Author Topic: Mosfet as a diode replace?  (Read 1792 times)

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OldBawley

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Mosfet as a diode replace?
« on: November 10, 2021, 05:12:13 AM »

New question, back in 2013 I build a windgen with an Ametek 40 volt motor. See
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,147282.msg1019361.html#msg1019361

The gen is now in use for 9 years, only in winter when the sun is low. Very happy with my less than 100 € machine. I read the old posts and noticed that the gen is delivering a bit less Amps. Wonder why. I had fire last year, my gen has no slip rings, furling is done by the boat turning into the wind after its anchor. I was anchored on a bad spot, wind funnelling around a 300 meter hill, so one moment from east, split second later from west. So no good for the gen. I allowed the gen to turn into the wind by itself, the arc (about 180°) limited by a lanyard. Unfortunate the lanyard broke, the gen yawned two times around and by doing so sort of strangled the power cable. That thick cable was pulled on so hard that the leads shorted. Just below the gen head, just below the fuse.
Result was empty battery's and a molten cable, melted connections and a molten Amp meter.
Renewed everything, this time put the fuse close to the battery's.
Could this be why the gen is delivering a tiny bit less?
I still have the schotkky diode ( IR MBR7545 45V 70 A ) and have noticed that since my system is sort of self regulating the drop of voltage caused by the diode means a lot of wasted wind.
I bought a mosfet ( IRF4905 Mosfet Pchannel 55V 74A to220AB) of witch I had read the mosfet could replace the diode and have a lot less voltage loss.
Unfortunate, I have no idea how to connect the thing.
Any specialists here who could lead me?






mab

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2021, 12:27:30 PM »
Voltage drop across the schottky should only be 0.5v, 1v tops. If you use the mosfet as a diode in a simple mosfet-always-off setup the voltage drop will be similar:-

With the to220 package facing you with the pins down (so you can read the text on it) the pins should be gate, drain, source from left to right.

Connect the gate to the source to keep it turned off (otherwise it'll conduct in both directions). Then, as it's p channel, it should be a diode that conducts from the drain ( middle pin and tab) to the source but not the other way.

If you build a circuit to turn the mosfet on when the generator is producing more volts than the battery, you will have a much lower voltage drop - if you know a bit of electronics you could build an op-amp circuit to do this, otherwise I'd suggest using something like the LT4320 ideal bridge driver - although that should be used with n-channel mosfets.

Is the ametech motor a d.c. motor with brushes? After 9 years the brushes may be worn out.

Mary B

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2021, 12:53:23 PM »
Bingo on the brushes! After 9 years they may need replacing or cleaning. Bearings may be starting to go to requiring more wind to get it turning... they are a pretty robust motor but the bearings are undersized and not water proof...

Astro

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2021, 05:26:20 PM »
I do not know much about electronics. I agree, I would check the brushes and contact points after that long of use.
Also as I mention in another thread heat is usually a sign of inefficiency. From my very limited understanding of electronics mosfets are better then diodes in almost every case as they do not heat up as bad with sudden changes in voltage. Meaning they are more efficient and more dependable in our situations.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, because I do not know about all that stuff, but if I recall correctly, I think I came across that situation or information at one time or another.
 So since I have limited knowledge of electronics, sorry I can not tell you how to hook it up, but mab already answered that anyway.

OldBawley

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2021, 06:43:41 AM »

Thanks for the replies.
First, I have been using the gen for 9 winters but the actual running time is much less.
I only use the gen on dark days when our solar panels deliver insufficient and I only use the diy gen when the wind is below force 4. Sory to use the old wind strength Beaufort's scale, I am an old sailor who does not even has a wind measuring device. Our 76 year old wooden boat is as low tech as possible, except for a depth sounder no electronics. That is probably why we are still sailing and cruising (full time, summer and winter) the Med after 22 years. No costs except for some food.
Anyway, the two bladed 1,72 m propeller is way to dangerous in big winds and above force 4 the voltage delivered to the battery's ( no regulator) is to high. When the wind gets to strong I tie down the wing and the Aerogen 4 on top of the second mast takes over.
I never leave the boat with the big gen running and at night the big whopper is tamed as well because I hate getting out of bed during thunderstorms.
So the total running time is low, nevertheless, once out of the dark days I will inspect the brushes and bearings. Which in my opinion are very good quality.
As for water proof of the bearings, I did make a labyrinth seal for the front bearing. Made it on my mini lathe out of perspex. Anyway, since the conversion from direct drive to geared drive the motor shaft is facing back, no problems with rain or wind driven water.
I will build a sort of heat sink / mounting board for the mosfet and do some tests with the thing using a 12V drilling machine motor. Hard to comprehend that so small a mosfet and such small pins can have the 5 Amps that are often loaded by the Ametek. Max I have seen is 20A, by then the gen gets to dangerous, stands just 2 meter above deck, has to be stopped.
I also wonder if there is a way to have the Ametek gen load not been affected by the load (tension) of the solar panels. The gen only loads as his tension is higher than the tension of the boats circuit, and that circuit tension is influenced by the tension of the solar panels. Or do I see that wrong?







mab

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2021, 12:31:45 PM »
Re: having the ametek affected by the solar panels:-

Yes you are seeing that right. :) the ametek will spin faster when the panels are pushing the battery voltage (tension) up.

It is possible in theory - using an electronic boost converter between the ametek and the battery so that the ametek sees the same voltage (tension) even when the battery voltage is higher- but probably not a simple solution.

If you have a gearbox on the ametek anyway you could modify/replace with a different ratio so the load comes on to the ametek at a lower voltage, but that would also reduce the speed when the battery is low of course.

OldBawley

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2021, 07:06:36 AM »
When I made the two bladed prop I made it as big as I had wood. Finding the correct wood was very difficult here in Greece. In the end I found a probably 100 year old bed on the side of the road by the dumpster witch had pine planks without knots. Out of 4 of the mattress bearing planks I made the 1,72m diameter wing. I knew that a bigger wing turns slower but also knew that the power of the wing increases enormously with been bigger. I decided I could always make the wing smaller, not bigger. In direct drive the Ametek made very good voltage in higher winds but nothing in less strong wind. So I opted to go for a geared system. I use a roller chain as reduction. A bit as a bike chain but smaller 8mm links. A roller chain is the most efficient reduction possible.
After some experimenting I now have what I think is the best reduction for the Ametek 40V and my wing. I starts very easy because there is no load, and in low winds makes just the range of voltage that my battery's need. I wanted a low wind speed generator, not a high wind speed gen, I already have the Aerogen.
The roller chain makes noise. That noise is transferred through the 2 meter high mast to the deck of the boat and a boat is like guitar case. Inside I can hear on the sort of noise what the gen is doing. The moment  he starts charging (when his voltage is higher than the boats system voltage) the noise changes, I can hear that the chain is now under load. Even as our fridge starts running and therefore the boat tension drops, I can hear the windgen starting to deliver more.
I don’t mind the noise, it means the battery's are been charged, a good thing.
Others have a generator running, that makes a lot more noise.
In fact the wing always turns at max ??? I think You guys call it stalling speed.
The Ametek makes zero to 15 volts depending on the wind speed. The diode loses 0.65 volts, that is almost 5%. With a mosfet the gen would start charging 5% earlier.




« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 09:23:07 AM by OldBawley »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2021, 02:49:30 PM »
A roller chain is the most efficient reduction possible. [but]
The roller chain makes noise. That noise is transferred through the 2 meter high mast to the deck of the boat and a boat is like guitar case.

Roller chain and cog belts are very efficient.  But I think V-belts are underappreciated.  They have 95-98% efficiency when first installed and if kept properly tensioned, and only drop to about 93% (before they start squeaking annoyingly) if they're allowed to go slack over time.  If you have 5% more wind power than you need, you might find the quiet worth taking three extra minutes per hour of mill operation to get to full charge.  (And if you're shutting down the mill to get quiet for sleeping, think how much more power you could collect if you didn't have to do that.)

If you do try a v-belt drive, adjust its tension when you install it and again after it's run-in for a few days.  After that you should only need to check/adjust it a couple times a year or less often to keep it working efficiently, even if you left the mill up continuously.  (Or just tweak it if it starts squeaking.)  Like tires they last for years (longer if you give them a sunshade), work in a broad range of weather conditions, and are available inexpensively worldwide in a range of sizes.

Quote
In fact the wing always turns at max ??? I think You guys call it stalling speed.

Actually the speed is limited by the load voltage plus the charging system voltage drop.  As the mill speeds up, the voltage rises.  As the voltage rises above the cut-in voltage (battery plus diode drop) the current starts to climb (limited by the excess voltage divided by the winding, wiring, and battery series resistance (approximately, since the diodes aren't ideal so there's a little curve to it)).  The current produces a retarding load on the shaft, which keeps the blades from speeding up as much as they would if they were unloaded.  Because the current rises rapidly with overvoltage above cutin, the speed while operating is close to a constant related to the system voltage, substantially lower than the free-wheeling speed of the unloaded blades, rather than proportional to the wind speed.  (If the diodes were ideal, the wiring and windings were superconductors, and the batteries had no series resistance or other voltage drop from the redox-reduction voltage gap so they were a hard voltage source, etc. the blades would spin up to the cutin speed and run at EXACTLY that voltage-controlled speed regardless of how much higher the wind speed got.)

You see the wind-slip phenomenon especially clearly in water pressure turbines, such as the pelton.  Unloaded, the cups ride along with the jet of water.  Loaded for maximum energy extraction, they turn the water around and it leaves the cups essentially stopped, with just enough momentum left for it to get out of the way.  This leaves the turbine running at almost exactly half the unloaded speed.  For wind turbines it's not as simple:  They're momentum turbines for a compressible fluid, subject to the phenomena Betz analyzed, and the airfoils' performance varies in a complex fashion with the effective angle-of-attack, as well.  Still, RPM under ideal load is in the ballpark of half that of an unloaded rotor in a given wind speed.

Stalling is the phenomenon where the blades are slowed so much relative to the windspeed times unloaded TSR that the wind on the backside of the blades starts to detach on the trailing side - like your sails when you've hauled them in too far while pinching.  When that happens they shed vortices and sound like a helicopter (rather than flapping like the trailing edge of your flexible sail).  They also lose power substantially.  (Some mills use this for furling, though it depends on the electrical load continuing to be present, shakes the mill, makes a LOT of noise, and has other problems, so we prefer things like the gravity or spring based furling tails.)

If you let the mill speed up and use a buck converter to drop the voltage to what's desired (boosting the output current in proportion), you can get more power in higher winds.  Max power point controllers do this and adjust the load on the mill so it spins at the speed that gets the most power, but just using a buck converter regulator gives you some of the benefit.  (Use a relatively high current one:  If it goes into current limiting it may not load the mill enough for the furling to work properly.)

Power available from the mill goes up with the CUBE of the windspeed, while charging current of a straight diode - to - load system goes up with the first power of the excess of the mill's RPM over the cutin speed.  So a MPPT controller, or even just a buck regulator, easily pays for its own small losses with a substantial profit at wind speeds even moderately above cutin.  (Also:  counter-intuitively, just adding some resistance to the simple diode-based circuit can let the mill speed up enough in winds moderately above cutin to provide more charging current to the battery than without the extra resistance, although this hurts you in winds only moderately above cutin, when you need power the most.)

Generated voltage goes up with the RPM, which at ideal loading tracks the wind speed.  That means the alternator output current in a max-power-point system goes up with the square of the wind speed.  Resistive heating is proportional to square of current and thus goes up with the FOURTH POWER of wind speed.  So it's important, with MPPT or approximations like a buck converter voltage regulator, that your furling works correctly, to avoid frying the alternator in high winds.

Quote
The Ametek makes zero to 15 volts depending on the wind speed. The diode loses 0.65 volts, that is almost 5%. With a mosfet the gen would start charging 5% earlier.

Right.  Lower cutin is great.  You also save the losses from the current through the voltage drop, so you continue getting more as things speed up.  (It's about like the wind being higher by 5% of the cutin wind speed.)

« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 03:16:52 PM by DamonHD »

OldBawley

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2021, 06:12:02 AM »

Thanks for Your comprehensive explanation. I guess I will have to read it multiple times to understand everything.
For the roller chain versus V belt, keep in mind that the Ametek is small, the roller chain I use is a 8 mm pitch, often used in model making or fine machinery. A V belt that small does not exist. Chain has the advantage over a cog belt that the tension of the chain / belt is not crucial. I made a fixed installation, a new chain is tight, becomes slack after hours of running but that makes no difference to the working.
Just as an update, anchored in a sort of Sea lake (Poros Saronic Greece) and it is clear that something is changing the weather. After 35 years of living on board and observing weather systems I had never such a bad winter as this one. Weeks on end without significant wind witch results in heavy cloud covering. Hard to get electrical power. My solar panels who under normal Greek circumstances deliver 9 A are now giving 1 to 2 Amps, not enough to live with and the wind generators not moving since even the sea breeze is not existing for lack of sun.
All of that alternated with a week of heavy storms.
I managed to keep the battery banks charged by simply not using any power, others have the petrol generators running half of the day witch is not enough, good for bulk charging but absorbs ion and float charge take at least 8 hours, so they have permanent discharged battery's.





OldBawley

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2022, 10:53:41 AM »
Today received a small package out of China. Inside is a “Ideal diode” It is not a diode, but acts as a diode. Supposedly without forward voltage drop.
The Skottkey diode I am using now has a forward drop of 0,6 Volt which is a lot in a system optimised (by wing diameter and reduction) to generate 12 to 14,5 volt at low wind speeds.
I now want to test the Ideal diode which is in fact a mosfet combined with some other electronics and need to know if I also need to ground the board.
In this video    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvBkSWMKRlg  the guy uses the ideal diode for solar panels and he uses a ground.
Any ideas?

15067-0

Mary B

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2022, 12:05:22 PM »
Looks like a MOSFET being biased as a switch. They have about .1v drop across them. I use one in the switch between grid/battery power and my ham radio gear. Grid fail it instantly drops on battery, radios don't even flicker. Older version had that lossy .6v drop, new model .1v

joestue

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2022, 04:45:41 PM »
Miniature v belts do exist

https://www.vbeltsupply.com/gates-2l100.html

That's a 1/4 inch wide v belt.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

mab

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2022, 04:53:19 AM »
...
I now want to test the Ideal diode which is in fact a mosfet combined with some other electronics and need to know if I also need to ground the board...
Any ideas?

(Attachment Link)
Yes i think the 'diode' goes in the positive line and does need a ground (negative) connection for the electonic control to work.

OldBawley

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2022, 05:45:15 AM »
The “ideal diode does need the ground connected. First tried it without the ground connected, touching the wire drew a big spark and the Ametek wanted to start spinning the wing. Then put the ground on the negative (the ideal is in the positive line) and connected. Now worked as a diode.
But, with a bit more wind the Ametek generated 4 Amp at around 13, 5 volt and then things went wrong. From 4 A on I could hear a stuttering in the generator and the gen could not make more than 4A where with the schottky I would have had about 10 A.
So from 4Amp on the “ideal” malfunctions, switches very fast to closed or simply lets current from the battery's thru. That makes the Ametek stutter. I have no idea witch failure it is, the wing is to big and heavy to see something at that speed.
Will replace “ideal” with the old Schottky.

OldBawley

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2022, 09:38:57 AM »
Sorry folks, I was wrong.
I replaced the “ideal”diode with the Schottky I had used for years. We then had a period with lots of sun and no wind so the wind generators did nothing.
Yesterday I sailed the boat to the other side of the Poros inner sea and had wind there.
Surprise. Now with the Schottky the same happened. At 4 Amps the generator made strange stuttering noise and the amps went not higher.
Now I knew the problem was mechanical. Cause fast found. At the same time I put the mosfet diode in the line I balanced the two bladed wing en mounted with some grease between hub and main shaft of the gen. Where I had to use a headless m4 bolt mounted between “skin and meat” to have the chain wheels fixed on there shafts, the friction between the prop hub and the shoulder it was pressed against on the main shaft was enough to take the main shaft with it.
Now a little grease had found its way onto that friction coupling and exactly at 4 Amps the hob started slipping.
Me bad.
Cleaned the grease away, mounted the Ideal diode back and now everything works fine.

DamonHD

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Re: Mosfet as a diode replace?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2022, 11:20:59 AM »
Good diagnosis and fix!

Rgds

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