Author Topic: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case  (Read 3789 times)

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SparWeb

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Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« on: January 20, 2020, 11:28:32 PM »
I have been working in the background on the details of WindBuffetJR's troublesome wind turbine.  This is his thread where he seeks help in troubleshooting, and our members pitch in to recommend MPPT corrections that have finally started to help get something out of the machine. 

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,149890.0.html

For WBJr, there's still a long way to go to get any acceptable performance from his turbine.  There has been some progress after changing the MPPT curve, but it seems to offer only small improvements.  Here is a summary of what WindBuffetJR has reported to us so far:

10,000ft site altitude in Colorado
Turbine custom-built
Initially 8' blades


Also, in his own words after replacing the blades:
Quote
-48V 680AH FLA battery bank (will increase AH when these batteries fail), 4,000 watt AC clipper from Midnite and a Midnite Classic 200.
-Stator is 15 coils of 15 gauge wire. 72 turns per coil. 40 - N42 2" x 1" x .5" magnets
-Resistance of each phase was ~1.7-1.8 OHM
-Transmission wire is 80' of 6 gauge wire
-Stator made 18V at 100RPM.
-9.2' diamater rotor - chinese blades

My anemometer was mounted on my porch for 3 years and this year I moved it to ~30' up my turbine tower. Highest wind speed I have seen with it on the tower was ~30mph. Highest I saw when it was on the porch was ~40mph. I currently have more turbulence than I would like and more than I expected in that spot. I do plan on moving the tower and/or installing a new taller tower at some point so things should only improve.

Quote
...the builder told me over and over again this was a low wind turbine...

And a few more things based on some e-mail discussions with WindBuffetJR:
  • He monitors the machine remotely using software from Midnite
  • The 48V battery bank was established to suit the solar array he has also installed.
  • Any suggestions to change the battery bank imply that the solar array needs to be reconnected.
  • The air density at 10,000 feet leaves only 76% of the normal air density from sea level.
I'm going to post some results from my work over the weekend on this problem.  I have taken a shot at both sides of his system:
  • What are the blades doing? 
  • What is the alternator doing?
It's showing me a pretty obvious mismatch between blades and alternator, but before going too far with it, I think we can check a few facts and calculations.
More to come...
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SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2020, 11:38:21 PM »
What we know of the prop so far is that it seems to be a high-TSR unit, fiberglass, with a very small chord.  WindBuffetJR doesn't have specific measurements but estimated that the tips are only about 2" chord and the root is maybe 5" or 6".  That's not a lot, making for a very low "solidity" which is just another word for "ratio of blade surface area divided by swept area".  This and the photos that he took of the blades showing not much twist, leads me to think they are like the chart below.  The chart is borrowed from Hugh Piggott's website www.scoraigwind.org and given just a little colour formatting by me.

12569-0

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SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2020, 11:57:04 PM »
Using what we can see of the blade planform as a guide in the photos, the shape says in many ways that it's a high-TSR blade.  Maybe TSR=8 is a guess on the high side, but photos of the blades could not convince me that it's much lower than 7.






From there, we only need a little guessing about the airfoil (I maintain that the airfoil doesn't matter very much, but hopefully we don't get derailed by that discussion) to figure out roughly how it will behave in the wind.  This is my estimate of the blade performance:


TechAdmin - fixed attachment issue
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 10:58:28 AM by TechAdmin »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2020, 02:15:33 AM »
So taking a look around at what I find so far, I have:

@ 40kph the RPM for peak CP is 650 RPM.
40 kph = 11.1 m/s
650RPM = 68 rev radians/sec
Diameter / 2 = 9 feet / 2 = 4.5 feet = 1.37 m

TSR = (R) * (rev) / (wind) = 1.37 * 68 / 11.1 = 8.4       Which is a little higher than the TSR=8 that I was using for reference above, but I won't correct it for now because both are still estimates.

There are several thing I'm seeing in the plots.  First, the optimal speeds are slammed way to the right.  Gotta run the blades very fast to get power.
The next thing to notice is that for all but the lightest wind, the power curve goes to ZERO before 0 RPM.  That's tough.  What's happening seems to be that the blade is stalled in all but the lightest wind speeds.  So if it happens that the hub and generator have a bit of friction to overcome, and it won't start turning until 20 KPH wind, then I will NEVER start turning, because at 30 kph, the stall is deep enough they need to be cranked up to 200 RPM for the rotation to be self-sustaining.

I have never run my blade performance calculations out to high TSR's with skinny blades like this.  If there's any reality check that points to BS in what I have got so far, I hope folks can speak up now and get it straightened out. 

I think I have found the reason that WindBuffetJR's turbine can sit perfectly still in a stiff breeze, but I usually find that discussions here can shine some light on things I've missed.

Thanks in advance.

(Edited to correct the units of radians)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 07:58:24 PM by SparWeb »
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kitestrings

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2020, 01:46:11 PM »
Spar,

I've followed most of what you are doing here. You lost me on a couple calc's -

Wouldn't 650 rpm be 10.8 rps?

I would have said: TSR = rpm * pi * D / 60 / V = 650 * 3.14 * 2.74 / 60 / 11.1 = 8.4; same number as you, but I'm not sure how you got there.  Sorry.  I'll have to read thru again when I get home.

~ks

SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2020, 07:56:52 PM »
You're right.
I meant radians per second. 
Your calculation also contains the conversion to radians so that's why it comes out the same.
I've put the correction into the post, but wanted to thank you for catching that, too.

My internet connection went on the fritz last night (the joys of living in the country) so I didn't get to post a few more details of how I made those graphs.  I'll try to round it out tonight.
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MattM

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2020, 08:43:52 PM »
When you factor in the losses for altitude wouldn't that be the most significant to affect all the numbers?  If wind force at 10,000 feet elevation is only 76% compared to sea level, that is starting with one hand tied behind the back already.  And wind force rises exponentially and they already are down a significant starting point.

Late edit: Even if you geared up the generator to match sea level generation at 20 mph winds, by the time you jump to 30 mph the gearing did practically nothing to match at the new speed.  The force available just is not there.  You would need to gear for an optimal speed and pretty well resign the fact that your generation curve is never going to match curves created at sea level.  Anything outside of that optimal wind force will be significantly generating at a lower potential due to the inherent conditions of the altitude.


Air density is not exactly the same as atmospheric pressure, but there is some congruence.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 12:25:48 AM by MattM »

SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2020, 11:03:36 PM »
Yup, there's a big penalty to pay for high altitude. 
You can take some comfort that forces are reduced on the tower. 
That comfort goes stale when you also notice that the furling tail needs those forces to work, too.  So the force that keeps it facing the wind is also reduced, making the two effects cancel out.

What I wanted to add to the stuff I posted before is where the curves come from.  Making the graphs is really just number-crunching for the computer, thankfully, so here is the general method. 
It's called Blade Element Analysis.  There's a simplified form that you can cram onto one page of paper if you just want one design point.  The key to simplified BEA is to do the calculations at the 3/4 radius point on the rotor, and extrapolate the rest.  It works surprisingly accurately, and you can use it for aircraft propellors just as well if you want.

Start with the basic geometry
Radius = 4.5 feet
3/4 Radius = 3.4 feet
chord varies between 5 inches at the root and 2 at the tip
chord at the 3/4 radius = 3.0 inches

The airfoil could be anything so just as a guess:
slope of the lift curve = 0.090 1/degree
angle of zero lift = -2 degrees
incidence of blade twist = 2 degrees

Now let's suppose the wind is 30 kph, and it's turning at 500 RPM.
This is a point on the graph above so you can check my work.
The tip speed ratio is 8.6

500 RPM = 52.4 radian/sec
30 kph = 27.3 ft/sec

To get the angle of attack of the blade, you use this:
AoA = arctan (1/TSR) = arctan (1/8.6) = arctan (0.12) = 6.6 degrees
But we want it at the 3/4 radius point, which is different:
AoA = arctan [1/(TSR*3/4)] = arctan [1/8.6*3/4)] = arctan (0.155) = 8.8 degrees

Here comes the tricky part.  This doesn't often come up in discussions of building and testing, but there's an "inflow factor" that also has to be considered to do this right.   Good flow through a wind turbine reduces the wind exiting down to 33% of the incoming wind.  The wind speed passing the disk is then 67% of the free wind speed. This factor changes the angle of attack of the blades.  To include this angle in the angle of attack:

AoA = arctan [1/TSR*3/4*(1+0.33)/2] = arctan (1/8.6*3/4*0.67) = arctan (0.060) = 5.9 degrees

This gets the coefficents of lift and drag at the point 3/4 out the radius:

CL = 0.090 1/degree * (5.9 + 2.0 - 2.0) = 0.54
CD = 0.020 + (5.9 + 2.0 - 2.0)^2 / 2.1 = 0.025

With these coefficients we can find the forces acting at this point on the radius:

We also need the density of air now.  This is where the altitude is a penalty:
rho, sea level = 0.002378 slug / cubic foot
rho, 10,000 ft = 0.001800 slug / cubic foot

The local airspeed at this point on the radius is

V,local,3/4 = 3.4 feet * 52.4 radian/sec = 178 ft/sec

dL = (0.001800 slug / cubic foot) / 2 * (178 ft/sec)^2 * (3.4 ft) * (0.54)
dL = 17 pounds

dD = (0.001800 slug / cubic foot) / 2 * (178 ft/sec)^2 * (3.4 ft) * (0.025)
dD = 0.8 pounds


Each of these forces acts ALMOST at right angle to the direction the blade is moving, but not quite.  The tiny remaining angles give the lift the ability to create useful torque, while the drag mostly resists it.

Torque, lift = 3 blades * dL * R * 0.75 * sin(AoA) = 3 * 17 Lb * 3.4 ft * sin(5.9deg) = 208 Lb*in
Torque, drag = 3 blades * dD * R * 0.75 * cos(AoA) = 3 * 0.8 Lb * 3.4 ft * cos(5.9deg) = 96 Lb*in

Net Torque = 208 - 96 = 112 Lb*in

Power = Torque * speed = 112 Lb*in * 52.4 radian/sec = 664 Watt

Which is basically how any of the points on the curves above are calculated.

I grant that I skipped a lot of info about the inflow factor.  It's related to the coefficient of power Cp and the factor used for calculation is Cp=0.59.
The reason I picked the point that I did for this calculation is that it's the point of max Cp on the curves above, so that it would make this part of the calculations straightforward.  If I was to work on a different point on the graph, less or more RPM, then I'd need to figure out the effect on Cp and then change the inflow factor.  That causes you to dig in to the Lift/Drag ratio of the airfoil which, in this case, peaks at 6 degrees.
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wbuffetjr1

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2020, 08:18:42 AM »
 SparWeb - I can't say thank you enough for all the thought put into this. That is a TON of information!


Maybe this is a good spot for me to pose this question.  Is this an environment where 5 blades would be better than 3??


One main lesson here is this. DO NOT trust these axial flux turbine builders on YouTube. They DO NOT know what they are doing!! Find someone reputable.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 08:35:10 AM by wbuffetjr1 »

MattM

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 02:06:23 PM »
Five blades created equal to the three blades will always be lower RPMs.  They will be more responsive as the conditions shift, but they will never have the same tip speed.  And from what I've been reading in the past, it sounds like you need a bigger tail on the 5-blade design over the 3-blade, due to the effects of the greater mass.

MagnetJuice

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 03:17:18 PM »
SparWeb, thanks for doing this analysis and calculations, it is very useful.

The alternator that Chad has is a nice one. As I said before, it is capable of producing 1800 watts if it is fitted with the right blades and tail.

I hope that at the end, the proper size blades and tail could be recommended so that he end up with a nice working turbine.

Ed
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SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 11:59:17 PM »
WbuffetJr:
That is one of the things I've been building up to:   An emphatic "yes" it would probably be helpful to use 3, 4 or maybe even 5 blades, shaped for a very low TSR.
To many this will be counter-intuitive. 

Not throwing you under a bus Matt, but what I want to show everyone is how high-TSR blades can be useless on a low-speed alternator. 
Further, when you have a problem with getting blades to start-up, you want to change to a lower TSR, not a higher one.
You can show that high-TSR blades can be more efficient and generate more power per foot of diameter, but that only happens if they start turning.  Chad is still waiting for them to go around!
Your point about having more blades then needing a bigger tail is a good one.

I'm going to add some things about the alternator next.  We have some measurements from Chad so I think I can extrapolate a rough power curve for it.
Putting that beside the power curve for the blades and the current problems become obvious.
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MattM

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2020, 03:27:40 AM »
I didn't really contradict you, though.  I did stipulate more blades make it more responsive to wind changes.  And I started out with the caveat 'blades created equal' to try to clarify what I was saying.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2020, 05:53:38 AM »
The matching in between rotor and generator is explained in chapter 8 of my public report KD 35. To check the matching, you need a measured Pmech-n curve of the generator for the correct load and the optimum cubic line of the rotor. The optimum cubic line of the rotor is given by formula 8.1 of KD 35. But to find this optimum cubic line, you need to know the design tip speed ratio of the rotor and therefore the rotor must have been designed according to the aerodynamic theory (which is also given in KD 35).

SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2020, 02:00:06 AM »
Hi,
I was going to post more about this tonight but I spent my evening taking another old motor apart instead  :D
I do want to add to the topic, just easily distracted I guess.
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bigrockcandymountain

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2020, 08:20:01 AM »
I am watching and learning this post at this point.  We are beyond my expertise level. 

My guess would be the conclusion will be lower tsr blades with a larger chord.  Like about 4" tips. Possibly 4 or 5 blades. 

One thing i will add here from personal experience.  When designing blades, it is better to err on the side of lower than optimal designed tsr.  A design tsr 4 blade will run at tsr 8 with a slight loss of efficiency.  A design tsr 8 blade will NOT run at tsr 4 without being stalled and the output falling off dramatically.  A quick look at a chart with angle of attack vs lift will confirm hiw this works. 

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2020, 04:20:13 PM »
I am watching and learning this post at this point.  We are beyond my expertise level. 

My guess would be the conclusion will be lower tsr blades with a larger chord.  Like about 4" tips. Possibly 4 or 5 blades. 

One thing i will add here from personal experience.  When designing blades, it is better to err on the side of lower than optimal designed tsr.  A design tsr 4 blade will run at tsr 8 with a slight loss of efficiency.

This is certainly not true. The unloaded tip speed ratio is about a factor 8/5 of the design tip speed ratio. So the unloaded tip speed ratio of a rotor with a design tip speed ratio of 4 is about 6.4 and so it will even not reach a tip speed ratio of 8. The shape of the Cp-lambda curve is about a parabola around the optimum tip speed ratio (see report KD 35 figure 6.7 which gives the Cp-lambda curve for a rotor with a design tip speed ratio of 5 and a maximum Cp of 0.4). If this rotor runs at a real tip speed ratio of 4 or 6, the Cp is 0.35. If it runs at a real tip speed ratio of 3 it is 0.21 and at 7 it is 0.2. So the reduction of the Cp is rather symmetric around the design tip speed ratio.

If you look at the Cq-lambda curve as given in figure 6.8 of KD 35, you see that the Cq value is highest at about a tip speed ratio of 4. So if the load has a too high torque level, this torque can be supplied by a somewhat lower tip speed ratio than the optimum tip speed ratio but below a tip speed ratio of 4, the Cq value is decreasing strongly. The estimated Cp-lambda and Cq-lambda curves as given in KD 35 are in good accordance with measurements performed in the wind tunnel (see KD 616). Correct matching is a rather critical procedure; the real lambda caused by the generator load should be rather close to the design tip speed ratio to get an acceptable Cp.

SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2020, 08:21:26 PM »
Quote
So the reduction of the Cp is rather symmetric around the design tip speed ratio.

This part I do agree with.  I also believe the point made by BRCM is that running a TSR=5 blade at TSR of 3 will have a more detrimental effect than running it at TSR 7.  The effect doesn't change arithmetically (it's not "minus 2" less either way). It's probably more logarithmic, so comparisons between TSR=2.5 and 5 cause a doubling but so does comparisons between TSR=5 and 10, if you get my meaning.

But everyone agrees that turning either faster or slower than the design TSR will not be optimal.

The thing I'm most concerned about is that in this kind of mis-match, the fast blades don't get enough torque to get started.  Adriaan's report is useful here (I hope you don't mind me borrowing this figure) because it provides a diagram of the angles that are causing the problem:



This is handy because we can see that all of the oncoming wind just creates drag.  There's barely any angle of attack - it could be a "barn door" - producing very little lift, if any.  There will be so little torque that it's unlikely that the blade will start turning if the whole blade has this angle.  So obviously this is helped when the blade is twisted.  At the root, the twist of the blades puts the airfoil at a more advantageous angle. 



Admittedly, the angle of attack (alpha) is still very high, about 60 degrees, but there certainly is some lift possible in this condition.
So this is where it becomes a fact that blades with lots of twist, associated with low TSR, are able to start up more readily, than blades with high TSR.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2020, 05:34:19 AM »
My public report KD 35 gives the formulas to find the optimum chord and blade angles for the design tip speed ratio. During starting, the situation is completely different and the angles of attack are very large, so the airfoil is stalling over the whole blade length. The contribution of each blade section to the starting torque coefficient depends on the blade angle beta, the chord c and the local radius r. It is rather simple to derive a formula for the starting torque coefficient if the blade isn't rotating and this is done in KD 35. Formula 6.12 out of KD 35 gives the calculation of the starting torque coefficient for a blade with a constant chord and blade angle. This formula can also be used for a constant chord and a linear twist if the average blade angle is used. If the blade is tapered and twisted, it has to be divided into several blade sections and the contribution of each blade section to the total starting torque coefficient can be determined with formula 6.12 if the average chord and the average blade angle are taken for each blade section.

However, if the blade is rotating slowly, you get a certain blade speed and this changes the angle phi and so the angle of attack alpha. For this situation, it is not only the lift L which contributes to the torque but the drag D has a negative influence. In my public report KD 97, I have tried to find out what happens if the rotor is rotating slowly. I have simplified the situation by assuming that the wind turbine is not yet taking energy out of the wind and so the wind speed in the rotor plane is equal to V (and not 2/3 V as for the optimum tip speed ratio). Formula 9 out of KD 97 gives the contribution of a certain blade section to the torque coefficient at low tip speed ratios. This formula can also be used for a tapered blade with a blade angle which is increasing at decreasing radius if the average chord and the average blade angle of the blade section is used. The final result of the calculations given in KD 97, is that the Cq value is rising directly if the tip speed ratio increases from zero up to somewhat higher than zero, at least this was the result for a 7.14 % cambered airfoil.

KD 97 originally been written in 2002 has just been reviewed. Some typing errors have been removed and some references have been changed to more recent KD-reports.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 04:37:54 PM by Adriaan Kragten »

SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2020, 06:05:32 AM »
All good info Adriaan, thanks.

The point I really want to focus on is the choice of design point and matching with the alternator.  This ultimately leads to the detailed calculations you've posted, but I want to keep my head above water a little longer.  I'm sure this looks like a deep dive into the numbers (well yeah I guess it is) but what I mean is that I am doing a big picture match-up comparison first.  No point analyzing a blade in detail if it's one you don't want to use.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also said I wanted to look at the alternator that Chad's dealing with.
Here's the basic measurements as he told me (again, but repeated here for convenience):

-48V 680AH FLA battery bank (will increase AH when these batteries fail), 4,000 watt AC clipper from Midnite and a Midnite Classic 200.
-Stator is 15 coils of 15 gauge wire. 72 turns per coil. 40 - N42 2" x 1" x .5" magnets
-Resistance of each phase was ~1.7-1.8 OHM
-Stator made 18V at 100RPM.

This raised a red-flag to me quickly.  To charge a 48V battery bank will need hundreds of RPM to get to cut-in.  A quick calc:

V_battery = 54V
V_diode = 1V
V_cutin = V_battery + V_diode = 55V (dc)
V_Line = V_cutin * [ square-root 2 ] = 39.6 VAC

Cutin Speed = 39.6 VAC * 100 RPM / 18 VAC = 220RPM

That's pretty fast for 9' blades.

Here's my attempt to estimate the power curve of the generator.  I probably don't have perfect assumptions, so if anyone catches any obvious mistakes, please say so.
Starting with the open-circuit voltage and cut-in:

Resistance per line: 1.75 ohm

The open-circuit voltage rises linearly at 18Vac/100RPM

At 300 RPM:
V_open = 3 * 18 = 54VAC
current = (V_open - V_line) / R_line = (54VAC - 39.6 VAC) / 1.75 ohm = 8.2 Amp
Output Power = 39.6 VAC * 8.2 A = 444 W

At 400 RPM:
V_open = 4 * 18 = 72VAC
current = (V_open - V_line) / R_line = (72VAC - 39.6 VAC) / 1.75 ohm = 18.5 Amp
Output Power = 39.6 VAC * 18.5 A = 1333 W

At 500 RPM:
V_open = 5 * 18 = 90VAC
current = (V_open - V_line) / R_line = (90VAC - 39.6 VAC) / 1.75 ohm = 28.8 Amp
Output Power = 39.6 VAC * 18.5 A = 2592 W


We can also work out the power lost to heat:

At 300 RPM:
R = 1.75 ohm
Current = 5.4 A
Power = I^2 * R = (8.2)^2 * (1.75 ohm) = 119 W

At 400 RPM:
R = 1.75 ohm
Current = 18.5 A
Power = I^2 * R = (18.5)^2 * (1.75 ohm) = 600 W

At 500 RPM:
R = 1.75 ohm
Current = 28.8 A
Power = I^2 * R = (28.8 )^2 * (1.75 ohm) = 1452 W


I also want to factor some resistance in the hub:

Torque = 1 pound * 6 inches = 6 Lb-in
Power = 6 Lb-in * 300 RPM / 85.7 = 21 Watt
Power = 6 Lb-in * 400 RPM / 85.7 = 28 Watt
Power = 6 Lb-in * 500 RPM / 85.7 = 36 Watt


Now add up the power needed to drive this:

RPM   Out                 Input
220   0           14+0+0                     14   W
300   444        21+119+444=         584  W
400   1333       28+600+1333=     1961 W
500   2592       36+1452+2592=   4079 W

So while it's nice to make a calculation that gives the impression his generator can produce 2.5 kW, we are also seeing that it takes over 4 kW of shaft power to do it.
The kicker is really the speed where all this happens.  It's still high but not as high as the range the blades want to run at.
In fact, there's a very poor overlap over these curves.  When I come back I want to put these on the same graph because it visually shows at a glance that these parts don't match.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 05:42:19 PM by SparWeb »
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MattM

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2020, 04:44:40 PM »
So if he can gear it up, though, the top end being limited probably isn't a problem but actually a benefit as it will be harder to run too much power through it.  The downside to gearing is the obvious added aspects of complexity and expense, plus it taking more wind to start up from a dead stop.  The target of a 9' windmill might also be impractical.  If my formula is put into excel correctly he would need a Cp of between .25 and .3 combined with a 50 mph wind to get anywhere near 3 kW.  With a Cp of .45 he could get there at 4 kW in a 50 mph wind.  So I'm thinking you'd be looking at TSR more like 5.5 to 6 in a two bladed rig.  Or go with more blades, lower the Cp target, and utilize gearing with optimization for the site with a way to shut it down if conditions get too strong.  An increase in blades will lower Cp which also means a considerably lower TSR, but it may make it easier to then control it in poor conditions.  At that altitude the higher wind speeds during storms aren't anything near as powerful as you'd find for the same speeds near sea level, but we can't ever dismiss the risk.

A wind survey of the site could help him target the ideal design to run the generator to make it worthwhile.

mab

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2020, 05:03:45 PM »
at the risk of showing my ignorance of the technicalities of wind turbines (though I'm reading this thread with great interest), I was wondering if this prop / generator could be made to work well with a variable pitch hub? That could overcome the starting torque issue and keep them flying at an angle of attack they like.

As to engineering a variable pitch hub - All I know is that it would be beyond my ability - especially if it needs to hold together at >500rpm.

SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2020, 01:25:24 AM »
Two very interesting options.

You can find examples of both on Fieldlines from users who have ignored the naysayers and tried it strictly for the desire to do it. 
Chris Olson probably has the best record with gearing props.
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,144577.0.html

Midwoud came up with a pitch control system not based on angular momentum, when most variable-pitch props do.
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,145925.375.html
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SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2020, 02:29:05 AM »
Using the work I showed last night, a series of power points can be plotted on a graph.
By using the same graph that was used for the rotor blades, a comparison becomes obvious:

RPM   INPUT   OUTPUT

50     4          0
100   7         0
150   11       0
200   14       0
250   173      139
300   584      444
350   1180    842
400   1961    1333
450   2928    1916
500   4079    2592



The generator that Chad is using really only wants to operate between 250 and 450 RPM.  Well, the blades are only just getting started at that speed range.  Anywhere you look, the blades will be "stalled".

To visualize this, think back to that blade cross-section that I borrowed from Adriaan before.
With the wind coming face-on to the flat side of the blade, it's like a wing that is very deeply stalled.
Tip the leading edge down, and it comes a little less stalled.
On the other hand, if you picture the wind not coming straight from the bottom, but more toward the leading edge of the airfoil, then it may not be stalled and it can work just like a wing does and generate a useful amount of lift.  Although some lift can be generated by a stalled wing or rotor blade, it also creates a huge amount of drag at the same time.  The drag prevents the rotor from turning.

So is there any overlap of the curves?  Just barely.  There is some at 20-30 kph (15-20 mph) where the blades may actually be able to sustain some turning against the resistance of the generator, small as it is.
But if you'll notice at the same time, this all happens between 150 and 200 RPM. 

That's below cut-in speed.
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SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2020, 02:48:27 AM »
So I hope this has shed some light on both problems WBuffetJR has been seeing:
- Blades barely even turn in a good wind
- Turning in a strong wind, rarely makes any power.

What can be done?

At first, it was believed that his MPPT controller could be used to adjust the turbine's power curve to harvest more power.  This didn't seem to pay off.  The program may not have the flexibility to adjust the operating speed of the turbine that far.  Perhaps this work will shed light on some more things that can be tried with the Classic MPPT that might help.

Aside:  When WBuffetJR first asked for help, there were 8' diameter blades on his turbine.  Later, he changed them for 9' blades from the same manufacturer.  I thought this would help, at the time, but it didn't.  Smaller blades will turn faster for the same TSR and loading.  The change to 9' blades should have made their operating speed lower, closer to the generator's speed range.  It is possible that the replacement blades have higher TSR and less twist than the 8' blades he removed.

My opinion is that a set of blades made for TSR ~ 3 or 4 are in order.  I don't think you can buy such things off e-bay.  Although, if anyone can find a set of TSR=4 blades on e-bay, I'd like to see for myself.

One reason you don't see this often is because of the exaggerated twist.  They have much broader chord, and are heavier, too.  It's harder to make.  One of the reasons my blades are so swoopy is because I cut them for TSR 5.  Here, I'm suggesting we need even more to help WBuffetJR's turbine.
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MattM

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2020, 07:51:41 AM »
What about a simple compromise?  He needs blades that will start easier, but also he will want blades to get to a high TSR.  The image I am attaching is simple sheet metal blades I experimented with that have potential to be screwed on to an existing prop.  It would be a simple add on instead of a whole new set of props.  The attachment point would be below the green 'wind' label.

It is simple and cheap.  And because they are near the root of the blade there is little drag when the rotors gets going at a high rate of speed.  You can use sheet metal you have laying around to do it, but the best sheet metal for this would be stainless steel as it holds tension better than sheet steel and doesn't really weather.  I'd start with something small, like a six by six piece of metal and make the folds.  A manual bar former can be picked up at tool shops for $20.00* and they have two sizes for folds, which would make it easy to do the hemmed leading edge.  I'm a fan of safe leading edges.

* Amazon has the Crest Wiss 18" Folding Tool for $16.99
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 11:16:08 AM by MattM »

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2020, 11:11:30 AM »
All good info Adriaan, thanks.


-Stator made 18V at 100RPM.

This raised a red-flag to me quickly.  To charge a 48V battery bank will need hundreds of RPM to get to cut-in.  A quick calc:

V_battery = 54V
V_diode = 1V
V_cutin = V_battery + V_diode = 55V (dc)
V_Line = V_cutin * [ square-root 2 ] = 39.6 VAC

Cutin Speed = 39.6 VAC * 100 RPM / 18 VAC = 220RPM



I doubt this calculation, at least if the given voltage at 100 rpm is the DC voltage after the rectifier. The open DC voltage is proportional to the rotational speed. So if the open DC voltage is 18 V at 100 rpm and if it is assumed that the battery voltage including the voltage drop over the rectifier diodes is 55 V, it means that the required rotational speed for an open DC voltage of 55 V is 100 * 55 / 18 = 305.6 rpm.

If the given voltage is the AC voltage in between two of the three wires of a winding which is connected in star, the AC phase voltage in between the star point and a wire end is a factor square root of 3 lower and so 10.39 V at 100 rpm. If the 3-phase winding is rectified in star, the DC voltage is a factor 2.339 higher (see KD 340 formula 13) and so 24.3 V at 100 rpm (if the voltage drop over the rectifier is neglected). So for a voltage of 55 V you need a rotational speed of 100 * 55 / 24.3 = 226.3 rpm. This is only a little higher than what you have calculated. I think that the difference is caused by the fact that you have neglected the factor 0.955 out of formula 13. The relation in between the DC voltage and the AC phase voltage including the voltage drop over the rectifier, is given by formula 14 of KD 340.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2020, 12:06:04 PM »
I have determined the specific formula for the optimum cubic line. The general formula is given as formula 8.1 of KD 35. The air density rho is normally 1.2 kg/m^3 at 20° C at sea level. So if the density is reduced by 76 % because of the height, it is 0.912 kg/m^3. Assume Cp = 0.4. D = 8.2' = 2.5 m so R = 1.25 m. Assume lambda = 8. Substitution of these values in formula 8.1 of KD 35 gives that:

P = 0.00003138 n^3     (W)

With this formula it is easy to draw the optimum cubic line in the same graph as the Pmech-n curve of the generator for a 48 V battery load. If there is a big distance in between both lines for moderate wind speeds, the matching is bad. If the Pmech-n curve of the generator is lying far left from the optimum cubic line, the matching can be improved by choosing a higher battery voltage. If the Pmech-n curve of the generator is lying far to the right side of the optimum cubic line, the matching can be improved by choosing a lower battery voltage (see KD 78 for measured curves for different voltages).

This matching story has nothing to do with the starting behaviour. Even if the matching would be perfect, the wind turbine will produce no power at low wind speeds if it hasn't started because of a too high sticking torque of the generator or because of a too low starting torque coefficient of the rotor.

MagnetJuice

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2020, 08:51:39 PM »
I think that the 18V at 100 RPM should be defined with a little more precision before the final calculations are made.

Chad said:

"I also tested the stator and I THINK I got some bad news. The stator made 18V at 100RPM. I checked each leg of the stator and they were all equal."

How did he measured this voltage? He never said how, so I assume that it was 18 AC volts between two phases.

18 volts RMS multiplied by 1.73 gives 31 volts out of the three phases.
31 volts RMS multiplied by 1.41 converts that to 43 peak volts (for DC)

43 volts DC at 100 RPM is what I come up with. Is this correct?

Ed
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 09:31:01 PM by MagnetJuice »
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SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2020, 11:57:39 PM »
Yes, I believe he was measuring Line-to-Line AC with star point phases connected (and not accessible up the tower).

Come to think of it, we didn't ask what kind of multimeter he used, did we?
Cheap multimeters can only make sense of AC that is close to 60 Hz, and I had one that certainly led me astray on the low-frequency wild AC from my turbine before I went to a true RMS meter.
We can only trust WBuffetJR's measurements unless he confirms he might not have a reliable meter, or (not the preferred suggestion) can go back to the WT's site and test again.
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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2020, 07:11:56 AM »
We checked it right at the stator on the phase wires. Then checked it again at the clipper on the phase wires. Meter was set to AC volts. Meter is a Klein CL 800.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2020, 11:19:40 AM »
I think that the 18V at 100 RPM should be defined with a little more precision before the final calculations are made.


18 volts RMS multiplied by 1.73 gives 31 volts out of the three phases.
31 volts RMS multiplied by 1.41 converts that to 43 peak volts (for DC)

43 volts DC at 100 RPM is what I come up with. Is this correct?

Ed

The formulas given in KD 340 to transform the AC voltage into the DC voltage are valid for the AC phase voltage which is the AC voltage over one phase. The DC voltage depends on how the winding is connected and rectified. Normally the winding is connected in star and the star point is hidden somewhere at the coil heads so you can't measure the voltage in between the star point and one phase end. So normally three wires are coming out of the generator and each wire corresponds to the end of a certain phase. If you measure the AC voltage in between two of these wires, you don't measure the phase voltage but a voltage which is a factor square root of 3 higher than the phase voltage. So to find the phase voltage, the measured voltage has to be divided by a factor square root of 3.

If you know the AC phase voltage, you should use formula 14 of KD 340 to find the DC voltage for star rectification. In this formula you see that you have to multiply again by the square root of 3 and also by the square root of 2 but there is also a factor 0.955. Without the factor 0.955, you get the peak of the pulsation on the DC voltage. The factor 0.955 is needed to find the average DC voltage. The term 1.4 is for the voltage drop over two silicon diodes of the rectifier bridge. This voltage drop is relatively low at a high battery voltage but can't be neglected for a 12 V battery. There are modern Schotky diodes which have a lower voltage drop.

So if 18 V is the AC voltage in between two phases at 100 rpm, I find that the DC voltage = 18 / 1.7321 * 1.7321 * 1.4142 * 0.955 - 1.4 = 22.91 V DC at 100 rpm. If 18 V is the AC phase voltage at 100 rpm, I find that the DC voltage = 18 * 1.7321 * 1.4142 * 0.955 - 1.4 = 40.71 V at 100 rpm.

The voltage drop of 1.4 V is only that high for a reasonable current. If you measure the open voltage with a modern digital volt meter, the measuring current is very low and then the voltage drop will be much less than 1.4 V.

Today I have written a new note about the difference in starting torque coefficient for a rotor with constant chord blades and a rotor with tapered and twisted blades. This note is given in a separate post.

SparWeb

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Re: Prop-to-Alternator Mis-Match, an Extreme Case
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2020, 06:20:27 PM »
Thanks WBuffetJR1,
That's a good choice of meter.

So I think MJ was asking if you were measuring between LINE and NEUTRAL, or Line to Line.  He just wanted to check just in case.   
I'll borrow a figure from AllAboutCircuits.com to illustrate:



In that example, measuring L-N would give you 120V, and L-L would give 208V.
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