Author Topic: Build an inverter  (Read 2234 times)

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Astro

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Build an inverter
« on: October 11, 2021, 06:16:37 PM »
Been watching some videos on it. Anyone one done it? I am looking at inverters and they are not cheap when you want to get up there in watts. Can you stack any inverter? I have a line on some serious batteries and thought well geez, I could get the batteries, just charge them with a plug in charger/maintainer and get some inverters and have everything ready when I do build a mill. Plus have back up power if I needed it.
I hate trying to put things together when parts come up not in the order you need them, but when you are shopping for good deals, that is what you get.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2021, 02:59:07 AM »
Yes.

With 'Oztules' help in 2015 we created the 'OzInverter', i was the apprentice, now he leaves me to carry on the works. Published a 2nd edition book and produce the bare board PCB's.

48vdc, to 240vac or 120vac. 50HZ or 60HZ, Bi directional so can AC couple and back charge the batteries with any surplus AC.

6kW all day, 15kW for 15 minutes or so, surge up to 50kW.

NO toy, when finished weighs about 45kg/88lbs.

Its all here on this 'Fieldlines' site.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 03:15:30 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2021, 10:12:11 AM »
Yes.

With 'Oztules' help in 2015 we created the 'OzInverter', i was the apprentice, now he leaves me to carry on the works. Published a 2nd edition book and produce the bare board PCB's.

48vdc, to 240vac or 120vac. 50HZ or 60HZ, Bi directional so can AC couple and back charge the batteries with any surplus AC.

6kW all day, 15kW for 15 minutes or so, surge up to 50kW.

NO toy, when finished weighs about 45kg/88lbs.

Its all here on this 'Fieldlines' site.

YES. Where would I look for it on this site?
This sounds like exactly what I was thinking about, and not some 500 watt one. I was sitting here last night wondering what parts of a dc welder might be useful in such a larger scale undertaking. So a bigger one has been on my mind. But I am not a wise person when it comes to electronics. I know more then the avg person walking down the street, but compared to many on this site, I know very little.

Bruce S

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2021, 02:54:11 PM »
Do a search for ClockmanFRA probably in the control section.

https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148827.msg1035130.html#msg1035130

Here's a quick link to one of ClockmanFRA's posts.

Bruce S
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clockmanFRA

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2021, 03:48:10 PM »
Thanks Bruce.

Astro, Also look in the CONTROLS section of this forum for OzInverter.

Here is a Utub vid, done by my eldest for his Uni. I was tired, so not on good form. Also called the cables 50 and 70 amps, when i should have said, 70mm/2 cables for the Battery bank to the OzInverter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s9B3RTF1QA

Here is the torrid transformer chapter form the 2nd edition, and below the USA chapter and further assorted info. The 2nd edition book is 92 pages with hundreds of colour photos, drawings etc. Everything is explained.

* ToroidChapter4.pdf (901.88 kB - downloaded 166 times.)

* Chapter6USA.pdf (1094.47 kB - downloaded 78 times.)

* 2Supplement 60HZ 120vac.pdf (138.5 kB - downloaded 69 times.)




« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 04:00:04 PM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2021, 09:31:29 PM »
Seems like a guy needs to buy the book, get together a parts lists and where to source the parts from here in the US.
I have looked around more and found some China made inverters that are a little better price. I know you get what you pay for, but when you are looking at stacking 2-4 larger ones, it is going to get expensive if you are spending $1000 per inverter. I know I can add on as I go, but I am thinking of start up load if I wanted to put my fridge on the system. I have kind of planned it out a little and my fridge and freezer are on the wall that backs up to the garage. On the garage side of the wall there is floor to ceiling wood cabinets that someone built. Each has a 4ftx8ft sliding door. So it is a perfect place to put my battery bank and inverters and then a panel on the other side of the wall in the room with the fridge, freezer. So long story short I am going to need either a ton of little inverters or some bigger ones.

noneyabussiness

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2021, 02:30:57 AM »
just to add to this,  if you are going the DIY route , these control boards are practically bullet proof,  I've had one for several years and drawn 9.5 + KW at 48v for several hours at a time... I did upgrade the cooling system though and make sure you check the caps as mine they cheaped out and put 16v caps rather than 25v on it ( post regulator of course) ... they use the EG8010 chips as the oztules inverter that Clockman refers too..

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLWrt2E

just need a transformer and relevant cabling/ fans...

Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2021, 11:59:09 AM »
just to add to this,  if you are going the DIY route , these control boards are practically bullet proof,  I've had one for several years and drawn 9.5 + KW at 48v for several hours at a time... I did upgrade the cooling system though and make sure you check the caps as mine they cheaped out and put 16v caps rather than 25v on it ( post regulator of course) ... they use the EG8010 chips as the oztules inverter that Clockman refers too..

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mLWrt2E

just need a transformer and relevant cabling/ fans...

Now we are talking. What xformer would you recommend? I am thinking a 24 volt system for the purpose of a charge controller. And if I blow it up, I might need you to walk me through what capacitors to replace.

Mary B

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2021, 12:32:16 PM »
Seems like a guy needs to buy the book, get together a parts lists and where to source the parts from here in the US.
I have looked around more and found some China made inverters that are a little better price. I know you get what you pay for, but when you are looking at stacking 2-4 larger ones, it is going to get expensive if you are spending $1000 per inverter. I know I can add on as I go, but I am thinking of start up load if I wanted to put my fridge on the system. I have kind of planned it out a little and my fridge and freezer are on the wall that backs up to the garage. On the garage side of the wall there is floor to ceiling wood cabinets that someone built. Each has a 4ftx8ft sliding door. So it is a perfect place to put my battery bank and inverters and then a panel on the other side of the wall in the room with the fridge, freezer. So long story short I am going to need either a ton of little inverters or some bigger ones.

Look for ones that are dead, get them cheap... pull the transformers out, control board may be good too and might be compatible


Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2021, 12:54:27 PM »
Seems like a guy needs to buy the book, get together a parts lists and where to source the parts from here in the US.
I have looked around more and found some China made inverters that are a little better price. I know you get what you pay for, but when you are looking at stacking 2-4 larger ones, it is going to get expensive if you are spending $1000 per inverter. I know I can add on as I go, but I am thinking of start up load if I wanted to put my fridge on the system. I have kind of planned it out a little and my fridge and freezer are on the wall that backs up to the garage. On the garage side of the wall there is floor to ceiling wood cabinets that someone built. Each has a 4ftx8ft sliding door. So it is a perfect place to put my battery bank and inverters and then a panel on the other side of the wall in the room with the fridge, freezer. So long story short I am going to need either a ton of little inverters or some bigger ones.

Look for ones that are dead, get them cheap... pull the transformers out, control board may be good too and might be compatible

Great idea.

Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2021, 01:45:10 PM »
Now I am watching videos on how to make a toroidal xformer. LOL.

Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2021, 03:47:03 PM »
Cab I just use a 500va 220v to 12v isolation transformer??
Thanks for helping me with this.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 07:30:19 PM by Astro »

Mary B

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2021, 12:22:38 PM »
Only if you want a 350-400 watt inverter... the toroid has to handle the full power being generated.

Scruff

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2021, 05:12:56 PM »
I like to apply a what is your time worth coefficient when undertaking a goal-driven endeavor.



An ear to the ground got me these from parity what the doughnut inside woulda cost.
I've enough for a village project I reckon...

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2021, 09:16:51 AM »
I too run in to the "why build it when people sell stuff dirt cheap because they don't know any better".  My last Midnite Classic was cheaper than free because i paid half price for it, and got a free Outback inverter thrown in. 

One good thing about overhyped marketing. People with more money than knowledge tend to spend big bucks on systems, then sell them for cheap when they don't do the impossible things the marketing suggested they would.

Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2021, 09:54:39 AM »
Yeah, I think I have had something given to me or had a really good deal fall into my lap all of about 3-4 times in my life. Don't get me wrong, I have amazing luck, I mean almost unearthly luck, but it has nothing to do with people. I do not know how many cars I have bought that I have never had to do anything with. Both my ex and my wife have watched me in a casino or sports betting and asked "how do you do that or how are you picking them".
I do not know how many times I probably should have died. Kinda done pushing my luck on that one though.
 As for people, I am kind of an odd duck and a homebody. So I do not get to know a lot of people. Even when I was in business, I had the attitude of I am here to do a job and not talk. So not so good on the people skills. In all honesty, it is probably because deep down after 10 min of talking to people, I am exhausted and want to just tell them to **** off. I have always been a big tipper because of all that. I honestly do not know how people deal with people all day every day.
 Ok back to project stuff. I am finding some issues in trying to put a system together.
Lets say I am going to use a forklift pack.
I want to build a mill. (I think I have that pretty much under control)
I found a couple of inverters (not charge controllers) that should be able to do what I am thinking.
So now I am going to need a charge controller. But I have that pretty well figured out from reading on this board.
HOWEVER, what if I want to charge my battery bank with my generator when there is no wind or little wind??
I read where you want to charge lead acid at 10-13 percent of the AH rating. Well if my bank is 1,000 AH, I am going to need to charge at 130 amps. I go with the 13% and maybe even 15% for losses in efficiency.
So basically I am limited to a forklift battery charger, as nobody makes anything that I can find that will charge at 130-150 amps. Not even all forklift chargers put out that kind of amps.
Now in reading I have found some people say that their charge controller accepts 120/240 vac input, but they did not say what charge controller they had, Or what amps they were charging at, just that they were doing that to be able to charge their bank when they had several days without sun.
So I thought, well what if I paralleled two battery chargers? Some say yes, some say no. I wonder if they would still work in the same stages of charging, or if I would have to have 2 of them for say an hour or two  and then shut one off and let 1 top off the bank by itself?? That sounds kind of hokey. I kind of wanted to make the gen set auto start and pretty much the whole thing just takes care of itself, except battery watering and maintenance of course.
So then I think well, maybe I need to go to a 48v system instead of a 24v one. But that does not change the fact that ideally we want a 13% of the banks AH rating as our charge rate and finding 48volt stuff for shore power charging or gen charging, is even harder.
So it would seem there is some areas of putting a system together that are a little short on building of equipment for "green energy" off grid living or whatever you want to call it. Not that the materials do not exists but that nobody is making the stuff. Aims has a 12-24v charger that is rated at 75/37.5 amp, but other then that there is slim pickens, SO now I would have to have two of those chargers to get to 75 amps (which limits my bank size to 600AH at 13%charge rate) just to charge my bank on cloudy or low wind days. PLUS a charge controller for the turbine and or panels.
Just saying there is an easier way, there has to be. Everyone wants to build a charge controller with an inverter package, but it seems to me that a high amp charge controller that is capable of taking shore power is more what the market needs. Screw the inverter, you can add those as you go.
 So in the end, we are screwed if we want to charge at 10 to 15% and have a 1,000 plus ah battery bank. It can be done, but the equipment to do it it slim and extremely expensive. I think many people do not get to worried about spending $4000 on two forklift packs. I think most people understand the concept of stacking inverters and getting the power at the amps they want/need. It is the charging of the battery banks and especially large ones that is the problem.
So, we have a couple different systems that are smaller. Say 3 banks of 300ah (which is 39 amp charge rate at 13%) with the charge controllers, shore chargers, wind mills, solar panels and inverters that go with a system of that size. Then have 3 50 amp or whatever electrical panels.
More then one way to skin a cat, I guess. Either that or paralleled chargers and such. Just does not seem logical that someone could build 2 80 amp controller/chargers cheaper then they could build 1 150 amp controller/charger. But whatever, I would rather have 3 smaller systems anyway, that way if something fails, I am not stuck with a totally inoperable system.
In conclusion (lol have you seen that comedian??)
It seems to me that about a 3-400 Ah bank is optimal. You just have to have more then one and split the loads up more then you would with a 1,000 ah hour pack. Either that or live with a low charge rate. Which may or may not be a good or bad thing, depending on how you look at it and who you talk to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN2y-p-vM4k
 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 12:39:10 PM by Astro »

noneyabussiness

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2021, 03:42:08 PM »
not sure where you got this magic number of 13%, but In my experience these work  fantastic as a " charger " I have a 1000ah forklift pack, works fine, usually only used to " top up " when absolutely needed.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Giantz-250-Amp-Inverter-Welder-DC-MMA-ARC-IGBT-Welding-Machine-Stick-Portable-/392043456772?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0

on a 48v system, you usually need to add a turn or 2 to the main transformer ( secondary side / dc side) and they become a heavy duty current controlled dc charger, 24v they will work out of the box... I have a 2.5kw generator  that happily runs it when needed. which is rare if you spec your system properly... If you run a AC mig or stick welder remember to run it through a bridge rectifier first ( high amp obviously)..

please don't read into youtube too much, a lot of those morons wouldn't know up from down...

these things have been discussed extensively by very knowledgeable people on here and other " renewable " forums, if Im allowed I can post some links to them if interested..??

heck a member of another forum ( Poida ) has posted info with a home made MPPT high current charge controller with a arduino, easy to fix yourself if anything goes wrong and open source info... all the info is there, just need to look in the right areas ...

Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2021, 05:27:14 PM »
not sure where you got this magic number of 13%, but In my experience these work  fantastic as a " charger " I have a 1000ah forklift pack, works fine, usually only used to " top up " when absolutely needed.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Giantz-250-Amp-Inverter-Welder-DC-MMA-ARC-IGBT-Welding-Machine-Stick-Portable-/392043456772?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0

on a 48v system, you usually need to add a turn or 2 to the main transformer ( secondary side / dc side) and they become a heavy duty current controlled dc charger, 24v they will work out of the box... I have a 2.5kw generator  that happily runs it when needed. which is rare if you spec your system properly... If you run a AC mig or stick welder remember to run it through a bridge rectifier first ( high amp obviously)..

please don't read into youtube too much, a lot of those morons wouldn't know up from down...

these things have been discussed extensively by very knowledgeable people on here and other " renewable " forums, if Im allowed I can post some links to them if interested..??

heck a member of another forum ( Poida ) has posted info with a home made MPPT high current charge controller with a arduino, easy to fix yourself if anything goes wrong and open source info... all the info is there, just need to look in the right areas ...

LOL after my long rant before, I thought about it a little and was arriving at the same solution you just gave.
IDK where I read 13%, basically it said you want your charge rate above 8% and the more you use the system up to 13-15% charge rate of your AH for full time off grid living.
I have a plan. LOL I did when I walked in here too. I am looking at an entire set up now, with wind and a back up generator. I know where I can get fork lift batteries locally. I might even add a little solar someday.
Anyway, my head hurts from all the figuring I have been doing and now including my generator into the entire permanent set up.
All I wanted to do was build a wind generator, but nooooo ya'll are making me think more. LOL. Well at least it will be done right the first time.

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2021, 06:38:59 PM »
Also, almost all off grid inverters will act as a battery charger when using generator power.  Mine is a 48v input 120v/240v output 4400w inverter.  It will charge the bank at 60a off the generator and while the generator is running, the ac loads are powered directly off the generator. 

60a at 60v (48v absorb) is 3600w so not a bad rate.

13% is pretty high.  You can definitely charge slower. 

Astro

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Re: Build an inverter
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2021, 09:14:38 AM »
Also, almost all off grid inverters will act as a battery charger when using generator power.  Mine is a 48v input 120v/240v output 4400w inverter.  It will charge the bank at 60a off the generator and while the generator is running, the ac loads are powered directly off the generator. 

60a at 60v (48v absorb) is 3600w so not a bad rate.

13% is pretty high.  You can definitely charge slower.

Never thought about that. Thanks.
My plan is to put in a 100amp service (because they are cheap) Then put my important circuits in that box. Feed it from an auto transfer switch and have the inverter power be the normal power. Then if it should run out or low, have the generator start. I am not going to run 100 amps, as my generator (and inverter set up I am looking at) is only 50, so I will need to fuse it or put a breaker in somewhere.
That way if I go camping or something, I have nothing to worry about with my fridge freezer and furnace fan being on it's own power. Meanwhile, I do not have those things on my electric bill.
 I have a whole bunch of it figured out and priced out. I have a bad habit of writing down numbers all over the place and my wife must know I am getting close to done designing the whole system, including building the wind turbine, because yesterday she handed me a notebook so that I could organize all my final numbers, deign thoughts and companies and their prices.
The whole thing turned into a lot more thinking then I expected. Like I said I just wanted to build a wind mill. LOL