Author Topic: Using Mosfets  (Read 2133 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Using Mosfets
« on: April 21, 2022, 05:09:33 AM »
This topic came up recently-

Quote
Quote from: Warpspeed
I had all kinds of problems with exploding mosfets, until I realised what was actually happening, and the cause of my problems were absolutely fascinating.

Over the years I have fried several thousands worth of mosfets. I eventually used this on each mostfet output. https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/tvs_diodes/littelfuse_tvs_diode_5kp_datasheet.pdf   UNI directional

When the coil voltage collapses it would burn out the FET. without the transient diode.

Im interested how you protected your Mosfet, and what caused it.

 

MagnetJuice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: ca
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2022, 10:39:42 AM »
JW, that link didn’t work for me.

I tweaked the search and came up with this:

https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/tvs_diodes/littelfuse_tvs_diode_5kp_datasheet.pdf.pdf

Is that the one you meant?

Ed
What can I do TODAY that would make TOMORROW a better world?

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2022, 01:21:36 PM »
Yes that's the one the one I'm using, it comes from- NTE  its- 5KP100A 1444

Thanks for correcting that link.

These back EMF problems are are hard to manage with Mosfets such as when to use a coil that the field collapses. It took a great deal of selection to locate that diode.

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 09:55:55 PM »
This topic came up recently-

Over the years I have fried several thousands worth of mosfets. I eventually used this on each mostfet output. https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/tvs_diodes/littelfuse_tvs_diode_5kp_datasheet.pdf   UNI directional

When the coil voltage collapses it would burn out the FET. without the transient diode.

Im interested how you protected your Mosfet, and what caused it.
Two main causes of mosfet death, over voltage, and over current.  Ignoring for the moment fake counterfeit parts that may not have anything like the "official" maximum rated specification for the part its supposed to be.

Overvoltage usually comes from the unrestrained release of stored magnetic energy in an inductive part of the circuit.
Current builds up in an inductor, and if the current abruptly stops, the collapsing magnetic field generates an essentially unlimited peak back emf voltage.  Only two things can limit the final amplitude the voltage spike can reach, either something breaks down, dissipating all the stored energy, or circuit capacitance absorbs all of the inductive energy, and the circuit will resonantly ring.

The instantly released energy can be quite high, so we need to differentiate between a single isolated over voltage event, and something that happens repetitively as a normal part of circuit design and functioning.

If its a single event type of problem, like "Bubba" suddenly disconnecting the load under full power, or a nearby lightning strike for example, a relatively small device can effectively absorb massive power for microseconds or milliseconds, but it must start out stone cold to be able to do so.

Transient voltage supression devices are ideal.  They can literally sink hundreds of amps and be no larger than a one watt resistor. The largest I have ever used myself, are the 1.5kW rated 1.5KExx series, where xx is the breakdown voltage. These have become pretty much the industry standard device, and breakdown voltages from 6.8 volts up to 400 volts are readily available. The 5kW rated devices in your link are exactly the same but larger.

The big limitation with all these, are that they are relatively small and can only absorb one big hit at a time. If they are receiving continuous small hit voltage spikes, they get rather hot and can burn up or unsolder themselves rather quickly.

For continuous over voltage protection, some mosfets are avalanche rated.  These are specially designed to go into non destructive conduction when the rated maximum mosfet voltage is reached.  The big advantage is that the mosfet's heatsink can help a very great deal with getting rid of all the extra heat generated. 

This needs to be used with some caution, as the extra heat and power generated by soaking up spikes can burn up the mosfet.  Avalanche ratings need to be carefully worked out to do it safely, but if the voltage spikes do not contain a lot of total energy, its one more available solution.

A third method for soaking up continuous not too aggressive voltage spikes is a snubber circuit. This usually consists of a diode, a capacitor and a resistor. If there is for example a high positive voltage spike, the diode can be arranged to divert that into a capacitor. If the capacitor is made sufficiently large, it will absorb most of the energy, without the voltage rising too much.  The resistor is arranged to continuously discharge the capacitor.  This works well for continuous low energy spikes that are fairly wide apart in time, so the resistor has ample time to fully discharge the capacitor before the next spike.

Over current will also blow mosfets. The heat generated literally melts the silicon, and the device goes dead shorted.
Three factors involved. How high the current, heat flow away from the silicon junction, and time.  Its a melting process, so time definitely comes into it. 

You can buy very fast acting semiconductor fuses, but they usually cost far more than the device being protected, so are very rarely used.  There are applications though where redundancy might require a failed mosfet to be isolated so the equipment can still work, but that would be pretty unusual.

The main factor in mosfet reliability is simply never exceeding the manufacturers maximum ratings.

That is all very greatly misunderstood by many people.  The way ratings are presented creates a very false impression of what a mosfet can actually safely do.

A silly example to illustrate.
A car may be able to do 150 miles per hour.
The same car might be able to get 30 miles to the gallon.
So someone thinks he can drive at 150 mph and get 30 mpg, and wonders why its not happening.....

Likewise mosfet maximum ratings need to be thoroughly understood, along with the safe rating curves and especially the de rating curves for safe thermal junction operating temperature.

Another example like the car one above.
Maximum rated voltage 400
Maximum rated current 15 amps
Maximum rated power dissipation 200 watts.
Maximum junction temperature 160 degrees.

So someone hooks it up to 380v and runs it at 10 amps maximum and wonders why it shorted out.

The manufacturers data sheet contains a very great deal of information, if its properly understood, and correctly applied, the device (if its not counterfeit) will almost certainly work very reliably without any nasty surprises.

The absolute maximum ratings are individual never to be reached values, and can never be used in combination.
If you want to push one particular rating to the limit, that is o/k, but you may have to vastly reduce a lot of other things to do it safely.


 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2022, 10:49:14 PM by Warpspeed »

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3175
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2022, 02:13:29 PM »
add in duty cycle...

that 380 volts at 10 amps may be tolerable for 10ms pulse use with a 90ms off time...

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2022, 05:03:09 PM »
The video that started all this :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TJQSOHgx8

Im a big Fan of PWM

Also we dont have ads here the only time you see one its on YT remotely hosted.

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2022, 08:41:59 PM »
O/k back on topic.
So that big bouncy pwm solenoid gizmo, is killing your mosfets.
I can understand that.

The first potential problem to check for, and probably the lesser evil is magnetic saturation.
When you apply a voltage, the current and magnetic flux ramp up, and at some point the magnetic circuit may saturate.
All the inductance then goes away. Peak current may then only be limited by the dc resistance in the circuit, which is probably very low indeed in your case.

The first thing to check is the current waveform with a Hall current sensor. It should be an almost linear ramp. If the current starts to increase exponentially, headed upward in an ever accelerating rhino horn shape towards infinity, the mosfet is not going to be happy.  That is unlikely to be your biggest issue, but its definitely something to check and be aware of.

The other more urgent issue you have already raised, is the release of stored magnetic energy, and the potentially mosfet killing voltages that can easily be developed.  There are only two ways to deal with that problem, either dissipate it and turn it into heat, or redirect the released magnetic energy to do something more useful.

The most basic solution is to place a diode across the inductance. That is normal practice with relays actuated through a transistor or a mosfet. That causes the magnetic flux to decay extremely slowly by clamping the back emf voltage to only one diode drop.

The higher you allow the back emf to rise on solenoid release, the faster the flux in the inductor will ramp down. But there is a definite limit to how far it can be allowed to rise before the back emf voltage becomes a threat to the mosfet.

There may also be a huge amount of energy involved if the solenoid is continuously driven with pwm, and not just infrequently switched on and off, as is usual with a relay.

I doubt if a dissipative clamp such as a transient voltage suppressor or a snubber circuit will be able to cope with pwm at such a very high power level.  Its also very wasteful of power, and the heat created everywhere will be fearsome.

A far more successful  and efficient approach to the whole problem will be a proper energy recovery circuit. That will reflect all of the stored magnetic energy back to the power source, where it can be stored in an electrolytic, and re used for the powering the solenoid on the next cycle.  Energy recovery in the low to mid ninety percent range is very easily achievable, and everything including the power source runs cooler with much less stress everywhere.

With what you appear to be doing, I can see two possible approaches to this. The first involves fitting a second energy recovery winding to your solenoid with the same number of turns as the main winding. That may not be attractive, even though the energy recovery winding can use thinner wire, it still takes up some physical space.

A better method is probably to use two switching mosfets instead of one in the half bridge diagonal configuration, along with two fast diodes.  That option involves a higher parts count and cost, but would be how I would prefer to go about it if it was my own project.
This is the basic idea:
14810-0
Both mosfets turn on and off simultaneously.
During the "on" time, current ramps up through the solenoid winding, right hand side being positive.
When both mosfets are turned off, the voltage across the solenoid reverses, being positive on the left hand side.

The voltage on the drain of the lower mosfet flies positive with great force, but it can only rise up as far as the positive supply voltage and no further.  Stored inductive energy flows through the left hand diode back into the electrolytic.

Voltage on the source of the right hand mosfet flies negative with equal force.  But its constrained by the right hand diode, and voltage across the upper mosfet can never exceed the dc supply voltage.  So both mosfets can never see a voltage greater than the dc supply voltage.

Current in the solenoid ramps down at the same rate that it ramped up in the forward direction, because the forward and flyback voltages are the same.

Not all of the forward stored inductive energy is recoverable, there will be conduction losses, and especially wasteful diode drop voltages. So you might have a situation that the peak forward current ramps up to fifty amps, but only forty five peak amps flow back into the electrolytic.

The wonderful thing about all this, is that the dc power supply only has to make up the missing five amps.  So there will be a massive circulating current between the electrolytic and the solenoid, but the dc power source only has to supply the circuit losses which in this example will be five amps.  It can actually be less than that in practice !

It can all be made to run very efficiently, there are no extra wasteful dissipative losses, and the mosfet maximum peak voltages are very well controlled.

Perhaps I am completely wasting my time here, maybe discussing food is more interesting.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2022, 09:27:34 PM »
Quote from: Warpspeed
Perhaps I am completely wasting my time here, maybe discussing food is more interesting.

Yes... I let the guy next-door borrow my copy of BIO Sphere 2 hard copy.

Food is a serious issue in this world, we see the pain of others and not only do we make tech accomplish.

Only the most selfish argue this point. I wish I could give you conformation that we care. 

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2022, 10:27:52 PM »
O/k, I won't post here any more about using mosfets then.

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2022, 12:21:33 AM »
o/k, I give up........

OperaHouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
  • Country: us
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2022, 04:53:24 PM »
Years ago, I had to make dots of glue, 3ms on and 3ms off, which is pretty fast for a solenoid.  While I never used this chip, I still remember it LM1949. They probably don't even make it anymore, but it had a nice application sheet explaining the dynamics.  Using a scope you can easily see how mechanically fast a relay is by watching the slope of the current change as the inductance varies. It is a lot of fun driving mechanical stuff. Just wish the FET you buy is what you expected. I feel sorry for anyone starting out in electronics today.  With all the fake parts it is hard for someone to build something that has a possibility of working.

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3175
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2022, 01:51:33 PM »
Years ago, I had to make dots of glue, 3ms on and 3ms off, which is pretty fast for a solenoid.  While I never used this chip, I still remember it LM1949. They probably don't even make it anymore, but it had a nice application sheet explaining the dynamics.  Using a scope you can easily see how mechanically fast a relay is by watching the slope of the current change as the inductance varies. It is a lot of fun driving mechanical stuff. Just wish the FET you buy is what you expected. I feel sorry for anyone starting out in electronics today.  With all the fake parts it is hard for someone to build something that has a possibility of working.

Why I point people with questions on where to buy parts towards Digi Key, Mouser, Allied Electronics... all 3 supply the electronics industry where a counterfeit part could run a multi million dollar production run so the chances of a counterfeit are a lot lower. I prefer Digi Key but they are located in MN so it is overnight shipping to me 99% of the time.

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2022, 05:05:56 PM »
Driving fuel injectors and stepper motors really fast is all pretty standard stuff these days.
There is no mystery, no secret science involved.
Regardless of scale, an inductor is still just an inductor.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1763
  • Country: 00
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2022, 11:43:37 PM »
i had heard somewhere that the irfz44 was actually used in full avalanche mode driving certain car fuel injectors.

thing is you need the reverse voltage across the coil to go to some significantly high value if you want the solenoid to close as fast as theoretically possible.

shorting the coil with a diode will hold it open as long as possible, it will still close of course because most solenoids are inefficient pieces of S, but, its a lot faster if you let the energy dump itself into the mosfet at 4-5 times the supply voltage. how long it lasts... well.. if you need a tvs diode across the fet then you're doing it wrong.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Warpspeed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: au
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2022, 09:45:36 PM »

Thing is, you need the reverse voltage across the coil to go to some significantly high value if you want the solenoid to close as fast as theoretically possible.

Shorting the coil with a diode will hold it open as long as possible, it will still close of course because most solenoids are inefficient pieces of S, but, its a lot faster if you let the energy dump itself into the mosfet at 4-5 times the supply voltage. how long it lasts... well.. if you need a tvs diode across the fet then you're doing it wrong.
All very true Joe.

Different applications require different solutions, but a big mechanical drive solenoid, or a linear motor, probably do not need to be made any faster ramping down, as ramping up the current.
So the reverse applied voltage need be no higher than the forward voltage.

That requirement is very easily and neatly met with the classic diagonal half bridge topology I suggested above.
Which is precisely why I suggested it.

And I fully agree that a TVS diode is a band aid solution that is just not required, unless its all being done wrong.

But its all a complete waste of time pointing any of this out.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Using Mosfets
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2022, 11:20:19 PM »