Author Topic: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.  (Read 13636 times)

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clockmanFRA

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Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« on: October 21, 2021, 02:27:59 AM »
I have transferred my reply to 'joestue' to a new thread topic here.

Bruce, this may be a long topic as i have stuff started but cant give it all my time as i have hundreds of other tasks i need to get sorted, but i will report as i go.

 Although it might be a year or two, unless i get a little more investment money, the wife! to shift things forward a bit quicker. 
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2021, 02:28:30 AM »
Joestue,

I have been practically experimenting with the PLANTE battery components over the past 20 years. A PLANTE battery is all lead plates. I have experimented with lead, zinc, lead, zinc but its a hassle and zinc so easily distorts with any heat.

I have dismantled and had a 'look see' and repaired different standard commercial designs and types.

Most use a lead matrix grid system and imbedded a paste mix of some very unpleasant chemical pastes. The lead matrix is pure lead but only makes up about 1/3 rd of the battery weight, its the lead oxides chemical pastes that make up the rest.

Now i have seen a utube vid, a year back cant find it now,  of a backstreet company in India recycling commercial manufactured lead acid batteries. Crap! man, all very fascinating, but hell life expectancy and breeding a family is not very good in that environment.
They remove the plates and get everything off them back to the lead matrix grid.  The pastes are re-constituted, although this was not fully explained, and in a remade soft putty paste form re applied to the lead matrix grids and allowed to set. Then the battery is re-assembled into new cases.
The other day i received one of these, and was told by a French supplier it was New and high quality etc etc, Just under one sticker/badge, put on by the French retailer, was a stamp mark 'Made In India'.   I tested it with my battery test gear, and it had only 50% of the amperage capacity of a proper new, new commercial battery of the same size and case design. Yep it was one of the India recycled types.

As for just taking a battery and smelting it down. Nope could not recommend that concept.

For a good PLANTE battery i am going to use Uk industrial Lead roof flashing that comes in rolls of various thicknesses and widths. Its not  PURE, PURE lead in the true chemical sense of purity but its acceptable.

I do have smooth rollers to crush down to a specified thickness. Again this thickness depends on hanging lead sheets and seeing them distort and sag over time to optimise for the case length of a completed PLANTE 2 v cell at 50kg, and at the moment best i can achieve is 1.7mm thick, so this area needs a allot of thought.
 Each plate will get a thinnish Polypropylene woven material sock so the plates can be tightly packed into the case so there would be minimal use of Sulphuric acid 15 to 1 mix, and this tight packing would be similar to a true AGM structured cell with the glass matt cell separators. Although not as tight as a commercial AGM as these tend to bulge and crack the cases at the end of there life.
 Then there is the possible need for polypropylene plate comb separators at the plates base and at the top to avoid distortion contact between the main Plus and negative Bus bars.  Most AGM's, the ones i have had apart, cells fail on this as the cell ages it raises 7mm, and there is only a manufactured clearance of 10mm, and that cell is then toast.

Anyways, a fair bit to sort out in many parameters to get to a Do It Yourself PLANTE battery of 50kgs at 2 volts and about 400ah and publish a DIY book.

 Yes I do have chemical fume cabinets and even a chemical room so i can do most stuff on experimentation in a safe manner.

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Bruce S

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2021, 08:43:35 AM »
ClockmanFRA;
Thank YOU for taking the extra time post this much information about a long term interest.
This statement "Yes I do have chemical fume cabinets and even a chemical room so i can do most stuff on experimentation in a safe manner." was very good to see as well. Had I not read it here , I would've certainly asked.

I've seen the u_tube posts showing how the batteries are torn down. Similar to this is "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l665eovBlEk"

Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Astro

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2021, 09:26:12 AM »
Clockman

I too heard a suggestion about using roofing lead. But I too am the type who likes to build something that lasts. Not saying roofing lead wouldn't, idk, like I said I have not looked into it much. Even a roll of that stuff is not cheap.
I am not sure if he is still around, but I used to sell my scrap copper to a 1 man shop not terribly far from where I live now.  He smelted as well. Seems to me that someone I was talking to many years ago said they bought smelted lead from him that they were making fishing sinkers out of. Well anyway, I do not know, but without some higher tech smelting operation, it would be chocked full of impurities. You know, that might be a good thing and make the battery perform better then any other on the planet, or it might make it junk. Problem is unless you know exactly what is in the lead and have all your plates of equal compound make up, you will not know what you started with.
Similar things have happened to me before. Something works great, but I am not exactly sure why and since I do not know why, I can't or have a hard time repeating it.
All that leads me back to what I mentioned when I first got here, when I said that I am not a big fan of "do it yourself youtube videos" Because the people that watch them have no idea of why something must ne done a certain way. They are like they are at McDonalds and just want their food. They fast forward and just try to skip to the answer without learning anything.
Anyway, best of luck it whatever you work on. Sometimes I think half the fun is not the I did it moment, but the getting to that moment that is so much fun.
 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 10:51:52 AM by Astro »

Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2021, 12:30:00 PM »
NEVER attempt to smelt down a modern car battery! The plates are not pure and the released chemicals are a heavy gas similar to WWII gases and deadly. And the resulting lead if melted again can be deadly because the chemicals carry over! Arsine and stribine are the 2 main ones formed. Very good discussion of it here https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?138362-Why-Car-Batteries-Are-Dangerous

The  commercial lead recyclers have fume hoods and ways to neutralize the bad stuff that gets released.

Yes guys used to do it many years ago, batteries were made different back then and were mostly pure lead plates. Battery tech has changed and now it is NOT healthy to mess with it!

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2021, 04:35:34 PM »

I've seen the u_tube posts showing how the batteries are torn down. Similar to this is "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l665eovBlEk"

Bruce S


Nearly Bruce, but these were ordinary 12v car large batteries say 110ah where the plates have just fallen apart . And they go back to just the lead matrix grid, dry them and re=paste them. But very similar to the Health and Safety protective gear and working conditions!!!!!!!! Just utterly stupid.
But the boss makes good money and proudly posts the utube videos, what a world! what a world!

I found this one on re-pasting, ...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEvPjOKkPyE

and this one which is part of 7 how to make a battery.   ......... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BG8N0emfYE

Please dont do this at home folks!!!!!!



Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Bruce S

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2021, 04:50:55 PM »
Please don't do this at home folks!!!!!!
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Scruff

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2021, 05:05:31 PM »

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2021, 04:43:32 AM »
Making a large PLANTE, Lead Acid Battery.

Firstly my grateful thanks to Bruce and the Moderators here on this forum to allow me to openly discuss this PLANTE battery manufacturing on a small scale process.

10 years ago my experimentations and developments with these PLANTE batteries were actively disapproved off on most ‘Sustainability, Renewable Energy Forums’ around the World. And even In 2015 when we were discussing here the Make your own Inverter the old ‘boys’ from the ‘armchair Wafflers brigade’ got relatively heated and wrote in a very elegant way, and they sure knew how to talk the talk, but empirical evidence from them was very lacking.  Again, thanks to Bruce and the moderators here for calming things down.  Thanks Bruce!..
 
I will present what I have so far on this project as if I was writing another book, so bare with me, and please chip in if you have empirical evidence that can assist.

In the INDIA utube posts above, about recycling old commercial car/lorry lead acid batteries you get a good understanding what’s in a standard lead acid battery. As’ Mary’ has reiterated messing with these is full of health issues as the paste in the matrix lead plates is full of some very nasty chemicals.  These chemicals assist the electron flow and reduce internal resistance problems in each cell and also maximise the battery output for the Ah, so they need to be there for commercial and better output reasons and yes a Chemists delight.
 However, these commercial lead acid batteries’ therefore have a tendency to have a short life span, as the paste will eventually just dissolve and sink to the base and short out the cell.


So WHY a PLANTE Battery?.

Advantages.

Firstly, it’s a simple cell lead acid battery.

Secondly, If made correctly it lasts a life time, ie, your life time, say 40 to 50 years.

The more you use it, the more Ah capacity it gets.

It can be made from readily available materials at a reasonable cost.

If we make the case correctly, our PLANTE battery can be easily dismantled and the lead plates cleaned and repaired and the battery put back into use. 

 It has the same rolled lead plates for both Anode and Cathode plates, so just lead sheet and no extra added nasty chemicals.

 Its electrolytic medium is still 15 parts volume de-ionised water to 1 of Sulphuric acid, I used to use a 80%  pure Sulphuric acid as my acid mix.  REMEMBER NEVER, NEVER pour water into Sulphuric acid, YOU MUST ONY POUR ACID INTO THE WATER, and do that SLOWLY as the acid still makes things get hot quick and spits and spatters.   Today ready mixed battery acid is readily available, but at present I have not tested any commercially available product, as I am never sure any more of commercial QC, Quality Control.
 
It will have POLYPROPOLENE battery container/case is now easily obtained and, in all shapes, and sizes and can be easily manufactured for your own purposes. Polypropylene is the container for our PLANTE battery and is not that much affected by the Sulphuric Acid mix. In the old days it was Glass.

It has POLYPROPOLENE woven cloth, which comes in a good assortment of mesh sizes. This material will be used as a insulator between the Anode and Cathode plates, and will be sewn to form a sock on each plate.  No more making plate separator combs, yippee!

The last important reason for our PLANTE battery is that we can really stack the plates tightly in the polypropylene case, so acid use will be minimalised.


Disadvantages of our PLANTE battery.

Firstly, Because we are not using all those extra chemicals and a plate grid matrix construction method, Our PLANTE battery for equal physical size of a commercial standard lead acid, ours will only have about 1/3 rd of the Ah capacity. This is an important consideration as we need to do a fair bit of costs examination of our manufacturing to see if our PLANTE battery project is truly COST EFFECTIVE.   Obviously some of the Pros are fantastic, but the poor Ah is a drawback, so hence going for a big battery that you can just lift yourself.

Secondly, The PLANTE battery process of forming the battery is a long winded, as the battery needs its plates forming with the correct oxides.  This is normally seen as a minimum of 40 charge and discharges and must be done precisely to get the correct oxides forming on the correct plates.  I have done all this and I have yet to get a battery when I start the process to form as I want, ie I connected everything up added the acid and the plates I designated as Positive turned out to be Negative when I tested them before even started the charging process, it seems that the Cell at first acid fill is actually bi-sexual.  But once started its important to stick to the charge regime.  After 40 charges and discharges the battery is put into service the more you use the battery the better the Ah gets.

After reading the above you will see that I have had to design the PLANTE battery with several important design parameters, and sorting out the Cell plates internal resistance.  This I will sort out in my next post.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2021, 05:09:16 AM »
As far as I am aware only EXIDE are still manufacturing PLANTE batteries.

However, i have never examined one, so i cannot see the actual plate thickness and the plate forming, so unsure of this particular manufacturers TRUE LIFE SPAN.

If the plate thickness is thin, then the Lead goes mushy as it all turns to oxide and that life expectancy is short.

Here is a couple of photos.  Interesting where they are made?

14382-0

14383-1






Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2021, 12:01:40 PM »
Hmmm they make square plastic buckets these days... might make a good container... just thinking off the top of my head.

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2021, 01:41:37 PM »
Okay, if you read the specs of the so called Exide PLANTE battery the Negative plates are a grid matrix paste filled, but only the Anode is pure sheet lead.  So i doubt the paste plates on the negative cathode will last more than normal commercial Forklift types.

Mary, Sadly a standard bucket is not going to cut it, as its important to supporting the plates, or holding them upright properly. As you can see with the Exide pic above each of the 12 plates is supported with a wedged tang on just one side.
 So might do mine with two wedge tangs per plate then holding each plate with the case however sediment could short the plates out on the case lip that will support, but i can see why they just do one wedge tang on each plate as this stops Cathode shorting with the Anode over time with sediment, so if its just cathode wedge tangs on one side of the case and Anode support on the other side of the case lifting lip.

  And again alternate the base support at the bottom of the inside of the battery with one support comb for anode and one for cathode plates.   That means that each of the 12 plates will have a side lip support and a base support.  Yep that looks a goer.

Preliminary Case design .......
 I did think about a slightly tapering internal case, but i think a lip in the case like above pic is good as the plates are unlikely to get wedged in with this kind of big and heavy battery, and beside so much easier to get the plates out of the case and wash and repair in the future.
My previous cells i made up relied on the case top supporting the plates on the main bus bars, but with a big and heavy battery a case lip internally would be good.

Yes, it is possible to get transparent polypropylene.



 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 02:21:37 PM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2021, 01:50:48 PM »
On each page of this topic,  MAKING LARGE LEAD ACID BATTERIES. i will put a disclaimer


DISCLAIMER.


NO liability is accepted by the author of this topic and future published book, for any damages of any kind, for the ideas, construction, operation, performance, or impact in respect of this post and books subject.

Bruce i trust this is okay? and if necessary please amend or add to this to protect the Forum from anyone claiming they read something here and ........
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Scruff

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2021, 03:32:15 PM »
Mr Piggott has a take on that, that I appreciate.



so did Mark Twain.


clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2021, 04:12:03 PM »
LEAD SUPPLY.

I have a kind person in the UK going on a search around the local Oxford, UK builders merchants to track down 6 meter lengths, Code 5, at 2,24mm thick and 210mm width rolled lead.

Here are the lead details sufficient for one battery.

14384-0

Specifications of the rolled lead and the purity.

14385-1

Specs and differing standard sizes.

14386-2





Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Warpspeed

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2021, 04:49:36 PM »
Making a large PLANTE, Lead Acid Battery.

10 years ago my experimentations and developments with these PLANTE batteries were actively disapproved off on most ‘Sustainability, Renewable Energy Forums’ around the World. And even In 2015 when we were discussing here the Make your own Inverter the old ‘boys’ from the ‘armchair Wafflers brigade’ got relatively heated

I can definitely identify with that Leslie.
Even uttering the words "home made, and lead acid" labeled me as a dangerous antisocial criminal psychopath, unfit to share society with decent people. I just could not believe the hostility I was receiving.

But I have actually done zero with any of this, I still had some ideas...
My concept at the time was two long rolls of roofing lead wound together with mesh insulation between, rather like a large capacitor.  This could sit vertically in a glass jar.  To prevent sediment from shorting the plates the whole thing would need to sit on some kind of grid or frame to support the plates, and allow plenty of depth underneath for sediment to collect.

My ideas were for several small series connected experimental cells just to play with and learn from.  I never went any further than just thinking about it.  But it might be a very simple low cost way for someone to get started with some really small cells lo learn from. 

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2021, 02:39:05 AM »
Hi Warpspeed,

Yes i did think about the roll method.

I think for smallish batteries its a goer as you can suspend the roll from the top, and have 2 bars of plate support in the bottom. one for the positive and one for the negative plates. however depends on how many turns in the roll as the diameter will increase/decrease and practicalities of making the plate support when the battery gets big maybe a bit of a headache.

Also the tightness of the wound lead means the expansion and contraction may be an issue with a big battery.

On my present thinking I am allowing a rectangular slightly taper box, with a bigger top for hanging the plates on the width at the top and at base support ridges in the bottom. Again the hanging support bars will each only be doing positive plates and negative plates separately to stop sediment build up and short out.  I will allow slight expansion for the plates on the width but keep them firmly pressed together to stop the Oxide build up from being agitated from the lead plates, and will allow the polypropylene case to flex a bit for expansion and contraction and ageing. 

The Oxide build up and retention needs a bit of thought.

Phillip Hurley's book, 'The Battery Builders Guide',  He does mention that with the PLANTE solid lead plates they need to be scored to act as a physical holding medium for the plate forming process to use, also this increases the plate surface area.
he reckons these need to be more than 1/64 th inch deep and wide, that's about 0.4mm. Hence me going for 2.24mm thick lead.

Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2021, 12:32:18 PM »
Okay, if you read the specs of the so called Exide PLANTE battery the Negative plates are a grid matrix paste filled, but only the Anode is pure sheet lead.  So i doubt the paste plates on the negative cathode will last more than normal commercial Forklift types.

Mary, Sadly a standard bucket is not going to cut it, as its important to supporting the plates, or holding them upright properly. As you can see with the Exide pic above each of the 12 plates is supported with a wedged tang on just one side.
 So might do mine with two wedge tangs per plate then holding each plate with the case however sediment could short the plates out on the case lip that will support, but i can see why they just do one wedge tang on each plate as this stops Cathode shorting with the Anode over time with sediment, so if its just cathode wedge tangs on one side of the case and Anode support on the other side of the case lifting lip.

  And again alternate the base support at the bottom of the inside of the battery with one support comb for anode and one for cathode plates.   That means that each of the 12 plates will have a side lip support and a base support.  Yep that looks a goer.

Preliminary Case design .......
 I did think about a slightly tapering internal case, but i think a lip in the case like above pic is good as the plates are unlikely to get wedged in with this kind of big and heavy battery, and beside so much easier to get the plates out of the case and wash and repair in the future.
My previous cells i made up relied on the case top supporting the plates on the main bus bars, but with a big and heavy battery a case lip internally would be good.

Yes, it is possible to get transparent polypropylene.

I was thinking more along the likes of these... I have used similar for brewing buckets and a full pail of wort is heavy stuff https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=136212&catid=1359

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2021, 05:28:23 AM »
Hi Mary,

I looked at your buckets and they are a good price, but they taper more than i would like.  I see they are made from HDPE, HIGH DENSITY POLETHYLENE,

Its the acid containment that needs thought, and for a decent 48v battery bank i will need 24 off battery containers.

However Mary, it turns out that HDPE is actually better for acid containment than Polypropylene, and rated for use up to 80% for sulfuric acid,  where polypropylene is 70%.

So your Input has made me re-think the battery containers. 

Hopefully this give me more options on having some formed for me to my specifications and drawings.

Thickness is also a big concern, and i had been thinking for polypropylene, the case would be about 6mm thick. I have worked with polypropylene and understand its flexibility and loadings.

But with HDPE, I will probably need to learn about its physical properties at a manufacturer moulder, especially its brittleness and ageing issues.  But i am adaptable if some thing they already produce can be turned to what we want.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 06:40:12 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2021, 05:52:14 AM »
AH Output for our PLANTE batteries.

Now that i have some 2.24mm thick lead at a purity of 99.93% on its way here, i can now pin down some approximate Ah, (Amp,hour) figures for what we are doing.

Each battery will be 2v, and weight about 50kg finished, it will have about 40kg of active plates, and for our 13 plate PLANTE battery cell we are talking about 550ah, this will be improved if i get the the scratch lines in the lead sheets done properly and uniform on all plates this will increase the surface area of the plates.

Will probably do a steel comb with 0.7 pins in it at 1mm spacing and very slightly round the pins on there tips so they do not cut, but push there way into the lead. I will ensure that all pins will be no more that 0.6mm in depth.  I will make the steel comb about 80mm wide and on a flat plate that is smooth and therefore you can push down with your hand and slowly drag the comb handle with the other. 

So you take 3 passes on the length of each plate, and then many passes on width of the plate to give a criss cross pattern, don't want to cut the lead to reduce its thickness and strength .  Thinking about it maybe better 45 degree criss cross pattern on the plates.

I will experiment.........
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 06:41:44 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2021, 02:02:45 AM »
BATTERY CONTAINER.

PLANTE battery is in case design stage, 2v 550ah, Now PVC case, but for loading and 50kg weight testing and stress etc.

Not that many PVC fabricators around, plenty in China i see, so no choice but to manufacture fabricate the case myself, to achieve a usable and dismantlable cell design, ie take the top of.

PVC has the same acid containment as the HDPE at 80%.

 Machined and manufactured with Polypropylene but not PVC, but with PVC you can use some very good PVC solvent adhesives with primers and drill tap A4 stainless steel 4mm bolts and plastic welding on the seams.

PVC is not as environmentally friendly as Polypropylene, but as this case will take weight and a 15 to 1 mix of sulphuric acid solution then i would rather err, on the side of caution, until i find a design that works well and then can be moulded by a manufacturer.

Have a good reasonably priced plastic ridged sheet stockist here in France, so 10mm thick PVC grey large sheets will be ordered.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 03:06:38 AM by clockmanFRA »
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joestue

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2021, 11:40:40 PM »
Friend of mine runs a chem lab.  Should not be hard to reach into a car battery with some needle nose plyers and put a sample through a machine.

Im pretty confident there is no antimony in them.

My experience with agm cells is the positive grid totally discinegrates. You can break the grid in half and see zero lead, the entire grid is red lead oxide and is as brittle as chalk. It didnt start out that way.

In fact a high flexibility copper braid anchored to the battery case would prolong the average car batteries life. I have taken apart a dozen of them over the years and often the positive plates are broken only on the positive battery post. Its not a geometry problem or laughably.. Some people actually believe the most positive cell fails becase thats where the electrons leave.

Its just vibration coupled into the battery by the 1 kilogram wire a meter long.
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clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2021, 02:14:03 AM »
Thanks 'joestue'.

I am going to start needing information like yours in the near future.

Even my rolled lead sheet getting here is becoming a nightmare.

 Getting that 99.94% pure lead in France is just not going to happen as few here do any smelting, and those that do wont tell me the purity or they them selves don't seem to know.

I do have a few Kgs of bullet lead that i inherited from a relative, he used to shoot full bore for a Club in the UK, mostly at the Bisley range and would make up his own ammunition.
But the bullet lead its very brittle and also very hard compared to normal soft lead that i use for making 14lb weights in Horology.

Yes would be interested to know what is in true Bullet lead.

Everything is possible, just give me time.

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Bruce S

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2021, 08:58:44 AM »
normal soft lead that i use for making 14lb weights in Horology.
I would've thought those would be iron or pot metal, given that people need to pull on them every so often.

Had I even thought to think they were Pb, I would've snagged a few for casting fishing weights. The Fishing weights we have and continue to find are Pb too.

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Bruce S
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Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2021, 01:00:51 PM »
Thanks 'joestue'.

I am going to start needing information like yours in the near future.

Even my rolled lead sheet getting here is becoming a nightmare.

 Getting that 99.94% pure lead in France is just not going to happen as few here do any smelting, and those that do wont tell me the purity or they them selves don't seem to know.

I do have a few Kgs of bullet lead that i inherited from a relative, he used to shoot full bore for a Club in the UK, mostly at the Bisley range and would make up his own ammunition.
But the bullet lead its very brittle and also very hard compared to normal soft lead that i use for making 14lb weights in Horology.

Yes would be interested to know what is in true Bullet lead.

90% lead 5% tin, 5% antimony is a common mix... but there are literally hundreds of combos people have used. It could be pure wheel weights... it could be type lead that is very high in tin...

Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2021, 01:17:44 PM »
If you have a nearby scrapyard they might have an xrf machine that can read the metal and tell you the composition...

If you were in the USA I could ship 10 pounds of pure lead but shipping that over seas is a no-no without all kinds of paperwork due to it being a toxic substance.

Wheel weights(older ones) are 1% tin, 3% antimony, 95.75% lead and may contain .25% arsenic

some other lead alloys are listed here http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

an alloy will add strength t your lead sheets and stop any gravity deformation. A source for pure lead may be a old plumbing shop, they used to use it to pour around oakum packing in sewer pipe joints(I have smelted this down.. STINKY!!!!).

I think I have around 3 tons of wheel weights to process and sell the lead... some pure lead(stick on wheel weights are pure or very close to pure). Some printers lead may have traces of silver(makes for a very tough bullet), I deliberately introduce tiny amounts of copper into my bullet casting lead, makes them a lot tougher so they can withstand modern cartridge pressures and velocities without turning into a puff of lead dust a couple feet from the end of the barrel when centrifugal force tears them apart. I have fired them at 3400 feet per second, waiting on a test form a friend who can work them up to 4200 feet per second in his 22-250 caliber rifle.

Maybe an alloy will help your plates last better? Just an idea... watch out for zinc wheel weights if you go that route! Zinc can cause dendritic tendrils to grow and short your plates

SparWeb

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2021, 11:09:29 PM »
Hi Clockman,

Maybe that material standard will have a clue.  The lead sheet you displayed above is formed per "BS EN 12588" which looks like a material standard.  That may be a specific form & purpose standard (sheeting for roofs) and cross-reference to a raw material (material with a specific composition).  Whether it's in one standard or more than one, together they may describe the material well enough for you to know what you really have there.  Or at the very least what you "don't have" such as excessive tin or some other impurity that's either useless or condemn your Plante quickly.

The problem with this idea is that the damn standards are expensive, and usually not complete enough to ever tell you what you want to know without getting half a dozen more.  I know this because I've been down that path many times.  In North America it's a bit of a racket between ASTM, SAE, ASME, IEEE and a bunch of other alphabet soup organizations that publish standards that reference each other.  In Europe, as you know it's CE, BS, DIN, and so on.  When engineering something, there are times that you just have to swallow the cost, buy a bunch of them, and that's the only way to stick "the answer" in somebody's face.

With that in mind, and if you're concerned enough about the potential waste of your project time and investment, then getting a copy of the BS EN standard could seem to be 140 EUR well spent.  If you like doing the legwork instead, you may be able to find copies of standards like this at other places, like libraries or engineering firms that, like me, don't appreciate being shafted for 10 sheets of jargon-filled paper, and will be happy to hand you a photocopy.
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joestue

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2021, 02:16:03 AM »
the reason I don't believe there is any antimony in the grid is because.. they tried using lead calcium plates on one side and lead antimony plates on the other side to get the hydrogen production to stop but not have the open circuit problem from the calcium oxidizing on the positive plate. and it would work... but any antimony present on the surface of the plate.. migrates over to the other plate.. and now you have a traditional lead antimony battery with its high water loss rate.

also the only reason to alloy the grid is to improve its stiffness. in an agm cell for example there's no reason to add anything to the grid, if it were pure lead maybe the battery would last longer, who knows.

xrf guns are great but not perfect.

some us submarines have thin plate pure lead batteries and the manufacturers were telling them to change the charge and discharge algorithms every few months.. they couldn't make up their mind.

they experimented with continuous discharge as well.. btw. charge the batteries then slowly and continuously discharge them, the do it again. don't know what the intent was.

i do know however.. that agm cells left in a storage unit for 1 year have a 50-70% chance of being dead and open circuit. while others from the same batch are still reading 12.2 volts or so. makes no sense to me.
flooded lead acid batteries don't do that.

the prospect of smelting down car batteries and rolling the lead into sheets and then building batteries with only 10% sulphuric acid as an electrolyte sounds interesting.

seems to me you can do corrosion tests to measure the amount of tin, antimony, or other materials relatively easily.

or just dissolve the "lead" into some acids.. dilute it 1,000,000:1, and send it to a lab for "water quality testing" and for a couple hours wages they will tell you what's in it.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 02:30:07 AM by joestue »
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clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2021, 03:18:05 AM »
Hi Bruce,

Lead is heavy, and soon jumped upon by the Clockmakers of Europe in the mid 1600's.

By the 1730's most houses with a longcase clock wanted style, so the ugly lead was encased with a thin brass covering that then acted as a tube to poor molten lead into. I still make special weights, for instance for a 2 month regulator design of mine that requires a 12kg one.   Just for you Bruce, See photo below, 2 month precision regulator for one of my clients.

On substance we want a weight to be as heavy as possible but yet as small as possible.  I did look at and i specified on the UK's Millennium clock was depleted uranium as its nearly as heavy as Gold, which in the early 1980's was available from British Nuclear Fuels. And at a meeting their scientists assured us that as long as we encased it there were no issues, obvious they were desperate to find a market even just for us clockmakers. I wasn't ready at the time. But by 2000 the folk making my Millennium clock kicked up a stink about the clocks weights. I believe the military were using depleted uranium in their bullets and it got withdrawn from the arsenal of weapons it could kill someone .

14526-0

Mary,
 
Yes something is definitely in that lead from my friends bullets, i know he did his own casting, but his stuff is so dense the only place i could use it was balancing my wind turbine blades with a couple of holes drilled through it.

SparWeb,
 
  You are very correct, finding a supplier that can guarantee lead sheet specifications is not easy. I have 2 in the UK so far. And as you say best to buy in bulk and batches that are known specs.  Sadly my recourses are minimum for stock of materials, but i have enough and at good specs to manufacture a couple at least.

 As regards EN & ISO etc norms, well like you say its great but open to interpretation. I once had to go on TV as a specialist qualified representative of the Clock & Watch Institutions, regards Water Proof and Water Resistance Watches.  ISO  rules and documents were so wishy washy that most Companies were driving a Coach and Horses through them. I was ready, I had taken 10 watches recently on the market from a Sports Clothing Brand and put them all through ISO testing standards, and yes all on TV, and yes most failed, but on the dials etc it had written 20 meters etc, but in-fact only splash proof.  That's a Brand that hates me. LOL.   
SparWeb sometime over a few beers i will tell you the whole story, still makes me chuckle when i think of it, I was always white shirt, but open neck no cravat/tie and always asking "what you going to ask me". Acting on behalf of professional organisations i never wanted to be a bumbling old professor type.
 I had to do the interview on the back of a Luxury motor yacht in a posh mariner, and the Models were going to jump into the sea with the watches on, however when it came to Live broadcast the tide had gone out and the models had to pretend to jump into the sea. I struggled to keep a straight face as things slowly went down hill from there. I was told by friends that i held up well and very professional, yea right. I did a few more TV stuff after that. 

joestue,

I am giving the PLANTE design of solid lead plates a modern twist.
To increase the oxidation of the plates to form the correct type of Oxide that will improve the battery ah capacity, each plate will receive 0.5 deep and 0.5mm wide and 0.5mm between each, scoured into the lead plate with a a comb. And then by charging and discharging and each time reversing the positive and negative polarity, a good Oxide will build up a bit quicker with out making the lead sheet to thin, and so still support it self for the next 30 years or so.
 
After due consideration, the comb is best achieved using a cat and dog FLEE comb which must be stainless steel as we do not want any bits of iron getting stuck in the lead. So every day Flee combs keep arriving in the post for me to test.  Remember this whole process of making PLANTE batteries is for normal folk to make and keep a standard of production.


   


   
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 03:41:27 AM by clockmanFRA »
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Mary B

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2021, 02:26:13 PM »
There is a pencil test on the  Cast Boolits site that will get you the laed hardness, from there an educated guess can be made as far as alloy.

Wheel weights are medium hard, can cut into them with a side cutters, printers lead is very hard, can dent it with side cutters but it is tough stuff, pure lead you can cut with a side cutters... Lee makes a BHN(hardness) tester that can ID pure lead by hardness alone.

Another source for very pure lead is a hospital or clinic doing an xray room remodel. They use it as shielding on the walls. I have about 300 pounds of it from when they decommissioned the old clinic. Need to get that smelted for a local blackpowder shooter, $2 pound... and I will probably end with 275 pounds after removing all the glue and other gunk in the smelting pot, a VERY stinky/smokey process as it burns off.

Melt temps are another way to tell if it is pure or an alloy, the site I posted earlier has a melting temp table for various bullet alloys.

joestue

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2021, 01:22:07 PM »
seems to me you could make a roller to form the lead into .5mm wide and deep grooves.
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clockmanFRA

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2021, 11:03:45 AM »
seems to me you could make a roller to form the lead into .5mm wide and deep grooves.

Yes, something i am looking at.

What ever method i use will have to be repeatable and uniform and yet easily obtainable.

 But i have a feeling that i may have to make a basic hand roller for the lead plates and put it as an extra option.

I have some 26mm diameter stainless steel bar that i have put to one side, and for me its no problem to set one of my Swiss machines up to make a few rollers and hand rollers.

The lead plates will need marking both sides, except the end sheets that will need only one side.
There are many variables with the roller method, in width and distance between the groves for hand rolling and if not careful its easy to crush the other side once you have done one side. So working on that.

The flea combs are not strong enough for long term use and soon bend, and getting the depth uniform will require some sort of Jig making. But its another option for the dedicated maker.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Bruce S

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Re: Making large PLANTE lead acid Batteries.
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2021, 01:54:19 PM »
ClockmanFRA;

That clock is beautiful !! When can I order one?

The roller issue steers me towards using a pasta making roller setup, 0.5mm thickness should not be an issue, you could even setup the lasagna roller could even be setup to mark grooves instead of cutting. Just a thought

Bruce S
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