Just like that

[Astro]

The price per unit of the mags I am using just went up 30% since a couple of days ago.


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-tightens-grip-rare-earths-133050344.html

[MattM]

I was thinking that something happened when I was looking for some.  I was thinking what should have been about $50 was now $70.

[Astro]

Yeah, what it is, is China is and have been cornering the market on battery making. Now with governments across the world pushing electric cars, they are setting themselves up to be the supplier of said batteries.
 Without getting political, I think the electric car thing is a waste of money. It is not about saving the planet, it is about lining pockets.
 I wish I would have started my project about a year before I did, but it is what it is. Like I told my wife, do you really think things are going to get cheaper? You think we have grid problems now, just wait until a couple million people start plugging in their cars. But really, I am looking 5-10 years down the road and I don't think anything has ever gotten cheaper and so I doubt electricity will either.
 More then anything I thought I would just give the heads up that if someone was on the fence about buying some mags for a project, they might want to pay attention to what the market for them is doing.

[SparWeb]

It doesn't have to be political to just stick to the daily economics of life.

Anticipating an increase in energy cost (electric or otherwise) is kind-of a no-brainer.  For the near-term, the relative cost of electricity VS. gasoline for me makes an EV about 10x cheaper to operate per distance.  Annual costs for repairs and other items like a charging port in my garage will eat into the savings, a little.  Increasing cost of electricity will whittle it down, too.  Still probably cheaper for the next 10-20 years.  It's not like the cost of gasoline is going to go down much, either.

Further than that, it's harder to forecast.  It's too soon to guess where the balancing point will end up being.

[Mary B]

It doesn't have to be political to just stick to the daily economics of life.

Anticipating an increase in energy cost (electric or otherwise) is kind-of a no-brainer.  For the near-term, the relative cost of electricity VS. gasoline for me makes an EV about 10x cheaper to operate per distance.  Annual costs for repairs and other items like a charging port in my garage will eat into the savings, a little.  Increasing cost of electricity will whittle it down, too.  Still probably cheaper for the next 10-20 years.  It's not like the cost of gasoline is going to go down much, either.

Further than that, it's harder to forecast.  It's too soon to guess where the balancing point will end up being.

Are you factoring the $20,000 battery replacement at around 10 years in? I drive vehicles until either MN rust gets them or the engine explodes... so my current one may last 20++ years

[Astro]

It doesn't have to be political to just stick to the daily economics of life.

Anticipating an increase in energy cost (electric or otherwise) is kind-of a no-brainer.  For the near-term, the relative cost of electricity VS. gasoline for me makes an EV about 10x cheaper to operate per distance.  Annual costs for repairs and other items like a charging port in my garage will eat into the savings, a little.  Increasing cost of electricity will whittle it down, too.  Still probably cheaper for the next 10-20 years.  It's not like the cost of gasoline is going to go down much, either.

Further than that, it's harder to forecast.  It's too soon to guess where the balancing point will end up being.

Are you factoring the $20,000 battery replacement at around 10 years in? I drive vehicles until either MN rust gets them or the engine explodes... so my current one may last 20++ years

You are not far from me, I'm in IA.
We have 2 cars. My wifes Jeep with a 6 speed and a little tiny gas tank, so it gets pretty good mileage. Then my old diesel truck which does not get driven much except to pull the camper and haul things in. Either which way, it is 10 miles to the nearest store and 35 miles to the nearest Walmart (not that I go to walmart). So to get anywhere is a drive and I can't see using an electric vehicle for much of what we do. I would like a electric golf cart, as just about everyone in this little town owns one (or a side by side) and in the summer at about 5 oclock cruise around with a sippy and see what everyone is doing and shoot the $#|+.
As for energy cost, like I said I have worked in the field all of my life and I have known for a long time that the grid needs work. Some areas are worse then others. So I just do not see the cost of electricity coming down. Factor in if millions of people start charging cars and some areas are going to have problems.
Lastly, if everything goes right, we all end up on a fixed income. Now I had some hard times in life. We are far better off then some, but we will not be retiring with a winter home in Florida unless we hit the lottery. For all my life the dollar has become worth less and less. Everything is expensive compared to what it was 10-15 years ago. That does not work out so well on a fixed income. So I figure while I am younger, I may as well plan ahead and get my house as efficient as possible. In the end the more I can save on heat, electric and other things, the further that fixed income will go.
I too use things until they just are not fixable anymore. To me that needs to be figured in when talking about efficiency. Because while a new car may produce less pollution, the pollution to scrap one out and to make a new one is far greater. So people who buy a new car every few years are polluting more then my old first gen Dodge Cummins. Same with these new crappy compressors in refrigerators and ac units. They do not last and then off to the junk pile and China makes a new one. All while China is the biggest polluter on the planet and does not have the epa laws like many other country.

[Astro]

Change of subject, but I am thinking about using a couple of these for my project. They make one that is 220v, but my thought is if I have the limit sensor on one leg and it is applying power according to what that one leg is using, it will not be accurate. Like if I am using 5 amps on one leg and 3 on the other and it is pumping 5 amps to each leg, I am exporting 2 amps and might be getting charged for exporting it.
 So my though is to buy 2 at 120v and install one on each leg of my 220v service.
When I started designing my project, I had all this in mind and it should all work very well together.
 So now the million dollar question. What do you all think???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224156307791?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110002%26algo%3DSPLICE.SOI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D235970%26meid%3Dd63c553ea7dd4109b7b836bf9439d111%26pid%3D101196%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D224674006495%26itm%3D224156307791%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DPromotedSellersOtherItemsV2WithMLRv3&_trksid=p2047675.c101196.m2219&amdata=cksum%3A224156307791d63c553ea7dd4109b7b836bf9439d111%7Cenc%3AAQAGAAACEGs1MyFFIYb693YnujWKZlXD10vBe4p3Wgb%252FUTCzHkpYd%252BF7In1b36k5747Pfjk2G9JjuZW5a4fQOTUhTV5fVruRGYvyG3Vcga5u%252Fi0WFm55ca4QyxnXINsz3pYMizy2DWgfMLUUvhrgHdMLhlOocpBo3HcDzLIJlSPAQRqhPu9ptaQRQmWnpwUXJ4jR6zgqwMqMa8Po6Zq0rwarP462%252B7c%252Fkwsm6kHE5sAitnTgjeI7qxEE1b7QKvmuzbk3g8mUa3%252FuGefSEE3XVZKGU%252BnLRyMD3Ks8abuPU2ArS1QgaleWLTalP4nMDDdINzozJDoSMLw%252BTXWJDS%252F6mSEAKE%252BgdKaG2kF6m96YL8MF1M%252BJQttZHXDog0NMMGro58BMbpTx2wqKiL%252BGczU77w6mfKKlvzc14aUBYAAv7HzibIkt3lT0dtTXgAAOtwYDzCReqOZOR%252FyxSz2ueBwkXg8oxr9cs9NiZ7oAYkNaXH%252FrwQX%252BJiD%252BtSrzcwgms0NnGzcz%252B4VE0vBCIta%252F%252BJwK9jBCvtmODbeg%252BLGwgxnfRuNbNWlQnUFxrHR4cX73xaVhL7rkS2hL9iu05Y8wXbmo7MGDifTvvO6bFA7S68quRMF5mifSOxUs93WfwwMVgpi2opO6iudwCxPDEO7AMQ4SNKIF5iqiyLDoj3U6Cy51dJWr59CMoe4LHJdjcrnZgryDDZzN2%252BBNew%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675

[SparWeb]

Basically, no.
One reason is that you shouldn't try pushing your own energy into the grid unless you are absolutely sure you are above-board doing it with the utility company on-side with your set up.  Inspection, agreement, electrician, etc.
Yeah, yeah, I know we let some people talk about doing it "the other way" here but usually it doesn't go anywhere.  Folks doing homebrew inverters and homebrew GTI's generally know what they're doing and have a firm grip on making their equipment safe for everyone involved, and they have the training and background to avoid big mistakes. 

The other reason is that your suggested device simply won't do what you want it to do.  You have no way to show to anyone that it's safe.  Way too cheap, way too "overseas".  Who is going to answer your phone call with set-up questions?  A box like that probably won't "stack" two 120V outputs into a 240V output without nasty secondary effects, leading to smoke and other unpleasant things.  It will also probably lack proper battery management tools, so even if it doesn't blow up in 10 seconds, your battery won't be happy.

To do what you want to do above-board, do a no-nonsense professional installation, and sleep easy.

[Astro]

Basically, no.
One reason is that you shouldn't try pushing your own energy into the grid unless you are absolutely sure you are above-board doing it with the utility company on-side with your set up.  Inspection, agreement, electrician, etc.
Yeah, yeah, I know we let some people talk about doing it "the other way" here but usually it doesn't go anywhere.  Folks doing homebrew inverters and homebrew GTI's generally know what they're doing and have a firm grip on making their equipment safe for everyone involved, and they have the training and background to avoid big mistakes. 

The other reason is that your suggested device simply won't do what you want it to do.  You have no way to show to anyone that it's safe.  Way too cheap, way too "overseas".  Who is going to answer your phone call with set-up questions?  A box like that probably won't "stack" two 120V outputs into a 240V output without nasty secondary effects, leading to smoke and other unpleasant things.  It will also probably lack proper battery management tools, so even if it doesn't blow up in 10 seconds, your battery won't be happy.

To do what you want to do above-board, do a no-nonsense professional installation, and sleep easy.

 I spent my entire career working with electricity. So I mean I think I have a pretty good grasp of safety and installation.
 As far as "grid tie" goes, the simple way is to have a 120v contactor that drops out when the utility power goes down, thus shutting down any power you are feeding into the grid. same as an automatic transfer switch.
 I will build my own set up before I get the utility company involved. I looked into it in the beginning, because I was going to build a big mill and at night I could export a fair amount of energy that I am not using. First thing I noticed is they changed the laws on the utility buying power, RIGHT AFTER THE BIG CORPS GOT DONE BUILDING 100's OF HUGE WIND TURBINES. So now they only have to buy 10% above my avg monthly bill, after that they pay very little per KW. So if my avg is 1200 KWH, they are only going to buy 120KWH at a "fair" (but below what they charge) price.
So the electric company can kiss my ass. If you are paying 10-15 cents per kwh, say they pay you 10 cents per kwh, at 120 kwh per month. PFFFTTTT. I will stick with making it and using it and if it is blowing to hard and goes to dump load, I will use it for water heat.
 These units are stackable, but I do not know if they will stack like that to make 220. But the things I am going to run with it are not 220 anyway. I am wanting my furnace fan, fridge and freezer to be ran.
Eventually I am going to put in a whole new small panel and it will not be on the grid at all. But for now, I am going grid tie with limiter. Then I will add batteries and another inverter to the same panel/circuits the grid tie supplies when it is producing.
Soooooo........ with a grid tie inverter with limiter, say I am drawing 12 amps, but the wind and my mill is only making 6 amps. it will then only draw the other 6 amps from my batteries. Because my batteries will now be the grid. If I can not do that, I will just put in a contactor that switches between the grid tie inverter and the inverter running off batteries. So if the wind is blowing and I am making enough power, I won't be using the batteries at all. Then all I have to do is buy a 120v 24v battery charger to charge the batteries. Then if the wind is not blowing and I am out of battery, I can just fire up the generator and have power and charge my batteries. Otherwise when the wind is blowing at night and I am not using much power, the batteries can be charged and maintained by that 120v charger. So a 120v charger will take the place of a charge controller. It will get it's power from the grid tie inverter or the generator. Hoping to leave the generator out if it as much as possible.
I get that I may not have explained it all that well, but trust me, I have designed far more complicated things than this. So I can see it in my head what I am building, I am just not the greatest at explaining it.

[joestue]

Even a cheap overseas system is not going to backfeed a dead grid, and also assuming i'm reading your explanation correctly, you're going to set it up so it will never back feed the grid anyways.

[Astro]

Even a cheap overseas system is not going to backfeed a dead grid, and also assuming i'm reading your explanation correctly, you're going to set it up so it will never back feed the grid anyways.

 No, I am going to build my mill, then I am going to hook it up to this. This is going to be hooked up to my home's grid. Then in the future I am going to get some batteries and another inverter for "back up" power. I will charge those batteries with a 120v charger. Then I will use that "back up' system as my "grid" power for a small panel. So the inverters (grid tie with limiters) will try to feed that panel, but if they can't or can't supply it all, the batteries will make up the difference. The idea is to rarely need them to do that, but if it draws a couple amps here and there, the system should be ok and it will just recharge them when the wind picks up or the draw goes down. If not, well the charger is 120v, and all I have to do is fire up the generator and it will provide power to those circuits as well as charge the batteries.
 Like I said, pretty much all you need to do to make almost any inverter a "grid tie" is add a contactor that kills the power from the inverter if the utility power goes down.  It is the limiter part of this that I am after. Because what I was trying to explain is that eventually when it is all done, the batteries will be my grid. Meaning that first these grid tie inverters with limiters are going to try and supply the power to the load, if they can't for whatever reason the batteries will. However it should also then work so that if I am drawing 15 amps and my mill and these grid tie inverters are putting out all they can and say at that moment due to wind, they can only provide 10 amps. My batteries will only have to supply the other 5 amps. When my usage or draw goes down or the wind picks up, then the 120v charger can recharge and maintain the batteries.
 Now some people are going to say "yeah but why not just use the batteries now and use a charge controller". Well because batteries are expensive, so the least amount I have to buy the better. I will not know how many batteries I actually need until I know not only how much power I can make, but also how consistently I can make it. We almost always have wind, so I am good there. If I have to I will make a circuit so that if the batteries get low and I am not home to start the generator the battery charger can be powered from the utility. Also because doing it this way I have the least invested with the most return on what is invested. Meaning I should see my electric bill go down right away. That savings will free up funds to further expand and finish building the complete system I have in my head.
 This all leads back to one question.
If I make 50% of my needs and my neighbor makes 50% of his needs and we work opposite shifts and use the power at different times, between the 2 of us, we have almost all our needs met. BUT there is no money in that is there? So do not go thinking that the utility is ever going to allow "sharing". Remember, they are only going to save the world if there is money in it. Once you understand that, you kind of get to the point I am at and say screw them then.

[Mary B]

Basically, no.
One reason is that you shouldn't try pushing your own energy into the grid unless you are absolutely sure you are above-board doing it with the utility company on-side with your set up.  Inspection, agreement, electrician, etc.
Yeah, yeah, I know we let some people talk about doing it "the other way" here but usually it doesn't go anywhere.  Folks doing homebrew inverters and homebrew GTI's generally know what they're doing and have a firm grip on making their equipment safe for everyone involved, and they have the training and background to avoid big mistakes. 

The other reason is that your suggested device simply won't do what you want it to do.  You have no way to show to anyone that it's safe.  Way too cheap, way too "overseas".  Who is going to answer your phone call with set-up questions?  A box like that probably won't "stack" two 120V outputs into a 240V output without nasty secondary effects, leading to smoke and other unpleasant things.  It will also probably lack proper battery management tools, so even if it doesn't blow up in 10 seconds, your battery won't be happy.

To do what you want to do above-board, do a no-nonsense professional installation, and sleep easy.

 I spent my entire career working with electricity. So I mean I think I have a pretty good grasp of safety and installation.
 As far as "grid tie" goes, the simple way is to have a 120v contactor that drops out when the utility power goes down, thus shutting down any power you are feeding into the grid. same as an automatic transfer switch.
 I will build my own set up before I get the utility company involved. I looked into it in the beginning, because I was going to build a big mill and at night I could export a fair amount of energy that I am not using. First thing I noticed is they changed the laws on the utility buying power, RIGHT AFTER THE BIG CORPS GOT DONE BUILDING 100's OF HUGE WIND TURBINES. So now they only have to buy 10% above my avg monthly bill, after that they pay very little per KW. So if my avg is 1200 KWH, they are only going to buy 120KWH at a "fair" (but below what they charge) price.
So the electric company can kiss my ass. If you are paying 10-15 cents per kwh, say they pay you 10 cents per kwh, at 120 kwh per month. PFFFTTTT. I will stick with making it and using it and if it is blowing to hard and goes to dump load, I will use it for water heat.
 These units are stackable, but I do not know if they will stack like that to make 220. But the things I am going to run with it are not 220 anyway. I am wanting my furnace fan, fridge and freezer to be ran.
Eventually I am going to put in a whole new small panel and it will not be on the grid at all. But for now, I am going grid tie with limiter. Then I will add batteries and another inverter to the same panel/circuits the grid tie supplies when it is producing.
Soooooo........ with a grid tie inverter with limiter, say I am drawing 12 amps, but the wind and my mill is only making 6 amps. it will then only draw the other 6 amps from my batteries. Because my batteries will now be the grid. If I can not do that, I will just put in a contactor that switches between the grid tie inverter and the inverter running off batteries. So if the wind is blowing and I am making enough power, I won't be using the batteries at all. Then all I have to do is buy a 120v 24v battery charger to charge the batteries. Then if the wind is not blowing and I am out of battery, I can just fire up the generator and have power and charge my batteries. Otherwise when the wind is blowing at night and I am not using much power, the batteries can be charged and maintained by that 120v charger. So a 120v charger will take the place of a charge controller. It will get it's power from the grid tie inverter or the generator. Hoping to leave the generator out if it as much as possible.
I get that I may not have explained it all that well, but trust me, I have designed far more complicated things than this. So I can see it in my head what I am building, I am just not the greatest at explaining it.

No UL listing, when it starts on fire(and MANY of the cheap ones have) and burns your house down your insurance company will tell you to bad so sad it isn't covered because of unsafe equipment. If the electric company finds out they will cut you off. You violated your contract with them and I bet they won't reconnect without massive fees, inspection of EVERYTHING in your house a couple times a year for 3-4 years... and if it hurts a utility worker because it didn't island properly you will be in the poor house for life after the victims family sues you into oblivion.

DON'T DO IT!

DO IT RIGHT!

[kitestrings]

Do be safe, what ever you do - and, recognize, as I think you do, that there's some real junk out there.

You'll get more opinions than you may want, right, and not always saying, "yah, go for it".  For what it's worth, here is mine...

To me, it just seems to overcomplicate things.  A modest sized turbine will fetch you modest, intermittent output, if you have a good site and can get it up in the air.  I'd focus first on the challenge of your build - there's a a lot just in that - you can easily find a place for the energy.  Maybe just run a few lights, or preheat water, or use space heaters.  With low cost PWM controllers you can top off a battery and divert excess when available.

[Astro]

Well I can say without a doubt that most people are probably using UL listed 458 inverters. Which are not for home use. Can everyone here say their inverters are 1741 listed? I can also say that there might be some on here that are using vfd's for "other then intended uses". I would bet many did not bury their wires to code. I bet some did not use UL approved boxes, and fittings. I mean we are doing experimental things that they do not manufacture or they might, but not like ours. Do factories use disc brake hubs for rotors on a turbine?? Is conduit an approved tower building (structural steel) material?  I doubt those tri towers are rated for a mill and probably only intended for an antenna.
Point is I bet everyone skirtted the rules somewhere. You have to when what you are building is custom. 
 They simply do not make a system like I am making. Or like any of you all made.

 

 

[DamonHD]

Please can we maintain a civil tone and civil language?

I have removed a post that failed on both counts in its opening line.

Rgds

Damon

[Astro]

Please can we maintain a civil tone and civil language?

I have removed a post that failed on both counts in its opening line.

Rgds

Damon

Sorry. Just so everyone knows it was not about anyone here, but about my dis taste for the utility company.

 So I will re type.
I I add a panel of 2-3 circuits. Feed that panel from grid tie inverters, WITH limiters. Then have a couple batteries feeding a separate inverter. I will basically have a couple circuits that will be fed from the mill. If the mill can not provide enough power due to low wind the batteries will make up the difference. Because of the limiting function it will always take from the mill first it it is available. If I do a good job designing and building this set up, hopefully the batteries will really only be used to help with start up current of the fridge and freezer. That should help keep my mill at a more stable speed. If a no wind situation happens, it will run for a little bit off the batteries and when they go dead, I will have a contactor/transfer switch that turns on a utility fed outlet, with a battery charger hooked up to it.
 Now around here there is no lack of wind, but let's even say that half the time I am using utility power to charge the batteries and feed those couple of circuits. THE OTHER HALF THE TIME I AM NOT. That should be fully automated, simple and reduce my electric bill from day one. Obviously more batteries would be great, but I am not looking for power for days and I am trying to keep cost down to make the pay back time better.
For half the month I have turned the utility into the back up power and on those circuits I cut my usage in half.
It all starts with the mill however. So when I thought about all this at first I wanted a large one. Well cost was a problem. So when I started to lay out the parameters, I arrived at no smaller wire then #14 so I could pull about 15-18 amps. Any smaller and it was not practical for home use and larger was obviously going to cost more in every part need to make this system.
I am shooting for half the time it will be off grid. The avg for wind speed here is 15 mph. Obviously not all days have wind, but most do. Very very few still days or nights. If I can get it so that half or more then half the time I have those circuits off grid, I will build another one and remove a couple more circuits. But I know we have the wind more then half the time, so it all comes down to building a good set up.
In the end if the utility goes down, I will just throw a transfer switch and start the generator and power everything while charging the batteries.
Two of the biggest things are obviously the design of the mill and I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on my design. The second is I have to have a limiter on the inverters so it only draws what it needs from the batteries and no more then that. I have fumbled around and tried to figure out a way to make an independent limiter, but the light bulb has not gone off yet. I had a couple of thoughts on it, but they never fully turned into a plans.
I only want the batteries as almost like a capacitor in a way. And as long as there is wind, I want to turn the utility into back up power for those circuits.

Again sorry for swearing before (not really even a swear word), but I get a little.......... grumpy, when as I said "they only want to save the world if they can make money doing it".

[Mary B]

Well I can say without a doubt that most people are probably using UL listed 458 inverters. Which are not for home use. Can everyone here say their inverters are 1741 listed? I can also say that there might be some on here that are using vfd's for "other then intended uses". I would bet many did not bury their wires to code. I bet some did not use UL approved boxes, and fittings. I mean we are doing experimental things that they do not manufacture or they might, but not like ours. Do factories use disc brake hubs for rotors on a turbine?? Is conduit an approved tower building (structural steel) material?  I doubt those tri towers are rated for a mill and probably only intended for an antenna.
Point is I bet everyone skirtted the rules somewhere. You have to when what you are building is custom. 
 They simply do not make a system like I am making. Or like any of you all made.

 

 

If they grid tie YES they re using UL or CE listed inverters. Anything else and you take huge risks

[kitestrings]

I don't know what the requirements are in other parts of the country, or outside the US.  Here in VT, IMO, we have a very favorable net metering policy.  You can connect an RE system, with a CPG.  It's a very streamlined process except when you get into larger systems.  You can store credits for up to a year - that's the important one - allowing you to offset all but minimal non-bypassable charges.  You in essence get full retail credit for power you offset, plus a siting & Rec adjuster.  It's a good deal.

But, when you obtain a CPG for the system, you are committing to a couple of key safety provisions... such as, UL listing, IEEE anti-islanding, independent testing (NRTL).  IIRC it is IEEE 1547.1 & UL 1741, and of course NEC installation.  Failure to do that, however, I suspect shifts any/all liability your way.  I wouldn't recommend.  It's just not worth the risk.  And, if your meter turns backwards, at all, it is quite likely the utility will know now-a-days.

My advice would be, if you want to do net metering, do it, but do it right.  If you don't, keep your system independent/off-grid.

[joestue]

it shouldn't be hard to get some redundancy with regard to not pushing power back into the grid.

this could be as simple as buy an analogue kilowatt hour meter off of ebay for 30$ and cut a slot in the disk.

set up your system such that you're always drawing power from the grid through your mechanical watt meter. the disk will want to turn in one direction.

set a mechanical stop against the slot you cut, then use a photo-diode to determine if the disk rotated backwards. use that to trip your system offline.

i have a friend of mine with a brother speedio in his garage. it shoves 70 amps 3 phase at 200 volts back up the line for about 120 milliseconds when the spindle slows down from 16000 rpm down to zero, in just 200 milliseconds.

which works out to about 100 amps at 240v single phase being pushed back up the power grid. (he is running it from a rotary phase converter)

power company hasn't called him yet. in theory the energy would be enough to make the disk rotate backwards by about 1/8th of a turn.

[Mary B]

Modern smart meters will detect a back feed and send a signal up the line.

[DamonHD]

Modern smart meters *can* be bidirectional and record the separate flows in each direction...

Rgds

Damon