Author Topic: Battery pack made from several small modem packs  (Read 2284 times)

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fabieville

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Battery pack made from several small modem packs
« on: January 29, 2020, 06:01:04 AM »
I have a huge lot of modem battery pack consisting of (3) 18650 Li-ion cells in each of the pack. Each modem battery pack is rated at 10.8v @ 2600mAh as each of the cells inside is rated at 3.6v, 2600mAh and they are connected in series, hence you get the 10.8v rating. The packs comes with built in BMS ( battery management system) in each of them.

I am wondering if it is possible to wires these packs in series/parallel connections to be able to increase the voltage and the current rating to bring the battery to 54v for a 48v ebike with a much higher amps than what one pack would offer?
I have a total of 84 packs so after the series/parallel connections i would end up with a total pack of 54v with an estimated 43amps overall.

My question is, with this proposal each pack would already contain their own built in BMS, so therefore would it be possible to charge the overall pack with a 48v ebike Li-ion charger rated at 54.6v without causing any issues to each of built in BMS bearing in mind that the entire pack is made up of several smaller packs of 10.8v that are connected in series/parallel connections to get an increase in voltage and current.

Would there be any balancing issues or any other issue(s) that may or may not arise from this method?

Next question is if the charging is possible would each of the packs auto regulate the cells inside of them so they don't overdischarge during charging stage of the overall pack and they don't underdischarge during discharging stage when using the ebike?

Would i be able to can pull large amount of current from the overall pack for example 30-35amps without any adverse effect on the cells or each of the built in BMS?

Thanks in advance for the support.
Why i want this to work would be because it would be much easier and less time consuming to built a big battery pack with this method instead of having to scrapping out the cells out of each pack which would be a total of 84 modem packs then have to rewire them in series/parallel connections and then to add a 48v BMS to the overall pack. It would be a very time consuming task.

so what do you think guys would my method work perfectly without causing any issues?
what are your recommendations and suggestions or input on this regards?

richhagen

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Re: Battery pack made from several small modem packs
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2020, 09:00:07 PM »
Hi, your timing is excellent.  I am still playing with these and researching them myself, but this is what I have learned thus far.  Many of these modem batteries from equipment have been becoming available.  Most of the ones I see use Lithium ion batteries most often using 18650 cells.  After watching DamonHD's use of Lithium batteries over the years, I just ordered up 75 of them as scrap to see if any of the cells are salvageable.   

There are some general considerations for each of the individual Lithium ion cells connected in series and parallel to make up a larger battery. 

1. The maximum voltage must not exceed 4.2V or damage to the cell may occur.  In fact, leaving them sit at 4.2V is not very good for most of these cell designs from what I have read in the manufacturer's literature.  Significantly exceeding this cell voltage may not only damage the cells, but in some cases may lead to venting, bursting, shorting and fire. 

2. The cell may be damaged and permanently lose some capacity and cycle life if the voltage falls below 2.5V.  In general, no battery chemistry I am aware of likes to be run dead and the deeper you cycle a battery the fewer cycles you will get in general.  For these modem packs, the condition of the batteries will be degraded if they have been removed from equipment and the cells have gone flat while they are sitting in storage.  From what I have read, (I have never allowed the cells I have to go flat so I do not have personal experience with this outside of laptop batteries) the longer they are left at lower voltages the more damage and less capacity they will have when revived. 

3. They can only be charged and discharged safely at rates below a certain current which is dependent on the particular cell design.  I have some cells from old power drill batteries that were originally only 1300 milli-Amp Hour capacity, but can are rated to discharge current at a rate of up to 10 Amps of current.  The modem ones seem to be more for energy storage and often are around 2200-2600 milli-Amp Hour capacity and are only rated to discharge at one to a few amps.  Charging rates are generally lower than discharging rates.  I do not have empirical data yet to back this up, but from manufacturers literature it appears rather clear that charging them more slowly will increase the number of cycles that you will get out of the batteries.  Charging or discharging them too fast will damage the batteries, and if excessive can cause them again to vent, burst, short, and catch fire. 

4. Charging the cells below 0 Degrees and above roughly 55 Degrees Celsius can damage the cells which of course can also under some limited circumstances result in shorting and fires. 

Now, for building a bigger battery out of those modem packs that you have, each of them will generally have a board built into the battery pack which will try to limit the voltage and current to or from each cell and may also limit the temperature at which the pack can charge or discharge for the above reasons.  Connecting these in series and parallel as packs with individual boards can cause problems if some of the packs cut out and others do not.  In general you are going to have to remove the batteries from the packs and build your bigger battery and add a battery management system often referred to as (BMS) for that pack.

For a 48V Ebike, for example, as you stated you plan to build, you may wish to connect 14 of these in series.  That would give you a nominal voltage of 51.8V, a maximum of 58.8 though I would never go that high, and a flat battery at 35V, though I would again never run it that low.  Most of the available power of the pack would be between 44 and 54 volts and that is probably the range I would try to keep it in, maybe even raising the cut off voltage to 46 if I did not need the minor extra capacity of discharging it deeper.  This voltage range would work with most 48V systems designed to run with lead acid batteries.  Now, if you just hooked 14 2500 milliAmpHour cells together you would just have a 2.5 amp hour roughly 48V nominal battery, which likely would not give you much range and might not safely provide enough current for your bike. 

Connecting these cells in series and parallel presents other problems for you to overcome in designing your battery.  These are magnified by having cells that are likely in differing conditions because of there prior lifetime of use.  The first thing to do is to make some measurements of the condition of each of the cells. 

I have been measuring how much energy they discharge between charged voltage and discharged in milli-Amp Hours (mAH).  I have also been attempting a measurement of their internal resistance, and have been trying to make a measurement of their self discharge rate.  To assist in this I did purchase a charger which has built in diagnostics, a Liitokala Liiengineer-500 model, which has a test function to measure the cell capacity in mAH, and the internal resistance.  To ensure that they do not self discharge too fast, I measure the voltage after a couple of days of them sitting around after I test them. 

If their voltage discharges to less than 4V I do not use them, if their internal resistance measurement exceeds 100 milli-Ohms, I do not used them, and if their capacity is less than 70% of the original rating I do not use them.  These are ballpark parameters I use to toss out cells that I predict may cause me problems with my pack down the road.  If I had a good digital thermometer handy, I would toss out any cells that get hot when charging or discharging on the tests as well. 

Once you have selected cells, you will want each 3.7V section with parallelled cells to have as close to the same capacity to all of the others as possible given the cells that you have available.  If they vary in capacity, then the voltages between the sections may vary considerably during charging and discharging, especially as the battery is nearing full charge upon charging and full discharge upon use.  Additionally if you are connecting a larger number of cells in parallel you want fusing on each cell as a failure in one cell could dump all of the current that the paralleled cells can provide into that failed cell, which could again cause venting, bursting, and fire. 

Once you have the pack wired up and fused, you will need a BMS, fortunately there are plenty of BMS boards available for a home built pack on Ebay and Amazon among other places.  You may want to measure the voltage where it cuts the battery off on discharge and where it stops on charging as well as what voltage it equalizes the cells at as I have read that some cheap BMS boards sold online do not function in a way that will properly protect a battery.  You will also still want to fuse your battery, probably at a rate less than or equal to two thirds of the rated capacity of each cell multiplied by the number of cells in parallel. 

I plan to post on my battery building exploits in the coming week or two, once I have all of my thoughts together, but this is just my thoughts on it for now.  Good luck with your modems, Rich
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Simen

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Re: Battery pack made from several small modem packs
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2020, 12:53:59 AM »
A good and thorough post, Richhagen. :)

You might find specs for your cells through this spreadsheet, though i do not know if it's being updated anymore... :)

I just want to clear up a misconception regarding charging in low temperatures...
It is actually ok to charge lithium cells in temperatures below freezing, as long as you do it with a lower charging current. Most lithium cells have a 'normal' charge current of 0.5C, and can handle 1.0C fast-charge; some even more.

But when the temp. gets below freezing, the chemistry in the cells slow down and plating of metallic lithium can/will occur on the anode if charged at normal rate, and permanent capacity loss are the result. Charging at 0.1C just below freezing should be ok, and slower at lower temperatures. At -30 degrees Celsius the charge rate should not exceed 0.02C.

That said, i do not recommend charging lithium in sub-freezing temps; the best ting to do, is to keep the cells above freezing when charging. ;)

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MagnetJuice

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Re: Battery pack made from several small modem packs
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2020, 02:02:14 AM »
Great post Rich.

This topic will be very useful in the near future, as surplus batteries from EV's become more abundant. There will be many of us interested in making our own battery packs for wind and solar storage.

Thank you for sharing. Looking forward to future postings.

Ed
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richhagen

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Re: Battery pack made from several small modem packs
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2020, 12:34:50 AM »
Fabieville, I am not sure what battery packs you have, but I am saving the 3S boards in the ones that I have as I may re-purpose those for 3S packs for remote solar lighting that I will give away by installing in remote locations for people who need lighting.  We have taken some trips from here in the past where we installed remote solar lighting systems that we built from scratch, but if the over and under voltage cut out circuits still work as well as the cell balancing, these boards may be very useful for that.  Rich
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TDC

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Re: Battery pack made from several small modem packs
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2020, 08:13:24 PM »
To assist in this I did purchase a charger which has built in diagnostics, a Liitokala Liiengineer-500 model, which has a test function to measure the cell capacity in mAH, and the internal resistance.

Great post, lost of good info.  Just a couple comments. 
It's best to store lithium around half charged and many good chargers have a 'storage' setting around 3.7v.
For batteries in parallel, it's best that they be "married at birth". If one is in different condition than another, there is current flow between cells. Hmm.. would the BMS reduce or even prevent that?

I've used an iCharger 206B for years and love it, five star reviews.  It has USB port for data logging and can charge everything from a semi truck to a cell phone.  It's an inverter charger intended to charge or discharge RC batteries from a car battery or power supply. It can also do high power regenerative discharge by pushing the lipo power back to a car (or other) battery.  I've used it to load test everything from tiny lithium to deep cycle lead acid. It's very versatile and could be useful for those with wind or solar. It also has a battery temperature sensor, internal resistance check and other features.  It can do 20 amps & 300 watts.   
https://www.progressiverc.com/icharger-206b.html
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 08:24:57 PM by TDC »