personal vehicle comment

[jlsoaz]

I am in process of trading in my 2013 Chevy Volt PHEV and taking out a loan on a 2015 Tesla Model S 70.  As with many purchases, it was not a straight financial calculation but also depended on other factors.  For me that included that I got tired of waiting for the other manufacturers to give me their absolute best effort on a great long-range BEV.   It was as though they were saying "wait just a bit longer".  No, I'm not waiting just a bit longer.

Once they sell it new into the marketplace then I have to wait 5-10 years before I can afford to buy it used.  Jaguar, Audi and Porsche have finally sold good long-range BEVs, but it will be years before the used prices come down to my level (if they ever do).  All of the other longer-range BEVs had reasons why they were not acceptable for my purposes, basically falling under "not giving me their best effort".  There were no exceptions at this time, so I had to either get a used Tesla or bite the bullet and accept the insult of a less-expensive more-compromised effort from a competitor.

In an ideal world, I would be able to network to use the Volt in some sort of strange/interesting/needed zero-carbon drop-in-replacement synthetic fuels experiment, but I can't forego the money at this time.

[SparWeb]

Thanks Jlsoaz,
There are a few layers on the onion that I'd like to peel away, if you don't mind.

It seems you have tried to contact dealerships for your purchases.  Have you seen or answered listings from private owners?
Has the trade-in process proven to be your preferred method?  Would it be realistic to try selling privately yourself in order to buy privately?

I ask for purely selfish reasons.  I usually buy and sell vehicles privately.  Since I have resolved for my next vehicle to be electric or at the very least a plug-in hybrid, the field of buyers and sellers can get very small.

Whatever experience you have had with dealerships, I may be able to tell you a worse story.  Very little respect is offered to buyers who want an electric vehicle at a dealership in Calgary, Canada.

What are you talking about in your last sentence?
(Perhaps it helps to point out that I'm not an american).

[dnix71]

SparWeb It gets cold in Calgary. How would you prevent batteries from freezing and deal with the loss of range in the winter?

[Scruff]

Most of them have preheaters. They discharge fine sub-zero, charging is the red flag.
Makes me wonder quite a lot about this V2G viability...call me a cynic I don't think it'll work.

[SparWeb]

Battery temperature in Canada is an important part of the specification. Sometimes difficult to figure out from the manufacturer's website or magazine reviews.
It narrows down the field to only BEV's that have a thermal management system (seems to eliminate the Nissan Leaf for now). 
Chevy Volt hybrid and all Teslas are OK.  Chevy Bolt, Kona and BMW i3 are not sold in Canada, and very few have been imported from the USA.
Given the low probability that they have a heavy duty battery temp management system I may not pursue the details on them since they are so rare.

When I'm actually ready to buy, I am sure that the only way to get a full picture is to go to each dealer's lot and drive the car.  Sounds simple, but I expect it will be ridiculously hard in Calgary. 
As a project in itself I can do it.  Many stories may be told about inept salesmen, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

[Scruff]

It narrows down the field to only BEV's that have a thermal management system (seems to eliminate the Nissan Leaf for now). 

That's a shame. I heart Japese cars. ...something about being able to fix everything with 5 spanners.
afaik the Japanese are the only ones putting battery outlets on the charge connectors.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Moderator mode: <Sparweb>
Scruff, I had to edit that just a little.  Having been called out on that stuff myself, long ago.

[Scruff]

New project for you Sparweb...

[SparWeb]

Oooh yeah...
Dual Warp 9's on a 250V drive would burn rubber.

[taylorp035]

I would of bought an electric vehicle by now (huge electric vehicle fan - shook Chelsea Sexton's hands at one of the first showings of 'Who Killed the Electric Car', and dreamed of making an electric car conversion before Tesla hit the scene), but it doesn't make financial sense for a car that can do my commute (100 miles, often times with several inches of snow on the ground, so the range needs to be a solid 200 miles on a nice warm day).  This is surprising since my electricity would be mostly free.   But when you factor in how much money you can make on a $40k investment per year, I can do better driving my 21 year old car from my grandma or my 21 year old sports car/race car.  If I had 5 daily drivers, then sure, but I don't have that much garage space and I'm too practical to get another car when I already have two good running cars, a classic car and a project car (note, I share all of these with a second person, who happens to have access to free car charging at the moment).

Maybe I'll get an electric car once a decent one comes down to $15k +/- $5k, but gas cars are still decently fun and I'm a diehard manual enthusiast.  Also with potential car pooling and working from home more often, the dollars just don't add up.

If gas prices per to triple to $5-7 / gallon (PA taxes area really trying with what I think are the highest in the USA now...) and I had to drive a lot more, then maybe.

[SparWeb]

Cars always cost money so they will never stack up well against the return of an investment account.
I'm surprised about the daily commute you refer to: 200 miles?!  I take it that goes there and back again.  For your average US vehicle about 20 years old, then getting 20 mpg you need 10 gallons per trip and refill at least twice a week.  If you pay 3$ per gallon then it costs you 30 bucks a day or 8,000 per year to drive to work.  Unfortunately, I can't think of a hybrid that would make much of a dent in that consumption AND give you the range you need.  A Prius or Outlander PHEV doesn't go far on electric alone.  This is common in North America, myself included.  We have to optimize our living expenses, but at the cost of travel expenses.  I got what I needed and kept my commute below 70 miles round-trip.  An EV is possible for me, just barely, and a hybrid is more likely the right choice.

[taylorp035]

My commute is 50 miles each way, so 100 miles total.  It costs about $10-$15 in direct fuel costs.  Long term, it's about $0.40/mile once you include all the costs (maintenance, depreciation, insurance, tires,...).  My past fun cars cost about $0.55-$0.75 per mile.  My new fun car is about $0.40/mile and my Oldsmobile is about $0.20-$0.25/mile.

A used Volt with a ~50 mile plug in range is a tempting option since I loose 1-2 MPG just from the big hill and it's stop sign at the bottom near my house.  There are other large hills as well (going down 400 feet of elevation and then back up 650 feet and back down another 250 feet along the 50 mile trip).  If I was smart, I would of bought a model 3 when it first came out, lost almost nothing on depreciation and paid very little for fuel and sold it after $50k miles.

[Simen]

If you have a 230 V outlet at work for charging, any used Leaf will do, even one where the battery are down to 85% SoH (State of Health)...
And the elevation profile you're describing are always interesting to drive - you'll probably discover you use less energy one way.

I got a small cabin only 25 miles from home which resides at 1000 feet; home are at 100 feet. I use around 35% energy driving to the cabin, but only 20% to get home with my elderly Leaf (from 2013)...

Edit;
I just lost the first bar on the SoH meter, which means that the battery are down to 85% SoH, but i still get around 75+ miles (120+ km) on one charge. This is with the 24 kWh battery; the Leaf with the 30 kWh battery introduced in - 2015 i think, one should get close to 100 miles.
- and of course, with the newest Leaf you can choose between 40 kWh and 60kWh battery...

[bigrockcandymountain]

The old vw diesels get an actual 50 mpg highway and lots have manuals.  They are very fun to drive cars.  I had a 2001 with almost 500 000km on it.  Sold it because now we need to fit 3 carseats. 

I would love an electric car too, they just aren't there in the used market much and it would be tricky when we only produce 5 kwh a day in the winter. 

I might have to build a bigger turbine. 

[SparWeb]

Having an EV and having RE at your home doesn't match up as well as the sunshine sales force would have you believe.  Wind is intermittent in most places and the sun is shining when you have driven away from the house, assuming you use the car as a daily driver.  If you are using the EV as an infrequently driven vehicle, then this may end up OK.  Especially since the fuel station is now your house.  If you drive the EV as a daily commute, then you also get the maximum benefits of both less tailpipe emissions and less cost to your wallet.  Daily commuting with the EV also compensates for the more distant cost ratio of the energy and materials invested into the product you just purchased, which provokes building another car, rather than continuing to drive the car you already had. 

But don't let me stop you from building a bigger WT!

[Mary B]

For the 3k miles a year I drive now an EV doesn't make economic sense... 2 trips to town a month unless I have some medical appointments and I try to schedule those in such a way to match when I need to get groceries. The new Escape I have(2017 with 15k miles) is getting about 25mpg so not a huge gas user... fill it every 2-3 months!

[richhagen]

I still have my 2007 hybrid Ford Escape.  I ordered it new in 2006 and received it in October.  It is closing in on 200K miles and has a bit of rust now from being parked outside most of its life.  Still runs well, but I will probably be replacing it in a year or two.  I have a garage now, which makes charging easier should I get an electric.  I do like the idea of using solar to do at least part of the charging.  A Tesla would be interesting, but I am not quite yet seriously looking to buy a replacement.  I note that a model X configured the way I would like it would cost about 90K+ U.S. of my savings.  I am not sure how long they last, I would want it to last a long time at that price as it is nearly 3 times (non-adjusted for inflation) what I paid for the Escape.  Batteries for an electric vehicle used to cost more than the gas tank for a car and all of the gas one would likely run through it over the life of the car.  Batteries have significantly dropped in price in the ensuing years, but they are still pretty pricey when one looks at the potential energy in a gallon of gas at its current prices. 
 

[SparWeb]

You haven't had to replace the battery in the Escape?

Battery replacement is a big mid-life cost for an EV which doesn't have a common equivalent in typical autos.  There is an equivalent "shock" in aviation, where every 2000 hours or so you have to have the engine overhauled.  It has a big impact on the resale price of small aircraft, and sellers have to take off several thousand dollars from the asking price if the engine is getting close to overhaul time.

[dnix71]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/california-to-ban-sale-of-new-gas-powered-cars-in-2035-under-newsom-order/ar-BB19m4E0

Newsome will be long gone and his executive order will be overturned by a future governor.  The ban supposedly includes plug-in electrics. There is no such thing a a zero-emission car. Even if the electricity to run it is all nuclear or solar, there was a cost to make the nuclear plant or solar panels and to dispose of them at the end of their service life. California also has the distinction of blocking nuclear plant construction before the US Supreme Court by arguing that the disposal cost of nuclear plants is unknowable because the fuel cycle is not closed. The Supremes agreed and let the construction ban stand.

[jlsoaz]

Thanks Jlsoaz,
There are a few layers on the onion that I'd like to peel away, if you don't mind.

It seems you have tried to contact dealerships for your purchases.  Have you seen or answered listings from private owners?
Has the trade-in process proven to be your preferred method?  Would it be realistic to try selling privately yourself in order to buy privately?

I ask for purely selfish reasons.  I usually buy and sell vehicles privately.  Since I have resolved for my next vehicle to be electric or at the very least a plug-in hybrid, the field of buyers and sellers can get very small.

Whatever experience you have had with dealerships, I may be able to tell you a worse story.  Very little respect is offered to buyers who want an electric vehicle at a dealership in Calgary, Canada.

What are you talking about in your last sentence?
(Perhaps it helps to point out that I'm not an american).

I can see how from my talk about "trading" that it might sound like I'm going through a dealer, but actually, I am purchasing the Model S 70 from a private party, and then I'm going to sell the Volt and pay down some of the debt, so I was just thinking of it as trading.  It has been a really bad customer experience, and is ongoing.  Four weeks ago we met at the bank.  Nothing wrong with the seller, they've been fine except on one minor thing, and I save on certain aspects. 

The bank has defecated on my time a few times, as has the Arizona Motor Vehicle department.  I have yet to actually speak by phone with a person at the AZ MVD who can look at their computer and help me transfer the title.  The situation has cost me too much time, money and grief.  I have a nice paperweight tesla sitting in my garage though that I cannot legally drive yet on the street.

Under normal circumstances, whether I was going through a dealer or a private party, I would just politely point out to you that I'm ok for a not-horrible dealer to get paid their premium.  I am as averse to DIY financial transactions as I am to DIY making my own car or windmill or any of that, but it's understood that not everyone is like that, and I can be polite about it.  But this particular transaction has been difficult.  Note that I'm kind of unapollogetically not good at things like this.  Still, when it's done, the vehicle is more or less what I wanted, so, having got that out of my system, acknowledging these are first world problems.

So, why did I go here with private party?  I am so far out of my league on the finances here that if I could save even just a few thousand, I had to go with that, and the seller was able to meet my price needs but also answer my questions about the battery, and I guess I decided I was going to jump on the first vehicle where it sounded like I could have confidence in some of the basics working properly, and where I could meet the price, whether through a dealer or a private party.

[jlsoaz]

Battery temperature in Canada is an important part of the specification. [...]

Good to get this information, thx.

Important in Arizona too.  Nissan Leaf, with its lack (as far as I know) of really good thermal management, was not an option.

[Simen]

Battery temperature in Canada is an important part of the specification. [...]

Good to get this information, thx.

Important in Arizona too.  Nissan Leaf, with its lack (as far as I know) of really good thermal management, was not an option.

Most of the Leaf sold here in Norway (there are a lot of them), come with a 'nordic' package, which includes thermal heating for the battery pack (and heated seats and heated steering wheel). It would be strange if the same package wasn't default in Canada and the northern US states?

Even my US-imported Leaf has it.

[jlsoaz]

Battery temperature in Canada is an important part of the specification. [...]

Good to get this information, thx.

Important in Arizona too.  Nissan Leaf, with its lack (as far as I know) of really good thermal management, was not an option.

Most of the Leaf sold here in Norway (there are a lot of them), come with a 'nordic' package, which includes thermal heating for the battery pack (and heated seats and heated steering wheel). It would be strange if the same package wasn't default in Canada and the northern US states?

Even my US-imported Leaf has it.

Interesting, I'd like to see the answer to this.  One big unanswered question in my mind is whether (or to what extent) Nissan is disrespecting Mexicans and other hot-climate citizens who are buying the Leaf.  Nissan already discovered that the gen1 Leaf was really unacceptable in terms of battery degradation in hot climates and I think they kind of hid their heads in the sand on this issue in the successive efforts.  Finally it looks like they will include better thermal management on the upcoming Ariya, but what about those Leafs that are still being deployed in the very hot climates?

At the same time, this issue of performance in cold weather, while not as part of my personal concern, has its own bucket of concerns.

[SparWeb]

Hi Simen,

Your experience driving an EV in winter in Norway is about as close as I can get to reliable testimony.  Anything you can tell me will be valuable. 
Traction
Braking
Handling
Hill-climbing
Torque-steer
The list is very very long...

I'm not sure what's in the Leaf battery, but I can't see much thermal control either hot or cold.  Each battery cell is a "cake pan" sized metal box with only 2 electrodes and a third electrode that I can't identify.  No visible data cable connector, no internal temperature probe, and most certainly no fluid connections for circulating a fluid for heat distribution.  The Chevy Volt and all Teslas have a much more advanced thermal management, and it seems to be essential to operate an EV in my climate.

I might guess what's installed in your Leaf's nordic package, but it looks like just an air space heater.  If you know better than me (you probably do) then a pointer to more technical information would be enjoyed greatly. Far too often I am presented with the "california" specifications for all cars (this isn't just an EV beef - every car sold in Canada is optimized for California). 

In another manner of challenging your assumptions, it is not possible for me to walk into a Nissan dealership and get helpful answers about the Leaf.  I have tried.  Nobody there knows anything.  I've had the same experience with a Chevrolet dealership.  So I am very frustrated by this - I can't get up close and personal with these things to understand what any of them are about, without going to greater much lengths than I would normally do to get acquainted with a regular gasoline car before buying.  If I want to test drive a Leaf, the dealership has to order one from another city transported on a truck to my city.

To remove another point of potential confusion about what I mean about winter: space heaters and seat heaters are 2nd-priority issues for winter operation of an electric vehicle, not 1st priority.  First priority is: can the car leave the driveway?

[Simen]

Hi Simen,

Your experience driving an EV in winter in Norway is about as close as I can get to reliable testimony.  Anything you can tell me will be valuable.

 
I'll do my best...

First, i'll answer your points in short;

Traction - I have old, partly worn winter tires, so i won't brag, but with the anti-spin in combination with the Eco mode, there's rarely any uncontrolled slipping. The last few hilly kilometers up to my cabin, i usually use chains on the tires in snowy conditions, and i can manage up to 6-7 inches of snow in the road before coming to a halt...

Braking - There are 3 'modes' of regen braking on my Leaf; very light regen with Eco mode off, better regen in Eco Mode, and significant regen braking when the Drive mode are set in 'Brake' ((I've seen up to 35 kW regen) Mostly used on long downhill roads, but can be used actively to avoid touching the brake pedal at all). On snowy/icy downhills, i avoid the 'brake' mode completely, and i usually turn off Eco mode...
Oh, i forgot; the ABS kicks in pretty early, and works very fast/actively.

Handling - The car is well balanced, so i experience no over or under steering

Hill-climbing - With 107 Hp and a torque of 187 i've never experienced any problems at all (the newest leaf have 147 Hp and a torque of 236). Though, hills uses much more power than on the plain...

Torque-steer - If you slam the speed in, and turn the steering wheel (as to change a lane) at the same time, you will probably slip, due to the instant torque of the electric motor - even at 55 mph... But i haven't experienced any steering due to acceleration, if that's what you mean...

I'm not sure what's in the Leaf battery, but I can't see much thermal control either hot or cold.  Each battery cell is a "cake pan" sized metal box with only 2 electrodes and a third electrode that I can't identify.  No visible data cable connector, no internal temperature probe, and most certainly no fluid connections for circulating a fluid for heat distribution.  The Chevy Volt and all Teslas have a much more advanced thermal management, and it seems to be essential to operate an EV in my climate.

I might guess what's installed in your Leaf's nordic package, but it looks like just an air space heater.  If you know better than me (you probably do) then a pointer to more technical information would be enjoyed greatly. Far too often I am presented with the "california" specifications for all cars (this isn't just an EV beef - every car sold in Canada is optimized for California). 

First; each 'metal box' as you see them, are actually 2 cells in series, thus the third electrode. There are 3 temperature probes placed around the battery.
And the Nordic package - or the 'Cold Weather Pack' (CWS) as it's known elsewhere as i've just learned; consists of electric heated side mirrors, steering wheel, front and rear seats, and hot air ducts to the rear. in addition, from mid-2013 models, a heat pump became the standard, except on the base model.

Regarding thermal management of the battery; the only addition i know of that come with the Nordic package, are electric heat pads around the battery packs that kicks in if the temperature falls below minus 17 degrees Celsius. this is mostly to protect the cells during normal charge, i think. The computer regulates down the regen power, fast charge etc. in really cold (and hot?) temperatures.

In another manner of challenging your assumptions, it is not possible for me to walk into a Nissan dealership and get helpful answers about the Leaf.  I have tried.  Nobody there knows anything.  I've had the same experience with a Chevrolet dealership.  So I am very frustrated by this - I can't get up close and personal with these things to understand what any of them are about, without going to greater much lengths than I would normally do to get acquainted with a regular gasoline car before buying.  If I want to test drive a Leaf, the dealership has to order one from another city transported on a truck to my city.

That might be due to the US car industry/dealers attitude to electric cars in general?

To remove another point of potential confusion about what I mean about winter: space heaters and seat heaters are 2nd-priority issues for winter operation of an electric vehicle, not 1st priority.  First priority is: can the car leave the driveway?

Yes.
At least, i have no problem. Of course, with below zero temps, maybe some sleet in the road, the driving range can fall up to a third compared to warmer weather... I usually get 7.5 km/kWh in the summer, and around 5-6 km/kWh during the winter...

For fun; here's a couple of years old winter test of the 5 most popular EV's in Norway (except Tesla)...

Edit;
I haven't found any proper documentation for you, but if i do, i'll post it here...

[SparWeb]

That's tremendous - thank you Simen!

In winter, there seems to be a 20-30% penalty to the range, across all of the cars tested.  This is no surprise, but finally, somebody actually measured and compared!  It doesn't seem to adversely affect the Leaf more than any of the others.  The choice to Not pre-heat the cabins before some legs of the trip was very interesting.

A Tesla would have been an interesting contender in this lineup.  The article does not explain why it was excluded, whether Tesla did not offer a vehicle, or the authors wanted to shine light on other options, or some other reason.

[SparWeb]

In another manner of challenging your assumptions, it is not possible for me to walk into a Nissan dealership and get helpful answers about the Leaf.  I have tried.  Nobody there knows anything.  I've had the same experience with a Chevrolet dealership.  So I am very frustrated by this - I can't get up close and personal with these things to understand what any of them are about, without going to greater much lengths than I would normally do to get acquainted with a regular gasoline car before buying.  If I want to test drive a Leaf, the dealership has to order one from another city transported on a truck to my city.

That might be due to the US car industry/dealers attitude to electric cars in general?

It's macho BS, is what it is!

[Simen]

A Tesla would have been an interesting contender in this lineup.  The article does not explain why it was excluded, whether Tesla did not offer a vehicle, or the authors wanted to shine light on other options, or some other reason.

The test included only 'mid-range' cars in terms pf price, i think - these cars costs between $25k.- and $35k.-, while a Tesla are twice as much (at least). In Norway, BEV's are excluded Vat and most other taxes, in addition to free parking and free toll-road passing. All this to promote the changeover to an all-electric fleet. I think the government have decided that from 2025, all new cars sold have to be BEV's. (Hybrids might be included...)

[MattM]

Those tax breaks move money from the taxpayer to the manufacturer.  Natural market forces are a better indicator of what is the best method to travel.  Like RE is much more expensive than grid power, EV travel is similar.  I'll switch to EV when it is good for my personal interests.  So far I just am not seeing the big picture being an improvement without a subsidy that is shifting wealth against our national interests.

[jlsoaz]

I completed the process of getting the Tesla last week by finally receiving the more permanent plates and registration in the mail and affixing them to the car.  That's about 3 months of back-and-forth with a state motor vehicle department, my bank, and the seller to get things straightened out, and I'm now carrying a big debt, but it is done.  I do regret my testiness in responding to one of the points here a few weeks ago, and I apologize.

On other matters, I've had two problems with the vehicle so far that both necessitated local Tesla service center visits and lost time, but were covered under warranty, so that's good, and the service center was professional and did the job.  Clearly I'm not a DIY kind of person, and so that is different from a lot of the people here, but I think there is room for all of us in these things.

on a separate but related note, some of the DIY people here might enjoy a youtube channel called "Rich Rebuilds", if they have not already known about him.  He has been living in the US State of Massachusetts and taking advantage of some "right to repair" laws there to repair Teslas and other vehicles on his own.  He has done a wonderful job of irritating an awful lot of Tesla/Musk fans/sycophants, which has been a big part of why I like to watch his humorous videos, even if I am clueless about the repair-the-vehicle part of things.

[SparWeb]

Congratulations on the new vehicle.  I hope it's as fun as they say it is.