An Proto-Teach Éireannach

[SparWeb]

Please excuse the ballparkometer (current clamp)

Forgiving. I have the same one - use it all the time.  Who really needs 3 decimal places, anyway?

[Scruff]

I've been tempted to trade it for a 376 more than once. I could definitely use more than 4kΩ range, mV and frequency. Plus the inrush is not as fast detecting as they'd have you believe.
They go for about the same used. I doubt you can mess up the calibration significantly when there's no fuse.
I got an 87V instead of trading up.

Two meters are better than a twice as good meter. You often want to measure volts plus current or input and output.
The only thing is when you get confused about the probes and blow yer €20 HRC fuse swapping the voltage meter to current range....I suppose you only do that once....


The "Chinese domestic market" ones are pretty good value for entry level. F17/F18/F19

[Scruff]

...easier, more efficient ways to be sure...but for some probably unreproducable reason I happen to have a "cheaper" less efficient solution involving thousands of bucks of hardware instead...

Introducing the grid-tied campervan v1.0

Notes on Vid.
Golf cart battery not forklift.
Simplified Anti-Islanding device works perfect, tested.

Sidebar:

Cleaned....



Updated:

[Bruce S]

SOooo, I'm not the only one who uses the handle of a screw driver as a pointer  .

Nice setup!
I was trying to get a better view of the stove, looks like the one I'm currently Rehabbing to install outside. 4-burner (3) 5k burners (1) simmer burner.

Cheers
Bruce S

[Scruff]

Hehe...Do you use the blunt end to point with too?

The stove is a 2kW Wendy
She was a 2.5kW when I bought it but they've been derated since.

That quadruple conversion solution was a disaster...

I had to keep beating myself with KISS principles.

114W on the roof.
90W into the souper charger XtraLite
70W into the battery



60% efficient before the final conversion..

Okaayy...try DC FTW

70V Boost Regulator sequentially deployed...





Power Out of Camper



Power into powerplant

Near Unity.

....Well is it? Without proportional control? 
Good on paper. Not so in practicality.

Righto...get rid of all that fancy shyte in the middle...



Skip the diodes too they're for PWM controllers.

Bingo. Parallel isolated batteries with stereo MPPTs on a single panel.
12V & 24V



That's as unity as I'm gonna get.

[Scruff]

I dunno how Pro that ProStar is.

Doesn't show kW
Doesn't show "VA"
Doesn't show array voltage.

Invalid registers on both flavours of MS Meter.

If I change any "advanced" settings (like current limit) I have to reset the controller.

Why are 48V heads mature enough for kilowatts and 12v/24v heads fobbed off with Amp hours? Which one is more accurate and universal? 
Next they'll have us calling batteries after finacial instituitions by volume.

No tail current parameter.
Thanks for low-temperature foldback...ahem...what about high temp foldback?

Nice buttons you don't have to bludgeon them like their other meters (I swear it says it in the tech support manual...FAQ: Meter doesn't work...Press it harder!)



The menu doesn't auto-cycle though (well it can but you can turn it off).
I'll almost forgive lack of tail current feedback for that.

[DamonHD]

Would you parallel on the same panels a Sunsaver MPPT to batteries and (say) an Enphase microinverter to mains, with or without diodes?

Rgds

Damon

[Bruce S]

Hehe...Do you use the blunt end to point with too?

I used the biz end of a flat tip as a pointer once, while teaching teens how to perform maintenance on a V8 (replacing points,plugs and condenser) .
Condenser was still charged  .
That tickled a WHOLE lot!!

I curios about the rooftop panel. Is it due to the angle that the input is so low?  80quid for it seems fair tho.

Cheers
Bruce S

[Scruff]

Would you parallel on the same panels a Sunsaver MPPT to batteries and (say) an Enphase microinverter to mains, with or without diodes?

I would but I dunno if how well it'll work without trying it and I haven't any micro-inverters lying around. I might revisit it later on the truck with her 1.5kW array but I expect I'll still use the Studer.
The biggest drawback of the Studer back-feeding is it undermines the MorningStars finishing the job properly.

Micro-inverters cost the same as panels. It's hard to argue their practicality especially for sharing a panel.
I like the dual DC solution. I care more about my batteries than feeding the grid. I'm already giving away loads of power that I produce due to the house's load profile.

I used the biz end of a flat tip as a pointer once, while teaching teens how to perform maintenance on a V8 (replacing points,plugs and condenser) .
Condenser was still charged  .

Ouchies. Never had the pleasure myself. I tend to look at distributors as an invitation to convert to an electronic ignition anyways.

I curios about the rooftop panel. Is it due to the angle that the input is so low?  80quid for it seems fair tho.

That's an old one I can get larger cheaper these days.
There's nothing wrong with the output. It hits the peg on the SunSaver 200W fairly often when out and about.
You're looking at a combination of factors, charged batteries, cloudy day, house shading, chimney shading, horizontal mount (-20%), dusk, etc...

[Scruff]

Would you parallel on the same panels a Sunsaver MPPT to batteries and (say) an Enphase microinverter to mains, with or without diodes?

Shucks the more I think about this the more I think that's a really good idea. Now glossing over the legalities of mobile installations grid feeding with nationally non-compliant hardware..because well; boring and under the radar.....

Connect a panel gti to shore power...a lottov campers sit in driveways 350 days a year with a parasitic load on the house from their battery tender and the solar on top operating at decimal duty cylce and never paying back it's embodied energy.

..I bet I can convince people to use 30 cell grown up panels instead of those silly stickers they seem to prefer....hrrmmmm, the plot thickens.. 

Instead of costing ~€30 a year as a parasitic it could be offsetting ~€50 a year and use the exact same hook-up lead. 

[DamonHD]

Yes, legalities to one side for a moment, providing it's safe...

As you say, you could convert a bunch of small parasitic loads to a gentle grid-assist.

Wouldn't fix the planet but at least stops poking it in eye for no reason.

Rgds

Damon

[Scruff]

Yes, legalities to one side for a moment, providing it's safe...

The difference between Irish compliance and Europe is frequency divergence tolerance thresholds and time as well as anti-islanding timeout. What they've succeeded in doing is making a miniscule market so exclusive that manufacturers can't afford to finance to put hardware through compliance standards testing. Those who do get a monopoly of a non-existent maket.

The Irish energy suppliers are very unprogressive of opening the door to competitors. I mostly use G83-2 hardware because it's cheap and works. The grids are identical except we don't endorse ring mains and run 230V not 240V.

There's no used solar goods in Ireland. The only uptake are from "early adopters" and they're getting fleeced.

As you say, you could convert a bunch of small parasitic loads to a gentle grid-assist.

Wouldn't fix the planet but at least stops poking it in eye for no reason.

Turns out it's a tough pitch. Most recreational users want a thin film sticker for ease of install. So 100W is ~ €400 and they're happy to pay it for the most part. Despite the panel derating due to being heat-sinked to a metal shell and only lasting 5 years due to UV instability.

More live in cities where a trailing lead isn't practical.

The only ones I've seen with enough sense to fly 300W panels that cost a fraction of the camper "12 volters" are those who use their vessels full time and hence don't have a regular hook-up.
I'm basically pitching it to the pensioners (with free electricity from the state) with their €70k Driveway Queens that have a faactory fit chocy teapot charge system that does everything they need (runs the lights for an hour between "hook-up" destinations, replace battery every 2 years...)

I'm gonna start offering it as a service but I doubt many will go for it.
I can use Enphase Micro-inverters. They work stand-alone and can be got for <£100.
Connected to the Charger Only circuit of the vessel they'll back-feed on shore power but not on inverter via the standard shore power connection point.
Anti-islanding will prevent the vessel plug from becoming live if exposed.

I would use the diodes for this, you probably don't need them if it's a (genuine*) DC MPPT charge controller and a microinverter but unless you want to scope the system the diodes can't hurt other than a parasitic Vf.

I found Solar V data in the ProStar it's in the background.



Wasn't a great day but that 265W panel float charged the van's habitation battery, and engine start battery and delivered 390Wh to the house on a pretty overcast day. Even my main array was struggling to meet 25% output.

For the record Bruce:
8A x 25V = 200W on one of three batteries....nothing wrong with that panel. 



I've about 0.5V (tested at ~6A) cable losses on the solar panel to the powerplant over ~20m>25m 3mm²


PS.. I'll take that screen protector off when I'm finished trolling all you folks with it...Mwahaha..
   

[Scruff]

Just to be clear lest one be confused by the thematic tone of the thread. I am not pro lead nor anti li-ion.
I'm pro Sh1t that works, affordably and reliably.
I'm anti-wasting time and money on hardware that fails to perform.

Power has to be affordable and reliable, end of story!

WuPoG has graduated to field testing! Whoop! I've got a clear workbench huzzah!



I've been fielding her as one of these new-fangled grid-tied batteries and she's not suitable.
Her capacity is too small, she's either fully charged and not useful as a buffer or too small to power a sustained heavy load. I was cascading her and short-cycling through my powerplant but peukerts exponent derating of the lead capacity is nowhere near as bad as her double-conversion micro-cycling. So now she is only what she was designed to do. Light-duty stand-alone and heavy-duty torque filling.

I could synchronise her to utility and just let her priority load support like a contemporary setup but as I've pointed out that'd be lighting the money I threw in a hole.
Funny thing, I've never seen data from one of these new trendy systems nor a complete empirical data based payback projection. Mad...

What I do until I get the diversion controllers up and firing is go off-grid any day it's abundantly sunny, gather data and let the system recuperate and trickle back-feed when the weather changes.



The most recent system topology change means the powerplant supplies all the solar-synced capacity and loads up to 3.5kVA, after that WuPoG shares load by synchronising, adding up to 4kVA to the party and then recharges from the powerplant and PV at low C-rates when load drops.
If the new regime grants me a two day house runtime I'll know that I could achieve similar results with one large lead battery and parallel inverters.



Li-Fi just hangs out. Low SOC because that's how you store LFP. So if there's a powercut she's pointless. She keeps company with Leadite a 2.5kVA with no battery.




Lead-Fi is stored docked to the Powerplant (compromising of two different battery chemistries (AGM + Gel) & 5 different capacity batteries (8 x 10Ah, 3 x 200Ah, 6 x 110Ah, 4 x 40Ah, 1 x 60Ah) four different brands)
Mostly she lends her battery to the powerplant. Sometimes she adds her MS front end 20A charger to the mix (195A of chargers currently connected (not including Lead-Fis inverter in unsanctioned AC couple mode)) and other times she donates 1200VA to the party too.

Portraits of practical applications.

[Scruff]

Almost forgot to post this.



Neat huh!

It also does battery voltage min/max and time in absorption/float.

No that's not as good as tail current feedback!
Why do I keep harping on about it?

How do you fast charge?

You use overvoltage and ram current into the receptacle until it strains to receive it.
ie. the charge acceptance diminishes hence the correct end of charge can be triggered by tail current, a voltage waaay over recommended can be used without harm and charge time hence genset run times can be decimated.



It's especially important when charging li-ion when using the middle SOC because the voltage is so flatline that the bulk stage is over in seconds.

It's a star...It ain't pro.

[Scruff]

I sent my observations up the food chain about the ProStar. MS said thanks very much....what diplomats..
If anyone has nothing better to do please email support@morningstarcorp.com and express your desire for tail current feedback control...the world will be a better place for it I promise.

Autopsy report came back from Studer:



Now the funny thing is, I'm not the original owner...thanks for the warranty.
It is above board I included my reseller's receipt.

Nor is it a matching RM# to my assigned one.

Oh well, twas a bargain to turn a now boat anchor into a boss again.
(charged for shipping and minor diagnostic fee)

Having hedged my bets and bought a replacement already there may be one appearing on the Eblague soon enough. I need 3 x 24v Xtenders more than 2 x 48V...


Good to know it had nothing to do with the relay drivers I suppose (or they never realised)

Nor this beautiful power factor I was running the day before...

[Scruff]

My Immersion controller failed already.
I am absolutely unsurprised.

I knew from the datasheet the 16A rating was BS.
The relay inside is anemic.

The contact bent under the heat stress and it was failing open circuit having deformed under the heat and never returned to shape.



I bent it back.

I give her another 4 months to live then I might upgrade the relay or bend it again.

You can see the evolution of design here...



Started with a transistor but they were failing like bejaysus..

Upspec-ed to an Omron over-rated relay.



And bolstered the traces because they knew letting it outtov the factory it would not do rated.

What?!

Oh, 13A resistive load was all.

 

[Scruff]

Whatdya mean what's it do?

It's a revolutionary magnetic latching contactor coil controller design of course!¿!

 

NC / NO = micro-switch
SPDT = micro relay.




Whatdya mean what's it do?

It's a 100A contactor with a 0.25W quiescent!¿!

Fine, I'll build it...hand me the...whatchamicallit willya please?

[SparWeb]

Really?
I haven't had trouble with Omron before.

[Scruff]

Thinking about the lead thing, specifically how I maintain that the charge every week thing is BS if you have a proper charger that does this once a month.



And the significance of this graph in terms of operational efficiency and the inherent difficulty in achieving 100% SOC



..in terms of the inconvenience of it..the embarrassment of designing your charger that looks broken because it never attains float, the inexplicable paranoia that biases undercharging that stems from ferroresonant chargers from the 80s, the lack of uptake of people wanting battery monitors that don't lie and say 100% when they mean 95%, and of course programming anything non-linear is more difficult so why bother right? Exactly nobody does....so instead the users are locked in a charge weekly regime not because of the battery but the charger topology.

People say lead's not suitable for grid-tied batteries because of the maintenance.

We live in a world of automation...are you saying that adding a refilling kit and programming a semi-conductor to allow 120% charge once a month ( in a system that has utility support 24/7) is to be disregarded in preference of a battery chemistry that spontaneously combusts in the right circumstances and is 10% the relative capacity for the comparative cost and can't work in a power cut due to it's insignificant size?


Uh oh...almost went off on one...

Back on point. I use 14.8V + temperature compensation and tail current to fully charge a flooded lead battery. I never have to EQ.
It occurred to me that EQ is a fast-track water intense way through the inefficiency belt. The result is the same  Higher specific gravity, acceptable overcharge. The difference is the time taken and water loss.

So EQing has a place, there's a reason for it, although they say the reason is cell balancing. In effect I've found a simmer method that's better than boil, and my lead is aging exceptionally gracefully.

[Scruff]

Really?

Me neither SparWeb, they're usually the upper tier mid range. Decent quality at an affordable price.
Proof of the pudding is in the eating though.



This is a 12A relay.

[bigrockcandymountain]

People say lead's not suitable for grid-tied batteries because of the maintenance.

8

Funny you should say this.  I was just thinking while replying to the other battery thread, "I wonder why the grid doesn't use lead batteries instead of lithium."

The maintenance requirements of lead seem like a really weak excuse for not using it.  I would also add lead is very easily recycled compared to lithium.

Scruff, i like your method of low current high voltage topping up of batteries.  I've been doing a bunch that way this last week with good results on most of them. I go until current drops below 1a. It really does seem to be a slower, less water using way to equalize.  Thanks for the tip.  You're saving me money. 

[Scruff]

Happy to help BigRock.

1A is probably sensible, I know I said zero but with a war-weary battery that may never happen if you are using a very high voltage, It'll find resistances and soft shorts to power. I would not be afraid to simmer a really sorry and neglected battery for 2 weeks.
 
A healthy one will zero with a 14.7V Absorp. (@12v) which I often see go to 15.2V in Winter allowing for temperature compensation....which incidentally will trip a lottov cheapy inverters on HVD.


The maintenance thing  is mad, I can buy an automatic maintenance kit and automate the charger and still come out at a fraction of the price of Li-ion and no derating or disconnecting chargers in the cold when you need them most.



Ooohh the dangerous gasses...recombinant plugs!



AKA Water Misers

Recyclability is another issue indeed; 98% of lead is recycled. Li-ion 70% recyclable but <5% is recycled.
Guess which li-ion figure the media uses?
Here pass me the die grinder while I unwrap this explosive 18650 for 4 grams of usable material please?

I forgot to mention Lead of any battery has a chance of paying it's financial debt back.

Here's the example from earlier



Natch this wan too



1500 cycles to 80% rated capacity (LFP use 70% more often than not) 80% discharge...what...not 50%! 80%!

80% of 630Ah x 49v x 1500 cycles = 37MWh
€2663 / 37MWh = €0.07 per kWh
Utility power = 0.16 per kWh

Now you still gotta buy an inverter and a power source and switchgear and meters and control gear and pay installers so it's not gonna make ya rich.

Sure Li-ion says they can do 20 billion cycles but if you read any paper on the subject they did 20 test cycles and multiplied the answer by a billion. {usually, 300ish to be fair}....in a climate-controlled lab.


Another major (the biggest) factor why grid-tied lead batteries aren't popular is the same as transformerless inverters are taking over.
Manufacturers don't want to pay to ship the weight and installers don't want to lift them.

They say a TL inverter is more efficient....er well a TL inverter is 5% more efficient...but transformer inverters live an average 5 years longer...so er...anyone good at maths?
My SB1700 transformer GTI was £50....someone threw it out for "an upgrade".


I believe you can also use rainwater as an electrolyte. You can resistance check the purity.
Air con. naturally discharges distilled water too.
The topping up water must be purified. The water used to refill the batteries must have a conductance of not more than 30 μS/ cm.

[clockmanFRA]

Hi Scruff,

Okay news here in France, regards batteries.

My French friend Dimitri, Eco Warrior type built his off grid cabin, has at last seen the light regards batteries and that Lead Acid is a better ROI, Return on Investment, than the latest Li-ion types.

We had a meeting with a Li-ion French supplier, that Dimitri was going for a system, and i got my Australian tables out, ie that one i showed on this Forum to you.
 Anyways a heated exchange ensued.  The Li-ion guy was not best pleased with me, especially with the info i have gathered from  BATER lead acid batteries manufacturer from our nearby European country in Poland.





Now, i have no dealings with this company in Poland. They seem mostly to do Fork lift lead acid battery packs.

Dimitri and I have checked out the Satellite images etc, and the factory is there,  So Dimitri has sent his Polish friend to investigate and see what is what and report back.

I doubt if my PLANTE lead acid will be ready very soon, so Dimitri and I might have 2off, 2v cells OPzs 800, 48v systems, but we await Dimitri's friend report.

Yes you are correct, there is some dodgy deals going on regards Li-ion.

 

[Scruff]

The Li-ion guy was not best pleased with me, especially with the info i have gathered from  BATER lead acid batteries manufacturer from our nearby European country in Poland.

How odd a fellow planet warrior wasn't pleased you'd found an affordable ecological solution.   

[clockmanFRA]

Scruff,

On a differing note.

PV panels, as you know the trade deal and customs between the EU and the UK is a shambles, and France is imposing maximum tariffs on product entering France from UK, basically 40% tax,  so all my normal suppliers are now extinct.

Dimitri says that all French PV wholesalers/retailers are a rip off and the products are bad.

So my question to you, Any PV suppliers in Ireland willing to sell to France? we are all supposedly in Europe? 

[Scruff]

Eff yes we're Europeans...

Inquire here.

Email sent via PM

Ask for a trade discount (20% off)
Another 20% off if you can charge VAT.

They'll probably entertain tenders of a palette, 30 panels (at a further reduced rate + P&P).
No harm in asking if you need less.

[Scruff]

You'd be better of with a cyclic battery CM
The one you posted is a standby type.

The standbys will have a slightly weaker electrolyte acid strength amongst other minor differences.

[clockmanFRA]

Yes, thanks Scruff for the detail info.

We have not got down to the actual specific type details yet in our investigations with BATER.

[Scruff]

New commission...

Ina nutshell
Beat this,  on price, upkeep and versatility:



With a prime directive of charging 18V power tool batteries..

[Scruff]

I stole this on the Eblague.

Midweek auction, missing the original sticker and shuko socket (Mainland EU) on a British Standard Isle.



She's a Samlex Pure Sine high frequency...



I don't usually go for HF...
I don't usually go for Samlex having seen the standard of their mollified square waiver machines...in fairness...why put lipstick on a pig?....er well they do charge a premium for that porcine..

Look at this!!
I'm blown away.

Less THD than a Victron



Higher Resolution than a Sterling Lump



Low noise, and lightweight!
Cwaor..I'm impressed.
I'm gonna see how she likes 100% duty tomorrow 600VA.


Look at the build quality!





Gold Star for anyone who can locate the LVD resistor...



...otherwise I'm hacking the front power switch with an Ebay board.

[Scruff]

Does anyone else keep their oscilloscope beside their pneumatic impacts?

[Mary B]

Samlex pure sine inverters are the go to for ham radio operators. They have the least amount of RFI of any inverter I have tested and meet FCC and UL requirements for low noise. I have a pair of them...

[Scruff]

Yes Mizz B I am most impressed at the quality for the cost (the inverse is true for their MSW jobbers).
I hear Studers wipe out 3.5Mhz and it's conducted via the cables not just at the unit.

I ran her 100% continuous rated duty today until my CR-235s were outta steam.



Temps were fine. Case temp ~30°C
The system dropped an entire volt under load.
Er well C4...to be expected



Considering that I decided not to bother with an "external" LVD control.
The inverter started howling at me at 50% SOC at full load so I can't expect to do better especially since I'm coupling it to a Yuasa 110Ah engine starting battery not a 235Ah motive battery.

She'll do rated continuous



Camper Battery Out, Power Plant In



52W Reactive power but .99 power factor 

~85% efficient @ 100% load...not bad

Frequency= correct ± 0.1hz



Pretty low THD @ rated load