Motorbike stator winding done wrong?

[TechAdmin]

It's a very recurring failure on this model, the most frequent I should say, both the stator and the regulator are extremely prone to fail. Kind of why I wanted to improve the system with the better regulator but I guess I'll just stick to these bad ones

I'd say the stator burnt out due to sheer fatigue, and regulator followed up for whatever reason. When it happened, I was in the middle of the road, instruments, lights and all electrical equipment shut off all of a sudden except for the engine that was running fine. I thought it must have been some kind of static electricity that reached the battery, so the best idea would have been to simply restart it... Curse me when I shut it off, battery was dead by then, 2.5km uphill pushing with a 200kg bike, took no less than 3 hours during which it also started to rain. I guess what had happened was in fact the regulator blew, and stator along with it or was already broken and half working while shorted, damaging the regulator without my knowledge.
The morale is I did buy a voltmeter, a tiny one but still. I'll have to figure out where to splice the cables to attach it to the system without connecting it directly to the battery (so it wouldn't drain it), but that's another story.

[Mary B]

Maybe go over the schematic and see if it can be fused to stop burnout. That way of the regulator goes, and I suspect it is the weak link, it doesn't burn the stator too. Maybe fuse all 3 phases off the stator...

[TechAdmin]

That only adds more resistance and exacerbates the problem by the looks of it I researched it a bit but nobody did that...

Also ETA 1 week for the new regulator.

[Mary B]

A fuse should not offer enough resistance to even measure without expansive lab grade equipment...

[TechAdmin]

But it adds more spots prone to heating and potentially failing, also no idea what kind of fuse to put there either, I only know it goes up to roughly 60/70V AC but could be more under certain circumstances (aka track day). Figure there's a reason nobody does that, other than space issues @_@ engine heat and severe vibrations are also a factor.

About heat again... It could melt stain soldering I reckon, given the amount of current that goes through those cables...?

[JW]

Why cant you guys quit messing with details and do a blanket repair...;;.

Replace the stator and module and inspect the wiring harness for a short in a conductor.

If it blows again reinspect the wiring harness. Sounds like your going to have to accept a few burn outz. Needing a new m9odule each time 

[TechAdmin]

I'm just gonna ignore that until you re-read what I've already done so far.

[JW]

What im talking about is common sense. Heres an example. when your messing around with SCR's or mosfets they can fail for a number things. You guys have flip-d to the 5 step and you cant get off of step one.

[TechAdmin]

Well excuse me if "Chug another one in and hope it doesn't blow" is NOT a viable approach for me!

[JW]

Flavio, we need put this topic down for now. The problem is that the components required by your OEM solidstate are not generic.... this as what we use here.

WE ARE OFF TOPIC. nevertheless you are an admin and you have all of our support  Theres stuff that you do we have no idea.

[TechAdmin]

It's definitely on hold until I put the new regulator in (and have to wait for it to arrive), I'm really stressed out because of this and I absolutely hope it will work...

[TechAdmin]

Put the regulator in, it charged... 15v or so, the moment I tried to rev the engine up to 3000rpm or so, it went to 15.5v and then... 12.4v again. Tested the new regulator, doesn't look broken or anything.
And we're back to the original question... Is it the damn stator outputting so much current that the regulator can only handle it at low rpm?
Honestly I want to die right now, if I had an off switch I'd press it, I'm so fv(king done.

[DamonHD]

I have no technical info to offer, only my sympathies.  Hang in there.

It'll be obvious later whatever it is that is a mystery at the moment, I suspect!

Rgds

Damon

[Mary B]

Put the regulator in, it charged... 15v or so, the moment I tried to rev the engine up to 3000rpm or so, it went to 15.5v and then... 12.4v again. Tested the new regulator, doesn't look broken or anything.
And we're back to the original question... Is it the damn stator outputting so much current that the regulator can only handle it at low rpm?
Honestly I want to die right now, if I had an off switch I'd press it, I'm so fv(king done.

It should be matched to the stator... are you positive the battery is good? A weak cell that is shorting when max charge current hits and un-shorts when it cools? 15.5 at the battery is high... like it wasn't regulating.

[TechAdmin]

Put the regulator in, it charged... 15v or so, the moment I tried to rev the engine up to 3000rpm or so, it went to 15.5v and then... 12.4v again. Tested the new regulator, doesn't look broken or anything.
And we're back to the original question... Is it the damn stator outputting so much current that the regulator can only handle it at low rpm?
Honestly I want to die right now, if I had an off switch I'd press it, I'm so fv(king done.

It should be matched to the stator... are you positive the battery is good? A weak cell that is shorting when max charge current hits and un-shorts when it cools? 15.5 at the battery is high... like it wasn't regulating.

Max voltage should be 15.2v according to the manual... The regulator is brand new, made for this bike even though not OEM.
Current battery is from last year (pretty much new), from one of the best brands, Yuasa and it's currently slowly charging at home at 1.0A.
My old battery seems to be fubar, it was marking 7.5v, then 3.3v while charging. Will see if I can bring that back to serviceable for testing but no guarantees...

Something I was thinking about earlier... When I tested the broken regulator, I used direct cables to the battery, so I effectively bypassed the shorted ground pin, which is why it ALSO worked for about 10 seconds, just like this one.
The new regulator was tested with full bike cables instead, not with the direct battery shortcut ones. I didn't have the heart to try those as well.

I have no technical info to offer, only my sympathies.  Hang in there.

It'll be obvious later whatever it is that is a mystery at the moment, I suspect!

Rgds

Damon

And I appreciate it nonetheless, really. This is one of the darkest moments in my life, so thank you.

[JW]

I will be sending you some money soon, just about got the CD project ready to send to you.

[mab]

Oh dear, this is a confusing fault:

I'm assuming that when you rewound the stator did you use a similar size of wire and similar number of turns? I'm still thinking the stator's OK.

the fact that it's going to 15v shows that the stator and rectifiers are doing their job; that it goes up to  >15.2v suggests that the regulator part isn't!

Going back to the diode tests done on the BK/G wire on the bike:- I asked you to test with the +ve lead to the BK/G wire and the -ve to chassis and it should give a reading >0.0v (0.0v would indicate a short to chassis:- you said it did come out as >0.0v).

Thinking again, I should perhaps have asked you what the actual reading was? It should be a diode (0.5 to 0.7v) plus the resistance of relay 2 (headlight relay coil - maybe 0.1 to 0.4v, I guess), plus relay 5* (starter relay coil - maybe 0.1v or less, I guess), so perhaps about 1.0v total at a guess, but quite a lot more than the  >0.0 I originally suggested you look for (in my defence i was looking for a direct short, sorry).

* Just to be clear: NOT relay 5 - relay 5 in the relay box is the starter circuit relay (used to operate the main starter relay), but the relay in series with the headlight relay (2) is the main starter motor relay itself.

The reason i'm asking this is that I think the regulator works similar to a car regulator in that there's actually a 2nd small +ve bridge rectifier in the regulator in addition to the main one that charges the battery; this 2nd rectifier feeds the control cct and the BK/G terminal. If it is overloaded this will pull down the voltage the control cct 'sees' , allowing the battery voltage to rise too much until the overloaded 2nd rectifiers fail.

The other thing i note is that you couldn't pull relay 2? - I'm wondering if it's coil is cooked and it's melted into its socket? If so it might still work (as in turn on the headlights) but is pulling too much current and frying the regulator?

Sorry, this is all a bit speculative and I hope I'm not sending you after wild geese, but something's wrong somewhere.

[TechAdmin]

Oh dear, this is a confusing fault:

You tell me...

I'm assuming that when you rewound the stator did you use a similar size of wire and similar number of turns? I'm still thinking the stator's OK.

I'm gonna hit you with a not really there. The regenerated one looks quite a lot different from the original one, visually at least. I'll see if I can remove it to take a picture because I only took a picture of the burnt one.
I didn't do that job, there's a company that does this which did it for me.

the fact that it's going to 15v shows that the stator and rectifiers are doing their job; that it goes up to  >15.2v suggests that the regulator part isn't!

But the regulator is NEW, came today. Should I call the guy who sent me again only to find out it works like the previous one I sent back? I start to look stupid now, I am really really thinking about sending the stator back at this point.

Going back to the diode tests done on the BK/G wire on the bike:- I asked you to test with the +ve lead to the BK/G wire and the -ve to chassis and it should give a reading >0.0v (0.0v would indicate a short to chassis:- you said it did come out as >0.0v).

Thinking again, I should perhaps have asked you what the actual reading was? It should be a diode (0.5 to 0.7v) plus the resistance of relay 2 (headlight relay coil - maybe 0.1 to 0.4v, I guess), plus relay 5* (starter relay coil - maybe 0.1v or less, I guess), so perhaps about 1.0v total at a guess, but quite a lot more than the  >0.0 I originally suggested you look for (in my defence i was looking for a direct short, sorry).

* Just to be clear: NOT relay 5 - relay 5 in the relay box is the starter circuit relay (used to operate the main starter relay), but the relay in series with the headlight relay (2) is the main starter motor relay itself.

The reason i'm asking this is that I think the regulator works similar to a car regulator in that there's actually a 2nd small +ve bridge rectifier in the regulator in addition to the main one that charges the battery; this 2nd rectifier feeds the control cct and the BK/G terminal. If it is overloaded this will pull down the voltage the control cct 'sees' , allowing the battery voltage to rise too much until the overloaded 2nd rectifiers fail.

Yeah it was like 1.1 or so, it wasn't just barely above 0 indeed.

The other thing i note is that you couldn't pull relay 2? - I'm wondering if it's coil is cooked and it's melted into its socket? If so it might still work (as in turn on the headlights) but is pulling too much current and frying the regulator?

No they all test fine, I just can't pull the plug, they made absolutely sure of that when they built it. Pliers, spanners, nothing.

something's wrong somewhere.

Yes, and once I find out what it is, I will hit it with an hammer until I can't find the smallest bit of it anymore.

@Mary B new battery charged successfully from 12.4V to 13.0V in a few hours at 1.0A. Old battery is dead, it's at 0.00V now (I couldn't believe it, but it is).

I will be sending you some money soon, just about got the CD project ready to send to you.

I saw the email too... Professionally speaking I am fine, but I am obviously mentally unstable as never before. If I disappear well, thanks for everything. Don't want to sound like a pessimist kid crying for attention but really the thoughts in my mind are basically 90% about self harm atm, so I don't want to candy coat it and telling you yeah I'll do everything because I may very well not. Obviously the bike is not my only issue, even though it definitely doesn't help - just think that in order to be able to test the new regulator I was sweating cold and that was after taking some tranquilizers already, that's the amount of stress I am dealing with right there.

[JW]

Professionally speaking I am fine, but I am obviously mentally unstable as never before.

PPBBBBPPBBBB

Haaa! just ask these guys and me about that.

The thing with the website needs to be done first, and should be unstressful for you. I will delete the 30,000 emails, just want to get that cut off. I was doing some stuff with the host bla bla bla, now that everything is fixed there hitting me full blast...

The CD thing yes that is very stressful. If I take all the risk yes im a Intellectual Property Expert. You would be a silent partner no liability for you. Like I said before this would be atleast a 3 month project. in the end I will have a revenue stream from it and in the long term you would get a cut forever. I will lay everything out, I want to knock off alot of the features so no one could do anything about it were not going to copy it.. But we need to figure out the security feature... From there its easy street.

Notorious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yx1B1Ee8EA

Flavio you would be surprised of all the potential work you could do for others here. Just make a channel/topic for it, than you can review confidentially of needs. Look there are more and more users here as time goes on, its not just the current users.


 

[TechAdmin]

Professionally speaking I am fine, but I am obviously mentally unstable as never before.

PPBBBBPPBBBB

Haaa! just ask these guys and me about that.

The thing with the website needs to be done first, and should be unstressful for you. I will delete the 30,000 emails, just want to get that cut off. I was doing some stuff with the host bla bla bla, now that everything is fixed there hitting me full blast...

Nah no worries, it's not particularly stressful to do your stuff. I'd have told you otherwise.

The CD thing yes that is very stressful. If I take all the risk yes im a Intellectual Property Expert. You would be a silent partner no liability for you. Like I said before this would be atleast a 3 month project. in the end I will have a revenue stream from it and in the long term you would get a cut forever. I will lay everything out, I want to knock off alot of the features so no one could do anything about it were not going to copy it.. But we need to figure out the security feature... From there its easy street.

Well still not stressful either, it's not a factor yet. Will be, but I guess let's keep it outta here

Notorious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yx1B1Ee8EA

Nice one!

Flavio you would be surprised of all the potential work you could do for others here. Just make a channel/topic for it, than you can review confidentially of needs. Look there are more and more users here as time goes on, its not just the current users.

I mean if people have websites to fix or stuff to do in general, sure, they can just PM me, I don't bite. Worst case scenario I'll simply say no I can't because X or Y.

Tried to keep this thread as clear as possible from my personal issues but I felt like people kinda deserve to know why I may sound a bit "hectic" or "weird" at times, or if I disappear I don't want to be the guy who asks for help and doesn't even thank back when others kindly offer potential solutions.

So back on topic, I'll post a picture of the new stator as soon as I can, so we can compare it to the old one. They do look different, the new one doesn't have a thick coating for example, whereas the older one did.

[JW]

One thing about the security feature "they forgot how it works" I tried like hell to get them to unlock it but they cant money or nothing>

We can use that so that users have to contact me and they can get it unlock if they change computers etc. The beauty is that no one can make operational clones... I understand why/how this works, done some homework "missing code word" Im sure you could do it.

Garbage - Stupid Girl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GhPUAVgHZc

Garbage - Only Happy When It Rains (Official Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpBFOJ3R0M4

[TechAdmin]

I'm... Destroyed, but here goes.

Broken stator from before


New stator images





This is not shorted or anything, but it does look a hell of a lot different...

And here's a video of the new regulator test:

It reached fkin 16v this time. I'm returning this pos for sure, no matter the setup it should NOT output 16v, ever.

[Mary B]

Wire size looks close to the same... but that new stator has 3 extra turns per coil if my count is accurate!

[TechAdmin]

Wire size looks close to the same... but that new stator has 3 extra turns per coil if my count is accurate!

At least, yes. I don't have more pics of the older one unfortunately.

I guess I'll have to return both. Regulator for pushing 16v, stator for being just simply overpowered and altering the system configuration to the point that it's not serviceable.

[mab]

We'll I've run out of wild geese to suggest.

The stator does look like 3 extra turns on the top layer, but I wonder if that's just to compensate for fewer turns than original on the lower layers? Hard to tell.

In theory if there are extra turns that should raise the open cct voltage but actually reduce the maximum current I think.

I can't think a few turns difference would affect the regulator that badly - it ought to work over part of the rev range and only lose it at the top end. I don't believe the phase sequence could matter, and if one phase was wired the wrong way (e.g. trident rather than star) it ought to have shown up on the voltage tests.

[TechAdmin]

The stator honestly looks well done, the guy has been doing it for a very long time... I'm... Clueless.

The regulator is surely not doing what it's supposed to be doing instead, but then again why would it charge for a while then stop then charge again and go over-voltage, the fk sense does this make...

[Bruce S]

TechAdmin;
I sure wish I had that here! I would grab the output(s) of the stator; let the bike run to make sure the outputs aren't fluctuating due to heat related issues. The do the same for the regulator.
Having the 3-extra windings could in theory cause a over-voltage issue, right along with heat related issues.
I would all but bet $$$ it's a combo issue, but would lean more towards the regulator.
Sorry, but I'm working on a raid 5 issue right now and can't go back and re-read if you replied with the Specs of the regulator.
Could you post those PLZ, if the stator is now outputting too high a voltage, it'll throw the regulator all out of whack.

Battery charging, regulators are supposed to bring the voltages up to a 13.8~~ along with high current (BUT you already know this). I have actually seen 160A alternators output 14.5Vdc to the battery just trying to check it up where it regulator wants it to be.

SOooo;
When you have the time, check the output voltage of the stator going into the regulator, see if it's above specs, if so let the people you got it from know this. IF it's in specs, leave it run until it gets heated up and see what's up with those voltages again.
It does at first appearances look okay, but one never knows.
IF it's playing nice nice throughout , then possibly do the same with the regulator.

I actually love, love , love getting these kind of problems. Keeps my troubleshooting skills tweaked 

Sorry if all of these steps have been done.
Did I say a Dell R720 and be a real &^%^(*% !! ??

Cheers
Bruce S


   

[TechAdmin]

On page 611 it shows the values that the stator should have...

It says 46V or higher at 4000rpm, I was over 60V at 3000rpm, I did post a video about... Here: https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150320.msg1054920.html#msg1054920
Expected resistance 0.1-0.2, I actually have 0.5-0.6 ohms, much higher.
EDIT: yes, seems higher than originally measured in the first post, this multimeter is probably more accurate (costs about twice as the other one, it's twice as big and has more stuff).

Regulator specs are nowhere to be found, not a single manufacturer releases those.

[JW]

Use the RMS feature on your meter, I believe the voltage discrepancy is explained by not considering RMS voltage (ac waveform)

We can get into regulator later, the headroom capability is there.

[TechAdmin]

The... What? Please

If you want parameters for the tester, manual says for 200V AC range, resolution is 100mV, Accuracy +-(0.8%+5).
Input impedance 10Mohms (yes, capital M).
Frequency range: 40Hz-400Hz.
Overload protection: 700V effective value/1000V continuous peak
Display: Average value response (the effective value of sine wave)

[JW]

This is like measuring voltage drop its a dynamic measurement. Once the regulator is cycling the SCR's are going to clip the waveform. Give me a minute to find the reference to RMS voltage. Others here know what RMS is.

[TechAdmin]

Here I can show you the mighty "special Kawasaki tester", which looks like a worse copy of my own

manual says to use that thing.
And no, there is not another picture available for it in the whole internet by the looks of it. An understandable one that is.

This is like measuring voltage drop its a dynamic measurement. Once the regulator is cycling the SCR's are going to clip the waveform.

No, wait.
The regulator was and must be disconnected for this test, otherwise how would I measure the 3 phases? Watch the video I posted...

[JW]

Here take look at this.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rms+voltage&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS910US910&oq=RMS+VOLTAGE&aqs=chrome.0.0l10.11997j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8