Solar Power Financing

[Crockel]

This might be a bit of a too specific question for a forum since financing options will vary province to province an country to country, but does anyone have any financing recommendations for a professionally installed solar panel installation?

I'm in southern Alberta and have just gotten a $41k (excluding $5k federal green home grant) quote for a 16.9kW system that will cover most of the roof of my house. This will max out my utility transformer and supply 130% of my power needs. The excess, I'll be able to sell back to the grid through a green power co-op at about $.258 per kWh to offset my distribution costs. I'm sure this doesn't make any sense to most because every province and country has completely different arrangements for power billing. Regardless, considering how damaging the sun, wind and hail is to shingled roofs here, this sounds like a pretty good deal just as a roof protector.

So far ATB (Alberta Treasury Branch) seems to be the best bet, but most of the websites are outdated and still mention the $10k Alberta grant for solar (eliminated under the UCP).

[bigrockcandymountain]

Unless your roof is a very difficult install, i would suggest a few more quotes.  I recently heard from someone just outside calgary having a quote for 16 kw and it was less than $30 000 before rebates.  I can maybe find the exact amount if you want.

As for financing, i can't help you much. 

Selling power at .25 / kwh sounds too good to be true.  You better double check that.  Your payback would be under 5 years I'm sure at that rate. 

[Crockel]

It looks like it's the Park Power solar club that pays micro-generators $.25 /kWh.
I'll see if I can share the link:

Nope.

$30k for 16kW sounds pretty good. That's less than $2/W. Most of my previous quotes were over $2.50/W. I might be paying a bit more because I wanted the German made panels and I'm in the middle of nowhere. Some of the installers out of Calgary don't even serve my area.

[SparWeb]

I'll be watching with keen interest, Crockel, as an Alberta resident myself.  In terms of the WWW, we're practically neighbours. 
I also have a bit of a chip on my shoulder, so if you don't accept my "negative nellie" attitude then all the power to you (pun intended).

I've noticed many retailers that have an incentive price, and the price you quote matches what I see on their sites.

To those who want to know more, specifically about the Alberta utilities, they can use these sites for some comparisons:
https://energyrates.ca/alberta/micro-generation-in-alberta/
https://ucahelps.alberta.ca/residential.aspx

(note that neither site is fully functional)

For clarity's sake, the 0.258$/kWhr export rate only applies if you actually produce more than you consume.  If you consume more, then your export rate is only 0.083$/kWhr, which is less than the average rate to buy electricity over the past year.  I guess it's better than a wet slap but you aren't going to pay back your solar panel array with that.

Second clarification is that the "electricity rate" is only a fraction of the ACTUAL electricity rate that you pay as a consumer in Alberta.  Offers are being made for only one of the floating consumption rates, not all of them.  From my last bill:

My Consumption: 887 kWhr   (26 Feb to 30 Mar)
Energy charge           106$    0.120 $/kWhr
Transmission charge    53$     0.060 $/kWhr
Distribution charge      39$     0.044 $/kWhr

Track the transmission and distribution charges on your bills and you will see that they are also consumption rates, however you are not reimbursed for those even by the greenest of retailers.
Depending on your retailer, you may actually be CHARGED for both producing electricity at those rates and for consuming at the same rates.  Be very careful.

As a memory aid, and to more explicitly understand the meaning of the 3 charges for electricity on my bill, I can refer to them this way:

Retailer charge = Epcor's piece of the pie
Transmission charge = Altalink's piece of the pie
Distribution charge = Fortis's piece of the pie

If you look at your bill and see similar charges, substitute names as applicable to your retailer and location.
If you swap retailers, you are ONLY going to change the first of those charges, not the other 2.
The only way to change your distribution charge is to move north or south of Edmonton relative to where you live now.
The only way to change your transmission charge is to leave Alberta altogether.
Micro-generation and local generation reduces load on long-distance transmission lines, so I think micro-generators deserve a break on that.

I'm slightly more willing to trust the retailers that actually publish an example of their micro-generator bills on their website.  That lets me read exactly how they do their billing.
However, it's never complete and you can't tell if they exclude from their examples any other "green" fees tacked on.

So as you can see, I'm a bit grumpy about the whole thing.  Other jurisdictions have FIT programs.

[Crockel]

Sparweb,
You lucky dog.
My FORTIS Distribution Charge last month was $135.16 ($0.0884/kWh) and my Transmission Charge was $71.22 ($0.0466/kWh). My usage was 1529 kWh last month, thanks to three teens who refuse to wear socks and sweaters but love electric heaters and freshly dried towels. Even in September, my Distribution Charge was $118.78 ($0.138/kWh) and Transmission Charge was $39.80 ($0.0463/kWh). I had thought Distribution and Transmission Charges were fixed $ amounts, but I guess not.
I'll have to find out from Solar Club how generating surplus power affects the Distribution and Transmission charges and work these into my numbers.
Financing still seems to be a complete pain. There seems to be $40,000 interest free loans that will be available for residential solar panel installations through the latest federal budget and the CMHC, but trying to find actual information on it is impossible. And ATB no longer seems to be involved. Banks are only interested in selling mortgages on suburban homes. Hurry up and go green is more like hurry up and wait.
I had been hoping to go with a combination of wind and solar, but installers just send me the same quotes for solar panels only.

[SparWeb]

Hi Crockel,
There are 2 wind turbines in my area and both have been "parked" for about 10 years.  To give you an idea of how successful wind turbines tend to be.  I stopped in to discuss the situation with these people at times.  Generally they're happy to talk about it, but not happy about the situation.  The 2 I mentioned have the combo: wind and solar and the solar is still going fine.  So the lesson is obvious, I suppose.

I'm pretty dyed-in-the-wool about doing projects myself DIY, so there's no way I can see a bank or the CMHC involved in a project like mine, even if I did massively scale up my tinkering.

My deep dive into the fee comparison websites also turned up a breakdown of the transmission and distribution fees for some customers.  It differs by provider and by where you live in Alberta.  I found a breakdown of the rates that shows that Distribution is part fixed and part variable, while transmission is all variable.  Last month the fixed distribution cost was 25.59 and the rest was variable.  It doesn't seem to matter who you buy electricity from, the D+T fees are the same, unless you move to another house.

The UCAhelps website seems to be a platform to get people to sign up for multi-year fixed-price contracts.  I don't know if that's good or not, just a characteristic of the comparison charts.  I'm on a floating rate, so I can't use the tool to exactly replicate what I see on my bill.  But it's close.  The rest of the information seems to be useful.  https://ucahelps.alberta.ca/cost-comparison-tool.aspx

PS, my barefoot resident boomerangs in between school and home (and due to return in about a month, it seems).

[Crockel]

I'd be interested in knowing why your neighbors parked their wind turbines. I guess the real benefit of solar is that there's no moving parts to service.

It sounds like the city of Calgary will be introducing a residential solar panel financing plan, but it won't be available until fall. Until there's something available in my area, my projects will be of the small scale DIY variety too. Maybe I need to find someone with a parked turbine that wants to sell.

[SparWeb]

The one I know about, by discussing it with the owner, is that the power cable twisted too much. The resulting bind caused the leads to cross, pinch through the insulation, and short out.  A stupid kind of problem and easily fixed, except for the logistics of accessing the WT.  Nobody involved in that WT installation, from owner to installer will pay for the process to get in a crane to lower the tower, do the service, and raise the tower again.  The WT is a Lakota.

The other WT is a Whisper of some sort, and it's probably parked because it's too noisy and close to the house.  I haven't asked the owner about it.  There's a longer story to it, in fact.  I knew the previous owner.  He was the one who first installed a wind turbine.  That one was an Exmork built in China.  I paid him a visit (about 10 years ago) and it was fortuitous because it wasn't performing well.  I put him in touch with a member of Fieldlines who had developed a data collection interface that allowed him to monitor the situation.  That gave him the information he needed to get the Exmork serviced and it ran properly after that.  Until, that is, a year later, when a fierce storm blew through and tore the tail off and the resulting whiplash caused the blades to strike the tower.  Debris didn't travel far but it was thoroughly shattered.  That earned him a replacement WT, which is where the Whisper came from.  He moved away and I haven't bothered to meet the new people, so I don't know what they think about the white elephant in their yard.

Are you an enterprising sort, and handy with mechanical stuff?  If you'd be interested in these turbines despite these limitations, I wouldn't mind helping where I can.  These two owners would both be likely to part with the turbines, and certainly the Lakota is a big enough machine to be worth an investment, if it can be shown that it can put back into service when properly installed.  You might be able to "buy" either one of these just removing them at your cost.

[Crockel]

That does sound interesting. Although I'm mostly interested in VAWTs, having my hands on some horizontal axis turbine bits would definitely get me started.

[Crockel]

I was hoping that a bidirectional power meter would measure my net electricity usage, but they don't. According to the Park Power Solar (sorry, I can't post a link), I will have a separate meter showing my usage and one showing my generation and will pay full distribution and transmission fees on my usage.

I will also have to switch my plan around twice a year for when I go from using more power than I generate to less and vice-versa to have the best rates. Between that and the $5000 federal rebate, my panels should pay for themselves at 10% ROR. More with inflation on the electricity rate.

Finding a bank that finances solar panel installations is still a pain. Most websites are horribly out of date or just vague (Scotiabank). I sent an email to Solar Alberta telling them to either update their site or take it down.

[SparWeb]

What about credit unions?
Many of them have specialties so perhaps you can find one with a plan for solar panel financing.
Are you asking these banks for a line of credit or a specific type of loan?
Would a home equity line of credit make sense in this context? It's a lot like a home renovation, after all.

[MattM]

Credit unions are pretty good at loans below $25k without limiting what you do with it.

[Crockel]

I could consider a home equity line of credit if I had more equity in my home, but I've been only here a year and a half. I've been to a couple more banks, RBC and ATB, but neither of them have loans specific for residential solar panel installations nor other green upgrades. All they can offer me is an unsecure line of credit. If that's the case, I think I'll scaling my project down a bit.
With Greengate Power and Copenhagen Infrastructure installing 1.3 million panels a few miles down the road from me, maybe they'd lend me a few bucks to install some panels.

[dnix71]

Here in south Florida we have people going door to door selling solar roof installs. What they don't tell you is that if you finance through them you will never see a dime because of finance charges. They tried to scam our church and I stood up and called them out. If you have cash just sitting around it might make sense. Like Crockel said I woud visit a Credit Union. In the US at least Credit Unions will not loan you more than something in worth if you fail to pay. If you want a car they will tell you what it is really worth and if you want to pay more it has to come out of your pocket up front.

The big issue in Florida is the weather. Our roofs last 20 years if well made. If you want to install solar it needs to be done when the roof is new because the panels will last much longer than that and have to be removed by professionals for a roof replacement. The power company has to get involved, too, as this is grid tied.

In Florida we are also subject to hurricanes, lightning, hail and tornados. The company that tried to scam our church ran away when confronted about not being willing to insure their install against weather related damage. We would have owed money on a non-functioning array if even lightning took it out. Only licensed professionals are allowed anywhere near a grid tie.

And then lastly, here panels must be cleaned occassionaly for best performance. There is a dirt test installl down the street from where I live. I haven't seen the data, but that array of panels at ground level got unspeakably nasty very quickly and there was a fence and legal warning signs to keep people away. I would have volunteered to clean them just to see how much of a difference it made.

[Crockel]

Thanks dnix71,
That's two things I'll have to consider. I'll have to make sure my installation has a good warrantee and is adequately insured. The installer I'm working with claims that rain and snow will keep the panels clear enough, but I have my doubts.
My roof is essentially two large slabs free of dormers and other interruptions so the installation should serve as a protection for my roof against wind and sun. If I do have some shingles to replace, I should be able to work around the panel installation.

It looks like my full project is back on. The federal government has finally made the loans they've been promising available. My first step to qualify is to qualify for the federal green homes grant. I have the auditor scheduled this week to inspect my home to get started on that.

[bigrockcandymountain]

I'm very glad you are posting on this topic.  You are pretty close to home and I get asked these questions a lot.  Keep us posted on how it goes. 

dnix71, would metal roofs not last more than 20 years there? Shingles only last 20 here, but metal will last twice that at least.  I hate shingles with a passion and we don't even have hurricanes. 

I would think the array is covered under your normal homeowner insurance, not by the company installing the panels. 

[dnix71]

bigrockcandymountain Metal roofs have only recently become common in residential construction. They should last 50 years. But the houses under them probably won't. Most of the single family homes in Broward are 50 years old already. The plumbing in my neighborhood is failing and the wiring is nowhere near current code. The past 2 years because of Covid, my neighborhood has been under continuous remodelling. People lost their jobs and homes and the homes were "flipped" for the next owner/tenant. I have seen very few new roofs on flipped houses, new roofs cost too much.

Fort Lauderdale willfully ignored doing buried sewer pipe replacements under the previous admin. It will take another 4 years before the replacements are done. In the mean time lift pipes keep bursting and flooding streets with raw poop.

Hurricanes are the wild card here.

The building code has been overhauled several times because each storm caused slightly different damage.

Andrew blew entire neighborhoods flat, ripped poles out of the ground and toppled HV towers in the Glades that carried Turkey Point's output north.

Irene dumped 17 inches of rain over 3 days from Lake O south. Florida is flat, the water sat in places for almost a month, it couldn't be pumped out and wouldn't run off fast enough.

Francis was a 700 mile diameter minimal storm that squatted over the entire state at once for a full day and a half and simply beat everything down.

Wilma's eye came up from the south and spawned tornadoes that toppled utility poles and damaged fuel pumps at Port Everglades. There was no fuel and no power for 3 weeks. Jeanne did the same kind of wind damage in Palm Beach County, no power for 2 weeks.

Opal hit the Panhandle and wiped out beach housing with wind and the storm surge. In Broward if you live east of US 1, you are expected to evacuate for even a category one storm because of the possible storm surge.

We are living on borrowed time here, and most people know it.

[bigrockcandymountain]

Wow, gotcha.  I had no idea it was that hopeless there.  Everyone here thinks of Florida as a paradise.  I can see why nobody wants to put a 50 year roof on a house when the future is that uncertain. 

Even here, metal roofs are rare.  Turns out most people only live in a house for 15 years, so spending extra on a 50 year roof isn't that popular. 

We live in the country, so it's a no brainer to build to last.  My family has been in the same area since the 1880's so the roots run pretty deep. 

[Crockel]

Yikes! There was a job opening in Florida that I was considering in 2015. The low cost of housing made it quite tempting. Maybe it's a good thing I didn't take it. I was worried about what the schools would have been like for the kids.

I experienced a Catagory 2 hurricane when Juan hit Nova Scotia. My house was undamaged, but most of the trees on my acreage were flattened including a 160 year old pine and a huge maple. I had no power for 10 days.

Considering the cost of a metal roof, you have to be pretty committed to staying in the same house for awhile to have one installed. That said, they are becoming quite popular in southern Alberta where the wind and strong sunlight are damaging to shingled roofs.

I'll have to see how soon I can get my solar panels installed. If it's going to be a couple years, I might just consider putting a metal roof on. It would have to be a DIY job. I put a metal roof on a horse shelter I built a couple years ago and was impressed by how well it went on. It would have been easier if the roof panels didn't blow off the box of my truck and across the property when the wind came up one night. Still, a metal roof on a shed and a metal roof on a house might be two very different things. I might have to watch a couple YouTube videos.

[SparWeb]

I've lived in my house (southern Alberta) for 18 years and I've replaced the roof shingles twice already.  It cost about 11k in the year 2010, and the insurance company paid for it after a hailstorm in 2017.  At this rate, it could get another pounding soon.  Since hail doesn't care if you bought the high-quality shingles or not, I now accept the argument that a 20-year life on the shingles doesn't do me any good.  My neighbour went the other way, and put up an all-metal roof and clad it all with hardie-board.

[Crockel]

UPDATE:
After having my home audited by the certified green homes inspector, the loan application for my solar panel installation has been approved.

Unfortunately, my project has hit a new snag. Fortis Alberta, the company that manages Alberta's electrical grid won't approve the application from my installer because my installation will produce 30% more power than I consume. You'd think that they'd want me producing excess green power to fight climate change and support. According to my installer, I need to prove to Fortis that my electrical consumption will increase in the future and is suggesting that I put a deposit on a Tesla. Living in rural southern Alberta, I'm pretty sure owning a Tesla would be in violation of my HOA.

[dnix71]

Crokel We say in America "Don't steal, the gov't hates competition." The power company doesn't like competition here either. Adding solar that reduces your bill is okay, but becoming your own power company makes them nervous.
To be fair, they have a lot more invested than you do and can't just walk away if things don't go well.

I got away with offgrid solar in south Florida for a long time because I simply used it instead of the grid whenever possible. In other words 2 sets of lights, 12v fridge and batteries inside where no one would see them. I told people it was hurricane prepardness and they accepted that. Having power after a major storm is always appreciated, esp if it doesn't involve a generaor. I had to take it down when the insurance company told the landlord they would cancel his policy otherwise. Jim didn't care. I paid my rent on time and kept good care of the place.

[SparWeb]

Crockel,
Congratulations and my condolences, at the same time.

Time to think laterally...  The following ideas are proposed in order of extremity, going from simple to drastic.

Did your certified green homes inspector do a site survey?  Evaluate the proposed panel installation?  Estimate annual production?
If yes to any of these, then this is an entry point to a solution.  There is a motivation among some to (forgive the pun) shine you on.  The more optimistic their survey, the better their monthly results and you go away a happy customer.  If it's possible to review the survey results and point out some exaggerations then you can shave off some margin of the annual energy production estimate.  Maybe enough that Fortis will approve your connection.

If that's not the case, or it's not enough, then consider the site and panels themselves.  You picked out an array of # panels.  Well how about less than #?

If there's no way you want to compromise on # panels, then consider the location you put them.  Roof mount?  What about using a different roof with a BAD slope?  Ground mount?  What about tilting them - too much?   Slap them on the wall instead of the roof.  Say it's to optimize production in winter when you need it most.

Are you going to extra expense to align and track them perfectly with the sun for all seasons and hours of the day?  Boosting the output with mechanical tracking is expensive.  Save yourself a fortune on complicated tracking and the reduction in output gets your system approved.

Are you contractually required to installed exactly # panels in exactly the same configuration and location as your site survey?  If your survey says one thing and you actually do another thing, will the police take you away in handcuffs?  If your survey says # panels and you actually order #+4 panels from the installation company that puts them up, will the sky fall?  If you install a rack 30 feet long and cover 20 feet of the rack panels, and also buy a couple "spare" panels from the installer in case a few are damaged or defective, then just where the heck are you going to store those extra panels for the next few years, eh?

You don't really have any downsides to being a major pain in the neck, because your approved loan is useless without the hook-up.

Another way to say what I'm saying is "fight fire with fire".  You're fighting nonsense, so use _________.

[Crockel]

I had to take it down when the insurance company told the landlord they would cancel his policy otherwise. Jim didn't care. I paid my rent on time and kept good care of the place.

Why would his insurance company care that you had solar panels? Fire hazard? If that's the case, I hope you didn't have a BBQ or smoker. They should search the place for candles too and outlaw matches. We can't have untrained non-professionals igniting combustible materials.

I might have to get the installer to reduce the number of panels. From the sounds of it, Fortis is very adamant about individuals not exceeding their usage. At least by reducing the size and cost of my installation, will reduce the amount in excess of the grant (still paid by the loan).

My goal was to generate as much excess as I can to sell to grid through the solar power coop at the higher green rate. Otherwise, I'm better off at doing what dnix did and run things off grid and save myself the transmission and distribution fees on my bill.

In the meantime, I put down a $150 refundable  deposit to order a Tesla Cybertruck. Just what I need. A giant battery powered doorstop.

The green home inspector gave some suggestions on installing panels (ground mount for easier cleaning), but did not review my proposed installation.

[SparWeb]

Then you might benefit from the Outback Radian.
https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150644.0.html

I've been looking at this for a while and now basically just waiting for one to pop up on Kijiji somewhere nearby.

[Crockel]

I haven't seen much for renewable energy supplies for sale on Kijiji. I'd been keeping my eye out for a windmill tower. I see them abandoned in every farmyard, but nobody ever seems to be selling them (except a guy out of Lethbridge who refurbished them).

I'll have to take a look at the Outback Radian. I'm not sure it would work for me, but it does sound interesting.

[SparWeb]

A few years ago I was curious enough to visit a few people who had (a) tall towers in their yards with (b) nothing on the towers.  I could tell that these were radio towers left behind by previous owners of the homestead.  In both cases I simply asked if they were willing to sell and each said "yes" - in a way...  the price was very high in one case, and in both I realized that removing the tower at my own expense would be horrendous. And I would be liable if anything went wrong.

I have three truss towers now. I bought each of them just as stacks of sections on the ground, and I could inspect their full length before handing over the cash.  Much better that way.

[Crockel]

It's finally done!
I got my permits and financing arranged and the panels are installed. Now I just need the electrician to come out and fix a couple things and the panels should be working.

[DamonHD]

Well done!

Rgds

Damon

[bigrockcandymountain]

Looks good.  I wouldn't mind panel, string, and inverter specifics and some updates on output.  The installed cost would be interesting too, but i understand if you don't want to share that.

Looks like a nice tidy install.  Congratulations. 

[SparWeb]

Hooray!

Yeah, we thrive on details, here.
After you've bored everyone in your family by endlessly talking about it, you can always come back here and share.

[Crockel]

I'm getting 38 Hanwha Q-Cell XL-G10.3 480 Watt panels with 10 Hoymiles HM-1500NT micro inverters. The capacity should be 16.9 kW DC.
The cost before taxes including permits and panel upgrades will be about $43k CAN. I might have gotten it cheaper had I gotten more quotes, but most of my quotes were for my initial plan for a smaller installation on the roof of my garage. I also wanted an installer who answered calls. I'm located in the middle of nowhere where a lot of installers don't serve. Most Calgary based companies won't come out as far as I am.
I've been mostly looking at how much power the installation will generate and pay for itself instead of the electrical specifics so I haven't been boring too many people.

[SparWeb]

Have we already suggested the PVWatts calculator?