine has revolved 180 deg, and so the energy reduced wind is swept away by energetic new flow.

I did not originate this thinking or these idea's, (that a Savonius is not simply a drag based device), but encountered it in papers by Benesh, Modi, and Fernando,  and probably others.  As I'm not an educated person and learning this from my own research, I'm not great at keeping track of who to give credit too.   The Benesh, Modi and Fernando team (at UBC?)  produced a Savonius type in which the buckets were flattened, and this produced a turbine with much more power compared to the conventional Savonius as measured in their wind tunnel tests, where they unfortunately also were not fully aware of the blockage effects on the turbines.    This meant that while they measured a substantive improvement vs the Savonius gemometry developed in the Blackwell report, they still were not able to reproduce these results in the real world.   

It's true that companies like Windside, and Gus, have claimed Cp's of 0.21, real world results seem to be between Cp 0.05 - 0.12 which aligns with the wind tunnel work done in 2010 by Ian Ross.    If anyone has results of wind tunnel studies where the blockage was below 5%, I'd appreciate a link or copy, or even better, real world results.

So this thinking brought me to the 2007 patent.    At the time of filing that patent, I was getting between 10-15% efficiency, a bit better than a classic Savonius, but my device was much more labour intensive to make.    I'd spent a lot of time, money and energy, getting a data logging system and sensors, and learning how to use them, and do the math to understand what it all meant.   I can relate to the many experimenters trying to use bathroom scales and timing on wrist watches.     I'd been building different versions of the same helical structure, when a friend asked me if I'd ever tried twisting the foil the other direction.   Up to this time I'd only ever build them with a twist that resulted in the concave portion of the foil on the underside, and convex portion on top.   I'd noticed in video of me allowing smoke from upwind flares to pass through the turbine, that smoke that entered the turbine at about 1/2 to 1/3 height, exited well below that, being displaced downward.   I'd also noticed that as wind speed picked up, the turbines Cp went down substantially.    This made me conclude that the turbine was pumping air downward, and that at some point, being as close to the ground as it was, it might create a pressure bubble that could divert air around the turbine.   I created a new version, with the concave side up, in the twisted foil, and while it didn't self start reliably, it reached between 18-24%.   It did start better once I added a flat base, but still would in some orientations, not start up till the wind shifted.    I created the next version with a bit more twist, and larger height to width, and it self started reliably, and tested to above 24%.   While it did use the cross sectional geometry of the 2007 patent, the idea of which way to twist the foil was not addressed in the patent, though the patent clearly taught only one orientation, some patent lawyers have argued that the patent applies to the new design, but not all agree.   This geometry is downloadable from my thingiverse account.   

After that it became a business and I wasn't empowered to continue to improve the design.   I wasn't a very sophisticated business person and I made quite a few misjudgments, in the end allowing the company to be taken over by a very wealthy 90 year old who doesn't really believe in global warming, or see a need for alternative energy, other than to make him more money.    He brought in other investors, I was pushed out, and then he and the others couldn't agree on what to do when their engineering contractor did an inadequate job of drawing up plans.

After that I stayed on with the build contractor for a while, but eventually that ran out of money and they stalled.   

Of course during all this time, I continued to think about the design, and how it could be improved.   I'd followed the work of Rahai, (at CalTech?) where in experimenting with slots in Savonius variants in coming up with the 2007 patent.   He'd come up with extraordinary results, in a wind tunnel with a significant blockage factor.   He wasn't able to reproduce his wind tunnel results in the real world.   What I took from his work was a few things, that a bump near the center of rotation didn't hurt it's performance, that the height, or camber of the foil was very low, and that joined at the trailing edges (no overlap) was better than the 10% or so overlap which worked best in the versions tested by Blackwell.   

After looking at many low Reynolds number airfoils, I concluded that the “bump” may not have been as important as I had thought.    I also realized that while my turbine worked well, maybe better than any preceding VAWT of that size, it was likely that I got only a small part of it's total swept area “right”, and that part must be dragging the rest around.    I moved ahead with this thinking, and produced a curvy new turbine shape, but also realized that it was going to be just as difficult as my previous design to build.   In factory production this wouldn't be a big deal, but for R&D with no budget, it was a stumbling block.   

At the same time I'd been pushing forward a joined wing aircraft design I've been tossing around for many years.    In doing this and the research around it, I came upon the Faucetmobile, a design inspired by Barnaby Wainfan's research on lifting bodies, and flying wings with very low Reynolds numbers.    The Faucetmobile is a very startling boxy design, with no curved surfaces, and massive frontal area, yet flys more effieciently than most of the Cessna variations.    Barnaby has been willing to discuss it on the homebuiltaircraft forum, and he reports that flow remained attached as it transfers over the hard chines in the aircraft skin, because of the very low Reynolds numbers forcing flow to obey viscously, rather than intertially. 

With this in mind, I looked for ways to fauceting my new turbine design, especially ways that would allow it to be easily supported by an internal structure, and potentially skinned in fabric.   

To get us right up to date, I've now built my first model of it, as you've seen in the pics and on YouTube.    I'm just hooking up the instrumentation and getting ready to test.   I'm short on cash, and there's a few things I'm afraid may break down, including my very old truck, which I'm using as a test platform.   I'm also concerned that I've made the diameter too small to keep the Reynolds numbers low enough to make it insensitive to fauceting.       

More will be known soon.   

Thanks for all the help I've gotten here, both as direct answers to questions, and even more so as a repository of good questions and answers.   I'll also apologize in advance, for not nessesarily being able to respond to questions in a timely way.   I've got far more on my plate than I can comfortably handle, and I'm short on money, so I may not be able to respond as quickly as I'd like, as I may be caught up in other things.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 10:24:33 PM by Drewrt »

JW

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Re: Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 10:04:47 PM »
Were not OtherPowers :)

Were Fieldlines.com

I can say this because I bought the forum from the Dans a couple years ago.

We have setup a OtherPower section but there has been no activity.

Ok all the best :)

JW
 

MagnetJuice

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Re: Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 01:25:55 AM »
WOW! That's a lot to take in at once.

I showed my wife your videos of the white turbine, also the brown painted like a leaf and she really like it. She said that she would love to have one of those in our back yard. I agree with her, it is a really good looking design. What was the efficiency of that design?

By the way, you talk about the Tesla turbine having an efficiency of 50%. You also mention yours being 18%, 24% and other numbers. Are you using the same point of reference when talking about efficiency for different designs? And what is the point of reference?

Do all those turbines turn at close 1 TSR?

Ed
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oneirondreamer

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Re: Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 01:55:44 AM »
WOW! That's a lot to take in at once.

I showed my wife your videos of the white turbine, also the brown painted like a leaf and she really like it. She said that she would love to have one of those in our back yard. I agree with her, it is a really good looking design. What was the efficiency of that design?

By the way, you talk about the Tesla turbine having an efficiency of 50%. You also mention yours being 18%, 24% and other numbers. Are you using the same point of reference when talking about efficiency for different designs? And what is the point of reference?

Do all those turbines turn at close 1 TSR?

Ed

Thanks, it is more than a decades worth of work, but it often feels like I've been moving far too slow.    The Cedar turbine was only about 12% efficient at best, if I recall correctly.   It was the one where efficiency dropped off as wind increased.

The smaller white turbine (8ft tall), was measured by a consulting engineer to be 29%  (0.29 Cp).   The larger white turbine (16ft tall) was never properly measured, sadly, it now sits on it's side rotting.   In tests I conducted with very turbulent wind, I believe it may have worked at above 30%.   

I may have used the Tesla efficiency number incorrectly, they are not really comparable as one is an open flow, the other a constrained flow.   

In open flow turbines, the standard is generally to use the percentage of kinetic energy captured from fluid moving through the total swept area of the turbine.   The Betz limit is generally applicable to these types of turbines and uses the same general formula, measure the swept area, the kinetic energy available and transferred, the ratio of available to transferred is the percentage.   That is how I've calculated efficiency.   

The white turbines, when optimally loaded turned at about 1.3 TSR, with the "tip" being the largest diameter.   This is however probably a deceptive measure on a tapering turbine which has  a base larger than the blade.   My new design is cylindrical. 


SparWeb

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Re: Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2019, 02:07:03 PM »
Oneirondreamer,
Glad to see you back in action!
I believe you have full posting privileges: links, images and the like.  Go ahead and give it a try.  I would like to see the work you are referring to directly, rather than guess a search and hope I found the thing you mean.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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oneirondreamer

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Re: Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2019, 11:10:59 PM »
Thanks Sparweb,

Here's a link to my first road test of the new test system and faceted turbine.   


I'm data logging V, I, torque, and wind speed at 1000htz to a laptop.   A few days and I'll have a good idea of what the power curve looks like I hope.   I'm not that thrilled with how my alternator is working out at this stage, but more to say in a few days.

Best Wishes,
Drew

MagnetJuice

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Re: Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2019, 02:19:45 AM »
I'm glad to see that you are making progress. Can't wait to see the data.

I've been wondering about what kind of alternator you are using to do your testing. Is it a low RPM alternator? And what is its maximum output power?

Ed
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oneirondreamer

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Re: Faceted Helical Savonius VAWT
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 12:48:26 PM »
I'm glad to see that you are making progress. Can't wait to see the data.

I've been wondering about what kind of alternator you are using to do your testing. Is it a low RPM alternator? And what is its maximum output power?

Ed

Hi Ed,

I designed and built a 3D printable alternator for this project.   I'm not thrilled with it's performance, which you can see my data logs of, and design files here. 

https://www.instructables.com/id/3D-Printed-Low-KV-Axial-Flux-Alternator/

Though, as I think that through, only members may be able to download those files, so I should post them here if I can.   I've tried attaching what I think are the two most relevant bits of test data.   For anyone who wants, I could export the raw data as a CSV, just let me know.

By the end of putting together the alternator I was so anxious to get going on a turbine before I ran out of steam, I didn't really finish my characterization of the alternator.   I had some problems with 3D printed parts of my test rig, and so moved on to the turbine, as I didn't have access to a lathe to true up my setup. 

I'm hopeful that someone else who has a better understanding of these units will eventually help me understand it better.   I think that I've tried to make it too small a diameter.   As well now I'd like to try the Magnax style stators, which seem like a big step up in efficiency, though it does seem like they must cog at least a little.   

I tested this one on a rotating mount, with a load cell as an anti rotation device, but the drive motor I had was misaligned and produced an oscillation on the input, so it was hard to see what was really going on but it was clear that it could absorb quite a bit of torque.   I built 2 alts, so I have a second one still on the alt test bench if I need to reproduce any tests.

As really I'm trying to prove a turbine design, not an alternator, and even if the alt was low efficiency, it appeared to be able to create enough load to control the turbine.   In my test rig, the turbine shell and alternator revolve around a stationary axle.   The "stationary" axle is also mounted in bearings and would be free to rotate, except that I've used a load cell to hold it stationary.   This allows me to read real shaft torque, and not worry so much about electrical Watts at this stage, and I pick up RPM from the electrical system right now, but I think I'll hook up my optical gate position sensor.   I can't figure out how to automatically convert the ripple signal to RPM in real time.   The software I'm using I'm sure can do it, but it's meant for people who are a lot more educated than me on these things.  (It's an older, educational version of LabPro, data generated is automatically dumped into a spreadsheet where you can have real time calculations running, so you can multiply V&I to see real time Watts, as well as many other real time readouts like TSR and Cp.   I can't do all that right now because I don't have a rotation speed device hooked up, just manually pulling and calculating that by measuring the time passing over 16 ripples (8 pole rotor rectified).   

 Early on I realized that most experimenters were handcuffed by trying to create new rotors, and then trying to use uncharacterized alternators to prove them out (as well as usually having difficulty reading accurate wind speed).   Mixing three variables makes it pretty much impossible to understand what's going on.   

In my previous testing I used mechanical brakes as a load, which worked fairly well for moving platform testing, but even then I had a few almost fires in the brake, and it didn't work very well for stationary testing, as it was impossible for me to adjust the load fast enough to react to changes in wind speed.   Only the very best days and locations could produce any useful data, and I had to stand there for hours driving the thing.   I did end up with results that validated the moving platform, but it took too long.    This is why I've switched to alternators, and also just to show proof of concept, that it's possible to build a simple alternator that will be effective at the low RPM's I'm expecting. 
 

In this build I didn't make provisions for easily adjusting magnet gap, and I'm regretting it.   I can barely see the thing inside the turbine, and I'm not sure I got it closed down to the gap I had in the test bed.   

Good news is that in this setup run it seems like it was overloading, with TSR of around .5 so at least the alt is creating enough torque to slow the thing.   I am using a set of hand wound resistance coils as a load.   The run yesterday was at about .5 ohm    If the weather permits today I may do a few more runs above and below that resistance.    I also have to double check my height clearances.   Yesterday I may have touched someones data line, though I though I'd measured them all as clear.   The top of the turbine is fairly weak, so it wouldn't likely take out a line, but I don't need that kind of risk.

Best Wishes,
Drew