Author Topic: 18650's to start motorcycle...  (Read 2838 times)

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makenzie71

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18650's to start motorcycle...
« on: April 28, 2020, 03:47:06 AM »
...possible?

I got a project coming up and I'll need a battery for it.  I have a pile of 18650's laying around and I'd like to use them if I can sort out how to do it.

It's a 12v system and the charging voltage will never exceed 15vdc, will generally be charging between 13.5 and 14.5, and I'll need to have 150~175 cranking amps.

Is this a feasible project?

Bruce S

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Re: 18650's to start motorcycle...
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 09:01:12 AM »
Short answer?
Yes

However before you start, think about the amount of Cold Cranking Amps at 12Vdc to start a motorcycle.
You'll need these to be able to dump a whole lot . I haven;t worked on anything a 150cc in quite sometime. Even they need a good starting range of about 100CCA.
We always made sure the scoots always had a 200CCA , bigger if the engine got up about the 600cc range.

Hope this helps

Bruce S

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dnix71

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Re: 18650's to start motorcycle...
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 03:52:17 PM »
I couldn't even get 18650's to run a battery powered weed whacker. They will not push more than 5 amps for more than a second or two. To make this work you need a high voltage pack with something to step up the current while bringing down the voltage.

A super/ultra capacitor pack charged by a low voltage pack of 18650's would work better. You can start a car with supercaps because they can push the current.

glort

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Re: 18650's to start motorcycle...
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2020, 04:42:39 AM »

My Harley takes significantly more power to crank than the V6 Gm engine in my ute.  Not sure why but it definitely does.

You are going to need a series / parallel config with the 18650s.  4 in series by about 40 in parallel groups.  Volts is easy, amps will be something else all together.    You will end up with a much larger and Impractically sized battery than a conventional starting battery that's for sure.

margusten

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Re: 18650's to start motorcycle...
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2020, 03:06:10 AM »
Yes, dnix71 is correct.
You need a supercapacitor 12V in parallel of 18650's.
Is one capacitor enough, don't know.
They are used in Car HiFi systems.

taylorp035

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Re: 18650's to start motorcycle...
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2020, 10:38:03 PM »
Unfortunately, it's unlikely you have 18650's that will put out 15-30 amps / piece unless they came out of something high performance like a good power tool.  The next challenge is charging at the right voltage.  3s is a bit low and 4s is too high unless you have some fancy electronics.  Most lithium batteries for cars or motorcycles use LiFEPO4's, which without some good thought into what the charging voltage is and balancing, can quickly become a problem.  I just posted about this not too long ago in the transportation section so you can learn about all of my mistakes.

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150048.0.html

richhagen

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Re: 18650's to start motorcycle...
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2020, 10:21:19 PM »
There are different designs of lithium Ion batteries that are packaged in an 18650 package.  You want cells that can dump a lot of amps, such as ones designed for use in power tools for example.  I have some LG cells designed to pump out ten amps each steady for a time.  They can peak close to double that if I recall directly.  I have others also from LG that are for a maximum 3 Amp draw, and can be damaged if exceeding something like five or six amps.  You can look up the specs of your cell usually if the printing is still on the side.  That will give you some idea of how many you would need to parallel to safely reach the peak voltage that you require.  If you can couple it with an ultracapacitor bank of Maxwell's boost caps, you may be able to reduce your max amperage for a function like engine starting.  One other consideration is that charging Lithium Ion batteries below the 0 degrees can damage them, so if you are in a place that gets a winter climate, or are planning on using your bike in one, that may be a consideration.  Auto companies generally use battery heaters to overcome this for larger battery packs, but such a strategy is likely not easy for a small motorcycle or even automobile starting battery. 
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makenzie71

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Re: 18650's to start motorcycle...
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2020, 06:54:41 PM »
My bikes are usually stored in my shop or in my garage in the winter...it does get below freezing regularly but not for extended periods of time.

I think my biggest issue is finding a battery arrangement that can be charged with my bike's stator/regulator.  It's not precise.  It's going to hit the batteries with somewhere between 12.5 and 14 volts, usually running about 14.25~14.4 going down the highway.

If there's another battery that'll do the job I'm all ears.  I just focused on teh 18650 because I got a ton of them (from power tools) and I thought I'd be able to arrange them in small packs I could parallel together to get the cranking amps I need.

dnix71

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Re: 18650's to start motorcycle...
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2020, 01:26:23 PM »
A123 26650 are sold here. 120 amp discharge pulse rated. Lithium iron cells.
https://www.batteryspace.com/a123-lifepo4-26650-rechargeable-cell-3-3v-2500-mah-50a-rate-8-25wh-anr26650m1b---un38-3-passed-and-iec-listed.aspx

This forum discusses using these larger, tested cells in packs to get a medium duty car starting battery with a lot lower storage capacity.
https://secondlifestorage.com/showthread.php?tid=449 Note the comment by station240