Do You Have a Sencenbaugh Operator's Manual?

[doubledipsoon]

I just purchased a 1979 Sencenbaugh Wind Generator, brand new, still in the shipping crates, but without an operator's manual. Anyone got an operator's manual? I'll pay a reward! Joe 831-726-1139

[DanG]

Hmnn - from homepower classified in 2002..

"Complete wind generator system.  Sencenbaugh 14-1000, 1.2 kW,12 VDC windmill on 100', Rohn 25G guyed tower.  8- 395 AH,Trogan L16-HC batteries were new in 1999.  Trace 2024inverter/charger, control panel and associated hardware.  I have asecond complete parts unit and a third set of blades.  Currently inoperation; upgrading to meet growing load.  $4,900 firm.  Dave@802-754-2318"

I wonder if Dave is still around...  Hmmm a quick google check says the phone number is assigned to a a 'David' 

[SparWeb]

No, but the NREL did tests on a unit about 20 years ago, and published a test report.

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy01osti/30299.pdf

It may have some relevant information for you.

Truck-testing, I might add.  There are some fieldlines folks who've been trying truck-bed tests recently and this may serve as an example.

[kitestrings]

Hi Joe,

I have one.  I'll can scan it and get it to you tomorrow.  I assume you have the 14-1000, that was the more popular, he also made a smaller, direct-drive 500 watt unit.

~ks

[kitestrings]

You looked in the box with the controller?  I think that is how they were shipped.  The original ones had a set of hand-drafted, approved blueprints.  Kind of dates it/me I guess.

[doubledipsoon]

Hi Kitestrings/Dave, thanks for the reply- this new/used Sencenbaugh 1000-14 is pristine. This particular unit was the precurser to the one I purchased from you a few years ago. This particular one has a double tail boom instead of the one thick pipe-type tail boom used on your later model. Anyway, I'm in the process of testing it out, you know, by applying the 53 watts at 48 volts to "excite" the field windings, and manually turning it to check on the voltage output. I'll also need a full bridge rectifier to convert the AC to DC. OK, I really need the "instruction manual" to determine torque bolt values, tail assembly "how-to", and any other tid-bit info on the unit. I'll call you in a few days to follow up on your reply on the operator's manual. PS I have to do the library for internet communication so bear with me on quick replies, thanks, Joe PS Is Jim S anywhere?

[kitestrings]

I sent it on the 18th.  If you email has change send me a pm.

You shouldn't need a rectifier unless you don't have a control box with it.  The original control box had the speed control printed circuit board, six power diodes, breakers, current shunt & analog meters.

I also don't know anything about applying 48V - it's not anything I've ever done.  As best I recall you connect a 12VDC battery/bank and if you spin it up to about 52 Hz it should start producing.  There is a field winding, so if you ground the (purple) field wire it gets full field.  You should be able to spin it up with a half-inch drill and socket.

I haven't talked to Jim for quite a awhile, but he was still responding to emails last time I tried. 

[kitestrings]

I understand now that you don't have a controller at all.

A few possible options I suppose:

Contact Jim

Try ebay, here, green power talk, AZ wind & sun, Hugh's forums to see if anyone still has one - there have to be some out there.

Build or adapt one.  The rectifier was robust with heat-sunk, stud-mounted diodes.  Aside from the control logic, they were pretty simple...but that part might be a challenge.  If your only running it sporadically, and when you're there, you could just short the -field, and then manage your battery charge level with one of the load burn regulator.

[doubledipsoon]

Kitestrings, thanks for the operator's manual. After reading it, I concluded that my 1979 14-1000 may be the same "model", but it is a different "version" of the same machine. Not only does it have a tubular tower mounting as opposed to a 4 bolt hortizontal mount plate, but the tail boom has a double mast as opposed to a single heavier tail boom. The tail attachment also has a different furling mechanism than the later "version". And lastly, the 5 wires coming out of the 3 phase alternator are of  different colors. I should probably try to contact Jim S for advice and instructions on proper assembly. Do you have his last email address? Thanks Joe

[kitestrings]

I sent you a pm with the last address that I had for Jim.  Not sure what he's up to now.  He be your best bet at getting a controller.

Are the leads marked in any fashion?  I'll look at the information I have when I get home.  I used to know the approximate resistance of the field windings and phase leads.  I'm sure I have it noted somewhere.  I may also have some older drawings that provide more.

[kitestrings]

I found a hand-written note (to myself) in the manual that said, "per Jim: phase to phase line resistance = .3-.4 ohms; field should be 3.5-10 ohms."

On the models that we had the AC wires were black and the field wires were red.

[doubledipsoon]

Hi Kitestrings, after researching 3 phase alternators, I realized that the 3 AC wires coming out of the alternator can be connected "in any order" (no polarity) to the 3 phase rectifier, right before it's rectified and hooked up to the + and - DC control panel inputs of the wind generator. OK, so that's taken care of. As far as the field winding wires of the alternator goes, one is green (negative), and one is red (positive). I'm assuming that these are hooked up accordingly to my 12 volt battery pack, and the 52 watts max that is needed for the field windings (info from an old brochure of the 14-1000) for excitation will "automatically" be delivered to the windings- evidently the field windings take what they need. (?) This is according to Sam at Missouri Sun and Wind.  After giving up on finding an original  control panel for this "new" 1979 14-1000, I bought a Coleman Air 440 HVA Diversion Control Charge Controller for wind/sun applications. Craig at Coleman assured me that these units will not only regulate and dump excess battery voltage into a dump load, but will accommodate solar panels, something that the original Sencenbaugh control panels couldn't do. These 440 HVA's are for permanent magnet wind generator alternator's so I will have to either keep the field windings hooked up permanently to the battery bank, or figure out a way to integrate a speed sensor into the field winding/battery connections. I'm in the process of setting up this shinny new 150+ lb alternator onto a 24" piece of 3.0" OD, 2.76" ID DOM into cement to hoist the unit into, so I can spin it for voltage output and figure out the tail furling hookup- I do have a "mystery part" that I suspect goes someplace in the tail boom-to- furling cable area that I am still unsure of. It is a  8-9" long rod, roughly 3/4" diameter, with 2 swivel joints on it. Does that part ring a bell? Without assembly directions, it's been hit and miss, but I'm sure, sooner or later, I'll figure it all out! All part of the adventure! Joe

[kitestrings]

Most of you've described is correct.  The only thing that I'm not sure about is the load on the field windings.  If the field windings are say 5 ohms, then the current at 14.4V would be 2.9A, or about 41 watts, so this sounds logical.

It is a shunt-wound field, so yes, the output or loading is controlled by the field strength, and full output would be connecting the + and - to the field windings.  The problem of course is it will draw power continuously without the "frequency sensor network", or an alternate method.  It could just be a manual switch (when you're there, and when there is sufficient wind) for starters I suppose.

Jim's controller monitors frequency for speed.  And, rpm = (freq * 60)/ (#poles / 2).  As I recall the the cut-in is reach at 52 Hz, which is about 520 rpm/ 3 (3:1 gear ratio) = 175 rpm.  I'm suspect that is what the 52 value is is...

I know nothing about the Coleman, but it sounds similar to the tri-star diversion being discussed here:
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=150001.0

The odd part I think is just a swivel.  Look at pg 42 #item, or an earlier version of this.  Does that look like it?

[doubledipsoon]

Page 42 is a parts list for the "Propeller Assembly Detail"- no drawing of that page. ....By the way, that mystery part is a 15" long, 1/2" thick stainless rod with 2 swivel joints, one in the middle, one at the end. I took a few pics of it, but when I push, "insert image" under attachments, on this site, it doesn't go through (Technology!). .....The frequency sensor is the way I'm going to go- got a few people to call.  Did you ever finish up your axial flux wind machine? Is it up on that super tall Rohn tower that your Senc. used to be on?

[doubledipsoon]

Dave, I just sent you a few pictures of my "mystery part" to your other email address. And I threw in a photo of my 14-1000 "double boom tail" that I found in an old publication. Any bells ringing now?

[kitestrings]

Sorry for the confusion, that should have been pages numbered 35 & 36 (on the pdf viewer it is pg 42), but I can see now this is not what I'd thought.  Nope; I've never seen this hardware:


To venture a couple guesses, I'd say either a guide-arm for the tail, or possibly an actuator that goes at the base of the tower and allows you to slide, and maybe lock it, in the furled position.

If you could locate a board - I assume you sold the last ones I'd shipped (with the rebuilt unit) - that would be the simplest.

There are some folks (Flux?) that have posted rpm sensing circuits on this board.  One that we've used was this:
https://sites.google.com/site/rpmmeter/

I'm not sure if he's still doing them, but might be worth a call (Brian).

Our 15' axial has been up for about six years now.  Parts of it currently down for maintenance & paint; nearly ready.  It is on an 85' 45G.  we took down the lighter, 25G tower.

[JW]

Flux could explain things in the most possible way. We all miss him... Unfortunately he has passed on, from what ive heard he had cancer.

Best

JW   

[kitestrings]

Sadly, I knew this JW.  I just meant he and others (Commanda, Brian Smith, others) have posted frequency counting circuits here used to measure the rotor speed of an alternator.  A search on this topic would bring up examples for the Joe I'm sure.

[JW]

Thank you kitestrings,

When you guys search for this don't use the search box at the top of the page, use the Google search your site at the bottom of the home page.

JW

[doubledipsoon]

So how does a  "RPM sensing circuit" translate into a usable device that can be used in conjunction with a control panel to excite an alternator's field windings at a usable wind speed? Take it slow- I'm no electrical engineer, but I did put my whole solar/wind system together by myself.

[TechAdmin]

when I push, "insert image" under attachments, on this site, it doesn't go through (Technology!)

I need further explanation on this, because "doesn't go through" is impossible to understand
I would, however, recommend you to have a good read here https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146470.0.html (not the first post, the following posts that explain how the system got simplified and changed over the years).
The "insert image" for example, has to be pressed *after* you select the image itself from your pc by hitting the choose file button. The "insert image" button will work even without uploading the attachment due to the way I set the javascript to work, so it can't be that button not working, but still no idea what you're on about.
Small note... If your images are *really* heavy you may get a white page while trying to post, which simply means the image(s) you were trying to post were too heavy and crashed the server - the solution in this particular case is to reduce your image *size* (not dimension! They can be 10000*10000 for all the server cares, but they can't be like 10MB each).
Thanks in advance for your help!
@everyone else, sorry for interrupting, you may get back on topic

[doubledipsoon]

TechAdmin, I hate to break this to ya, but not only did I reduce the size of the photo, but I did choose the image 1st, and then clicked on "insert image"- see, this is why I think the whole digital age is a huge hassle, you know like trying to keep up with funding your Paypal account (they keep changing how to do it), or suddenly having your amazon account frozen, because you happened to use a library's computer, or  suddenly not being able to send an image to a fieldlines friend because it just doesn't %^#$@*& work anymore...hey, like that famous phase in "Fast Food Nation" , "it's not a war between right and wrong anymore, it's the machine that's taken over"...whoooops, did I say all that?

[JW]

Take it easy you guys'

Let me get involved here, use the the opportunity to set anything to to a moderation report.

PM me I have some experience dealing with this type thing.

Not a big deal, really.

I have ;alot to say about this... but there is no need to start flame war over this...

[JW]

you know like trying to keep up with funding your Paypal account (they keep changing how to do it), or suddenly having your amazon account frozen, because you happened to use a library's computer, or  suddenly not being able to send- doubledipsoon

 doubledipsoon, you are now banned until I feel differently.

JW

[TechAdmin]

TechAdmin, I hate to break this to ya, but not only did I reduce the size of the photo, but I did choose the image 1st, and then clicked on "insert image"- see, this is why I think the whole digital age is a huge hassle, you know like trying to keep up with funding your Paypal account (they keep changing how to do it), or suddenly having your amazon account frozen, because you happened to use a library's computer, or  suddenly not being able to send an image to a fieldlines friend because it just doesn't %^#$@*& work anymore...hey, like that famous phase in "Fast Food Nation" , "it's not a war between right and wrong anymore, it's the machine that's taken over"...whoooops, did I say all that?

I don't really care about the other problems in life I'm the one responsible for the site to be in fully operational condition, and to quote you a little I hate to break it down to you but your explanation explained close to zero about what happened :/
Ok, the procedure you followed *seems* to be correct, but then? White page? Frozen page (and at which point)? Crashed browser (close to impossible but heh)? Posted without attachment? Posted with attachment and deleted later? Help me to help you, pretty please You produced no errors whatsoever in the logs.

@JW I'm fairly sure he meant that as a general statement, not towards me, you might want to "feel" to unban him quickly

[kitestrings]

Sorry to see this veered off track...

For any insight it might provide, the OP sent me his pics via an independent email exchange.  I saved one, without resizing, and posted it earlier (12:19 10:35) without issue.

If/when the original topic should resume, I'd planned to ask:

What became of the turbine(s) & hardware that you bought from me J?  IIRC you bought lock-stock-barrel the two turbines that we had.  I think one you had rebuilt by a friend here in VT.  There was only the one controller, but at least two spare, working PC boards.  Just seems way simpler to use the proven controller if possible.  The rectifier, metering & current protection would all be comparatively less complicated to replicate, but the control board might be a challenge to build from scratch and have work without some trial and error, and finesse.

[TechAdmin]

Sorry to see this veered off track...

For any insight it might provide, the OP sent me his pics via an independent email exchange.  I saved one, without resizing, and posted it earlier (12:19 10:35) without issue.

Thank you! Server hiccups may happen every once in a while, especially nowadays that the site is quite busy Do let me know regardless.

If/when the original topic should resume

By all means please go ahead, I'm just following up on site problems if there's any You're all way more knowledgeable than me about turbines.

[Bruce S]

-----Moderator Mode-----

Double;
I've removed the ban,
When you have a spare second please try the uploading of pics. IF you get an error , click on that notify admin button on the lower left if you're using a Windows based computer. This will let US know you're having issues. Since we're located in different time/day Zones; we can likely help pretty fast.
We just need to know the message(s) your getting when you try.

We (those watching in the background) , would like to make sure everything is operating correctly and as smoothly as HUmanly possible .

Thanks for understanding.

-------- End Moderator Mode-------

Bruce S