Motorbike stator winding done wrong?

[TechAdmin]

Hello! I'm gonna post here not as an admin but rather as a very very newbie user compared to everyone else, so please be gentle with me, I love electricity but I am not an expert in this particular area

So I had a stator (3 phases) for my motorbike that shorted. The stator is connected to a voltage regulator which is also a converter from AC to DC, which then connects to the battery.
I got a new voltage regulator on top of stator because I thought it was gone along with the stator (which was clearly burnt).
After I got this new voltage regulator and plugged everything correctly, the battery still wouldn't charge... I got the stator regenerated by someone rather than buying the original one, but I start to suspect it to be the real issue, since I sent the regulator back for testing and it tested fine.
The engine obviously works so the thingy powering the stator up works fine, along with the battery itself (tested 2 different ones).
I tested each phase of the stator and they were all giving very similar results both for resistance and voltage... Resistance was very low (0.4/0.5 Ohm), whereas voltage could reach over 60V/70V AC by revving the engine up (it's a 1000cc sportsbike rocket).
I also bypassed all the bike cables (straight from voltage regulator to battery) to avoid any chances of it being a dispersion somewhere else, so I am quite positive by now that it's the stator being faulty and repaired badly.
Do you guys have any ideas? Sorry if I am such a newbie once again and thanks in advance for any input!

[SparWeb]

Hi
A few questions before I can point to anything for sure.

Does your stator have a high voltage and low voltage windings?  Or just one set of windings?

Do you have a multimeter with a diode test setting?

You've checked the stator AC output enough that, for now, let's say the stator is good.  The regulator is my next place to look.  After that, check for good grounds.

[TechAdmin]

Hi
A few questions before I can point to anything for sure.

Does your stator have a high voltage and low voltage windings?  Or just one set of windings?

I think it's just one set, 3 phases with one cable each wound up a billion times... I do have a picture somewhere...

Here, this was the older one and obviously shorted. Newer one isn't much different design-wise, just obviously... Not burnt

Do you have a multimeter with a diode test setting?

I do have a multimeter with diode test setting I did test all 3 phases and none of them are shorted to one another or to the ground (bike hull). I can actually link you the tests:

Unfortunately it's in Italian, and at the time I was sure it was in working condition but heh...

You've checked the stator AC output enough that, for now, let's say the stator is good.  The regulator is my next place to look.  After that, check for good grounds.

The point is just that, I had the regulator shipped back to the guy who sold it to me for testing, he tested it and works perfectly fine (yes it's the same, I had marked it). I only have the original one at hand right now, which I had thought to be broken but since the newer one didn't work either it left me in this "what?!" condition.

I had also made custom cables to connect directly the regulator to the battery, bypassing all sorts of bike circuits and eliminating possible dispersion chances. Those cables were also tested and fine...

Also thanks for the reply, everyone involved is clueless at the moment. Myself, workshop mechanics, regulator seller, stator seller.

[SparWeb]

OK, I see your AC tests from the stator, and your friend was holding the RPM's pretty constant all 3 times and you saw about the same AC voltage on each phase.  So I'd say the stator's good.

Moving to the regulator, set your meter to its diode test setting.  On some meters you may have to move the leads to other connection sockets. You'll figure it out.  Test each phase to positive, and each phase to negative.  If you don't know which way is which, then reverse the leads and do those tests again.  Also, switch to resistance and test continuity from each phase to positive and each phase to negative.  That's about 18 separate checks.  If you know exactly what you're doing and have everything neatly diagrammed out, then you don't have to waste time on some of these checks and cut the list down to 9.  If you haven't tested a VR before, then I'm basically telling you to measure everything and anything, even the pointless combinations.  If you can write down all of the results I can sort it out later.

[TechAdmin]

OK, I see your AC tests from the stator, and your friend was holding the RPM's pretty constant all 3 times and you saw about the same AC voltage on each phase.  So I'd say the stator's good.

That was actually my mother

Moving to the regulator, set your meter to its diode test setting.  On some meters you may have to move the leads to other connection sockets. You'll figure it out.  Test each phase to positive, and each phase to negative.  If you don't know which way is which, then reverse the leads and do those tests again.  Also, switch to resistance and test continuity from each phase to positive and each phase to negative.  That's about 18 separate checks.  If you know exactly what you're doing and have everything neatly diagrammed out, then you don't have to waste time on some of these checks and cut the list down to 9.  If you haven't tested a VR before, then I'm basically telling you to measure everything and anything, even the pointless combinations.  If you can write down all of the results I can sort it out later.

The problem is I have done I think all of these for both regulators, new and old. New one test video is here:

still wouldn't work on my bike. The one in the video is the seller's bike, but the battery does charge... (Standard 12v battery, fully charged roughly 13.1, while charging it should be about 14v as in the video, mine stays below 13 at all times).

I'll still do what you ask probably tomorrow, I'm sort of busy with a crazy big board work (1.6m+ posts) as of late but trying to get stuff done too. Thanks again for your help so far!

[MagnetJuice]

The tests that you have done shows that the stator is good and the regulator is also good.

If it charged the other bike’s battery, it should charge yours.

You said that you tried 2 different batteries.

It looks like the voltage from the regulator is not reaching the battery or there is a short somewhere in the wiring that is draining the battery.

I would remove the battery from the bike and connect the regulator output straight to the battery and see if it charges.

If the battery charges when connected straight to the regulator, you need to check the wiring.

Ed

[TechAdmin]

The tests that you have done shows that the stator is good and the regulator is also good.

If it charged the other bike’s battery, it should charge yours.

You said that you tried 2 different batteries.

It looks like the voltage from the regulator is not reaching the battery or there is a short somewhere in the wiring that is draining the battery.

I would remove the battery from the bike and connect the regulator output straight to the battery and see if it charges.

That's what I had done and what the direct cables I mentioned were for - to bypass any sort of shorts/draining/sorcery I can't start the engine without the battery so I could only try to charge the second one while the first one powers the engine up if that's what you meant. Messy, but could do.

If the battery charges when connected straight to the regulator, you need to check the wiring.

Guess I'll re-do the wiring once more but it wasn't charging with my wires nor the bikes ones

Still, thanks for your input as well!

[JW]

I like this stuff

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=129241.0

[JW]

AHaaaa Ha.....

I found the missing pictures from the other post

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,129125.msg977195.html#msg977195

[TechAdmin]

That's great stuff but I don't think they can help me with my stator/regulator/"whatever the heck it is I don't know anymore" problem

[JW]

So I had a stator (3 phases) for my motorbike that shorted. The stator is connected to a voltage regulator which is also a converter from AC to DC, which then connects to the battery.

We need a schematic for the rectifier 

Replace both they are not user serviceable

[TechAdmin]

We need a schematic for the rectifier 

Not a chance, companies which make these don't release them, and they're absolutely sealed

Replace both they are not user serviceable

Did you read the whole topic though? I did, that's why I'm asking...

[JW]

Did you read the whole topic though? I did, that's why I'm asking..

you got me there

I have several of these diagrams

[JW]

That's what I had done and what the direct cables I mentioned were for - to bypass any sort of shorts/draining/sorcery I can't start the engine without the battery

Bingo! once I saw that stator I knew what was going on. You see the stator has a magneto coil and cannot have 3phase harmonics. Most likely the generator/alt is single phase. The diagrams I have can teach about the magneto.

Let me know the year make and model of your bike I can get the actual diagrams for you. 

[TechAdmin]

The stock stator has 3 phases so it's definitely correct to have 3 It's a Kawasaki Ninja ZX-10R 2008, the old regulator is a stock shunt one I think, whereas the newer one is a Shindengen 775AA.

I could not do the tests today, been working all day on a forum that is really enormous and hired me for a LOT of work, so I'm overworked just from that one job at the moment. I will try to find some time tomorrow.

[SparWeb]

I spent a minute looking for your new regulator specs.  I was hoping to narrow down the type of regulator it is - actually now I have about 6 possibilities looking at their website.  For some reason the website doesn't give the part number you wrote.  Instead of going mad about stuff from certain places in the world, could you please instead tell me everything you can possibly think is relevant about that regulator.  I can help you troubleshoot the reg but only if I know if it has plain rectifiers, MOSFETS, and how many combinations of each.  And everything else you have about it.  What made you think it's appropriate to your bike?  Did it come with a piece of paper?  Diagram? Install manual?

[TechAdmin]

I spent a minute looking for your new regulator specs.  I was hoping to narrow down the type of regulator it is - actually now I have about 6 possibilities looking at their website.  For some reason the website doesn't give the part number you wrote.  Instead of going mad about stuff from certain places in the world, could you please instead tell me everything you can possibly think is relevant about that regulator.  I can help you troubleshoot the reg but only if I know if it has plain rectifiers, MOSFETS, and how many combinations of each.  And everything else you have about it.  What made you think it's appropriate to your bike?  Did it come with a piece of paper?  Diagram? Install manual?

I got it off here: https://www.sh775.it/home/21-nuovo-sh775aa-regolatore-di-tensione-shindengen-originale.html
Some guy went nuts about explaining why these regulators are the best and made some insane explanation in here: https://www.belinassu.it/396108572 there ARE some kind of diagrams over there. It is unfortunately in Italian but Google Translate should very much help with that, and diagrams should be readable.
Mind you this is for the NEW regulator, which I currently do NOT have at hand and is the one that was tested in the 2nd video I posted.
I did finally manage to grab my regulator and cables off my garage as well but my home tester decided to show me a middle finger and I have to resolder the tester itself... I have another one in the garage (the orange one) although a bit hard to go there once again.

[SparWeb]

OK.
Most of the pictures are still swimming across the atlantic ocean so I'll stand by for when they get here.  The ones that did fly across quickly are - uhh - your word: insane - is than an X-ray scan??

Anyway it doesn't narrow down the part number you have to any specific internal architechture.  Need to know if it's SCR, Mosfet, or plain dumb rectifier to know what the pins need to turn the thing ON.

[Mary B]

OK.
Most of the pictures are still swimming across the atlantic ocean so I'll stand by for when they get here.  The ones that did fly across quickly are - uhh - your word: insane - is than an X-ray scan??

Anyway it doesn't narrow down the part number you have to any specific internal architechture.  Need to know if it's SCR, Mosfet, or plain dumb rectifier to know what the pins need to turn the thing ON.

SCR from the looks of it..

[SparWeb]

Thanks Mary.  Any link back to where that came from?  We could be looking for what they mean by "the voltage set point can be changed as required". 
How is that accomplished with only 5 pins and a sealed overmolding?

[TechAdmin]

It's on the belinassu page I posted, somewhere in the page, can't link directly because it has no image ID so you do have to scroll I'm afraid.

[SparWeb]

OK.  That's cleared up some things.  You still need to expect to do a lot of steps to test it.  With no battery, the controller will be off and the SCR's will be off.  Testing with no power on the battery would only be able to show if one of the SCR's has shorted out.  They should read as disconnected, either as high resistance or "0" on the diode test setting of your meter.

[TechAdmin]

I could connect it to a pc PSU with 12V to power it up, it's the same voltage as the battery, perhaps a touch lower *thinking*. But yeah, here at home I only have the older regulator, I finally managed to grab it from the garage but work and depression are getting in the way.

[SparWeb]

I'm not sure why you need a PC power supply.  That might cause unusual things to happen depending on how you use it.  I was assuming you will have (a) motorbike (b) alternator (c) regulator (d) battery, all put together the way they are supposed to be put together, and test with (e) multimeter.  For a helpful comparison, you could also try to have both the old and new regulator to swap during your tests.
You also have the thought of getting your bike back on the road, to look forward to!

[JW]

That must be it- the SCR's allow the magneto to operate, In one of my very old posts we could never justify using SCR for the rectifier on the 3 phase stator used in mills.

[TechAdmin]

OK, I see your AC tests from the stator, and your friend was holding the RPM's pretty constant all 3 times and you saw about the same AC voltage on each phase.  So I'd say the stator's good.

Moving to the regulator, set your meter to its diode test setting.  On some meters you may have to move the leads to other connection sockets. You'll figure it out.  Test each phase to positive, and each phase to negative.  If you don't know which way is which, then reverse the leads and do those tests again.  Also, switch to resistance and test continuity from each phase to positive and each phase to negative.  That's about 18 separate checks.  If you know exactly what you're doing and have everything neatly diagrammed out, then you don't have to waste time on some of these checks and cut the list down to 9.  If you haven't tested a VR before, then I'm basically telling you to measure everything and anything, even the pointless combinations.  If you can write down all of the results I can sort it out later.

On phone in the garage and I realize I just can't follow you there...
The regulator no longer has 3 phases at its output, it outputs (or should) just 14v dc. How am I supposed to test phases like that? I can only test the stator phases that way...
Also, direct cables wiring has been triple checked and works... I even tried to pull just in case.

Also what the actual fv(k... I tried to connect it again and start it... It charged to 15v for about 10 seconds then it stopped working entirely and dropped to battery voltage.

I want to throw it off a cliff, and I love it, but this is the amount of pain, stress and frustration it's causing me

[TechAdmin]

This regulator fails these tests in numerous fields, so it's most definitely gone, yet it worked for a bit... The other one that I don't have here works fine but didn't work on my bike... I'm more wtf by the minute...

[SparWeb]

Hello
Puzzling indeed.

I'm sure your meter isn't the Kawasaki testing tool - maybe that makes a difference, but who can tell?
I tried looking up the Kawasaki meter - damn it looks just like the Radio Shack meter I bought in the 1980's.

I found an English version of the Kawasaki manual (though I have the Italian figured out by now)
http://www.kawninja.net/regulator_rectifier_inspection-735.html

It looks like you are using a digital meter.  Does your meter have a diode setting?  What is the part number of your meter?

[TechAdmin]

I've upgraded my meter as well since the video, because one of the 2 measuring cables of my home meter (I have 2, in the garage, permanently, other one at home) broke off and since the soldering was garbage I just bought a new one, and upgraded.

So yeah it does have everything and more than the other ones if necessary. As for part number no clue, this thing got nothing useful written on the back lmao, just says it complies with standards yadda yadda and not to be an idiot by dumping it into the fire

I am tempted to ask the guy who sold me the new rectifier (and still has it over there) to test the rectifier according to the Kawasaki table, if values are off I guess it's somehow not compatible with my circuit?

Those 10 seconds of the whole thing working, however, did in fact prove that the coil is fine, or it wouldn't have done that. And so is the battery. So that did identify the guilty bit, which is an enormous stress relief already.

EDIT: Here's the full manual in English if you need it, it's generally hard to find because it's the workshop manual, not the regular users' manual they give you: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HYaPskVuF85rK9kVemorB6qPCofXOonO/view?usp=sharing
You'll find the test I posted above on page 581, aka section 16-33.

[TechAdmin]

Here's the full manual in English if you need it, it's generally hard to find because it's the workshop manual, not the regular users' manual they give you: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HYaPskVuF85rK9kVemorB6qPCofXOonO/view?usp=sharing
You'll find the test I posted above on page 581, aka section 16-33.

[SparWeb]

It doesn't have a diode test setting that I can see, and being digital its internal circuit may not respond to a circuit that already has a diode in it.  Without know more about the guts inside the analog meter that Kawasaki specifies, and the digital meter you have, I would not expect the same results, even testing a good regulator.

Look at this one (just a random example).  See the symbol that looks like this   --|>|-- 

[TechAdmin]

My diode setting is exactly where the meter is pointing at, in the image, in orange font Usually the mighty Kawasaki tools are basically the same stuff you can find everywhere, it tells you to do stuff which is very debatable too. Given it says to set it to 1k ohms and I have the 2k setting I would have expected to get half of the values but I got totally absent values where I should have had them, especially on the BK bit.

[JW]

Hi Flavio

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150320.msg1054920.html#msg1054920

I see two burned out coils there.