Author Topic: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?  (Read 1334 times)

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makenzie71

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Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« on: April 30, 2022, 12:03:24 PM »
The idea of using an airfoil makes sense in terms of keeping the blades stable and noise down and reducing drag, but why use a design that will generate lift "away" from the wind?  Wouldn't lifting into the wind be create more force?

MattM

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2022, 03:39:25 PM »
IMHO, yes, but using supercritical airflow not overwing.  The lift should resist the push of the wind.

I believe people are caught up in keeping a flat surface facing the wind. Mother Nature gave us some pretty alternatives, like a  bird silhoette.14820-0
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 02:16:17 PM by MattM »

Crockel

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2022, 01:12:23 AM »
Lift is always going to be perpendicular to the direction of the airflow (combination of wind and blade rotation) relative to the airfoil. Different airfoil shapes will generate higher lift and drag. I'm not sure how you'd generate lift into the wind other than by reducing drag. Maybe with a laminar  flow airfoil near the tips where the rotational speed component is higher.

I'm not sure if a supercritical airfoil will help. That's mostly for delaying transonic shock. Hopefully your wind turbine isn't spinning that fast. But a large turbine might have some high tip speeds.

MattM

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2022, 07:53:27 AM »
Yes, the tangential speed is higher than wind speed.  The underwing airflow is more akin to surfing on a layer of air locked in contact as laminar flow.  The shape of an aerofoil creates negative air pressure on the surface facing away from the wind.  The greatest lift is at the wing tips.  Supercritical flow twists into the wind.  Traditional airfoil twists the tip away from the wind.  Whether your turbine is in front or behind then the option least likely to strike your post would make most sense.  That's just my opinion.  And you know what they say about opinions.

I experimented with steel, which is flimsy on a flat plane.  So flimsy the flat blades would fold or deform due to the stresses.  The same mayerial shaped in an ogee was very strong and lasted for months, only failing due to fatigue at the edge of the rotor where twisting forces were resisted.  Metal twists just fine, but at the mounting point it focuses vibrations that travel the length of the blade.  Those vibrations are going to be there regardless of its airflow characteristics.  The coolest part about an ogee was its ability to true itself to the plane it rotated, so it doesn't move ahead of the rotor per se.  My mounting point to the plywood disks I used was the 'tail of the bird' so to speak.  The bends of the blade to form the ogee/s-curve shape were in the back section.  I started with curves but found no difference with straight bends.  Straight bends are easy to manufacture consistently.

Pretty lines of stress would form in wave-like cracks.  So obviously either the material chosen or how it was mounted - to resist twisting - was a poor choice.  The performance of the blade (albiet unloaded) was not disappointing.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 08:10:20 AM by MattM »

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2022, 02:29:01 PM »
The air flow around an airfoil in the wind tunnel is given in figure 3.1 of my public report KD 35. The air flow around an airfoil of a rotating blade section is given in figure 3.2 of KD 35. For both situations, there is only a small angle of attack alpha in between the direction of the relative wind W and the zero line of the airfoil. The lift L is large and the drag D is small for small angles alpha and this results in a small Cd/Cl ratio which is needed for a high maximum Cp (see chapter 4.3). KD 35 can be copied for free from my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2022, 01:48:38 AM »
The idea of using an airfoil makes sense in terms of keeping the blades stable and noise down and reducing drag, but why use a design that will generate lift "away" from the wind?  Wouldn't lifting into the wind be create more force?

Think of a propeller or wind turbine blade as a wing flying around in a circle.  It has an airfoil shape to minimize friction losses while it bends the (relative) wind, achieving lift (which is what it must do to convert power between shaft horsepower and air momentum.)

A propeller is trying to pull the airplane through the air by taking shaft horsepower and using it to pull the airplane forward by pulling the air backward.  So the lift is in a direction that is toward the wind and retarding the rotation. The hump is on the upwind side and the chord is angled slightly forward from exactly crosswise to the shaft as viewed from the side, with the blade's leading edge upwind of the trailing edge, so the leading edge encounters the apparent wind pretty much head-on. The airflow attaches to the blade, especially the humped upwind side of blade, at the leading edge, follows the curve, and leaves the trailing edge moving (relative to the blade) more toward the rear and less at right angles to the shaft.  The lift is forward (pulling the prop, and thus the plane, forward) and retarding rotation (energy is conserved so you've got to get that power from somewhere).

A HAWT blade is trying to slow the wind (to extract energy by reducing its momentum) and deliver that energy as shaft horsepower.  So the lift is in a direction that is away from the wind and encouraging the rotation.  Again the chord is angled slightly forward from exactly crosswise to the shaft as viewed from the side, with the blade's leading edge upwind of the trailing edge, but the hump is on the downwind side.  The airflow attaches to the blade, especially the humped downwind side of blade, at the leading edge, follows the curve, and leaves the trailing edge moving (relative to the blade) less toward the rear and more at right angles to the shaft.  The lift is rearward (pulling the turbine downwind and the air upwind, slowing the wind) and in the direction of rotation (energy is conserved so you've got to put that power somewhere - which is what you were after).

Make sense now?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 02:30:13 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

MattM

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2022, 08:17:38 AM »
I don't think lift on one side is the goal with a wind turbine.  The goal, correct me if I am wrong is to maximize conversion of airflow to mechanical energy.  How you get there is negotiable.

If it is possible to minimize moving parts, have ruggedness in the design, and require simple manufacturing techniques then its a big plus.  Aerofoils, in general, require simpler methods to manufacture.  I've seen most aerofoil shapes facing downwind in wind turbine projects, which seems to be what the OP alludes to in the first post.  The shape maximizes the straight line surface facing into the wind.  At the same time the downwind side is slicing perpendicularly into the wind at a slight angle of attack.  The aerofoil shape is at such a slight angle of attack that it will therefore generate downwind lift, which I believe the OP also is stating.  The lift is a byproduct of the design, not the goal.  The lift also generates twisting force, decreasing the angle of attack at the tips, therefore further worsening the problem as wind speeds increase.  The downwind side should not pull the shape off the perpendicular plane in an ideal word, but that pesky lift does exactly that.

I believe a sigmoidal form, which the word 'ogee' describes, would better serve the collection of energy by increasing surface facing into the wind.  The backside would also be better served by a sigmoidal/ogee shape that lifts into the wind, keeping the blade on that ideal perpendicular plane.  Air also never separates from the surface to cause low pressure downwind like on the aerofoil, and flows from both sides should neatly reconnect to minimize wave drag.  (It doesn't change induced drag, since overall the camber is similar.)  The forces on the front and back, top and bottom, will largely balance out.  The problem is that its a real PITA to shape with hand tools.  I made sheet metal ogee blades and they eventually succumb to fatigue.  Wood is much more difficult to shape into that form but is 10,000 times better with fatigue.

Wind turbine blades with conventional aerofoils are prone to breaking from tower strikes.  I believe the lift causes them to flex out of their ideal plane.  Wooden aircraft propellers have reached the same - if not higher - tip speeds without deforming like that.

topspeed

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2022, 01:58:03 AM »
The idea of using an airfoil makes sense in terms of keeping the blades stable and noise down and reducing drag, but why use a design that will generate lift "away" from the wind?  Wouldn't lifting into the wind be create more force?

Think of a propeller or wind turbine blade as a wing flying around in a circle.  It has an airfoil shape to minimize friction losses while it bends the (relative) wind, achieving lift (which is what it must do to convert power between shaft horsepower and air momentum.)

A propeller is trying to pull the airplane through the air by taking shaft horsepower and using it to pull the airplane forward by pulling the air backward.  So the lift is in a direction that is toward the wind and retarding the rotation. The hump is on the upwind side and the chord is angled slightly forward from exactly crosswise to the shaft as viewed from the side, with the blade's leading edge upwind of the trailing edge, so the leading edge encounters the apparent wind pretty much head-on. The airflow attaches to the blade, especially the humped upwind side of blade, at the leading edge, follows the curve, and leaves the trailing edge moving (relative to the blade) more toward the rear and less at right angles to the shaft.  The lift is forward (pulling the prop, and thus the plane, forward) and retarding rotation (energy is conserved so you've got to get that power from somewhere).

A HAWT blade is trying to slow the wind (to extract energy by reducing its momentum) and deliver that energy as shaft horsepower.  So the lift is in a direction that is away from the wind and encouraging the rotation.  Again the chord is angled slightly forward from exactly crosswise to the shaft as viewed from the side, with the blade's leading edge upwind of the trailing edge, but the hump is on the downwind side.  The airflow attaches to the blade, especially the humped downwind side of blade, at the leading edge, follows the curve, and leaves the trailing edge moving (relative to the blade) less toward the rear and more at right angles to the shaft.  The lift is rearward (pulling the turbine downwind and the air upwind, slowing the wind) and in the direction of rotation (energy is conserved so you've got to put that power somewhere - which is what you were after).

Make sense now?


Does this stress the blade so that it reaches the fatique faster ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

joestue

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2022, 02:15:41 AM »
so regardless of the direction of the force on the blade by the wind (which will vary with the number of blades, airfoil, and TSR), the wind turbine is going to exert an axial force on the wind in accordance with its power output. and its going to be somewhat proportional, and rising with the square of the windspeed assuming the percentage of power generated is constant.

really is no way to get around it, the axial thrust on a prop is the same as a wind turbine. just a different direction.



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topspeed

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2022, 03:46:41 AM »
so regardless of the direction of the force on the blade by the wind (which will vary with the number of blades, airfoil, and TSR), the wind turbine is going to exert an axial force on the wind in accordance with its power output. and its going to be somewhat proportional, and rising with the square of the windspeed assuming the percentage of power generated is constant.

really is no way to get around it, the axial thrust on a prop is the same as a wind turbine. just a different direction.

I am certain that in big turbines these forces has to be acting so that the bending of the blade is moderate.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2022, 06:15:13 PM »
It took me a bit to decypher joestue's theory.

The axial force is I assume the vortex wake, which flows off the wind turbine.  I'm not so sure what he is implying here, because the vortex will result from a fixed obstacle, and could care less if that obstacle was moving.  Drag creates a vortex, that's unavoidable.

Airplane propellers impact the air in their path of blade's axial movement, resulting in high pressure on the leading edge of contact and low pressure trailing the blade.  The airplane's engine controls the rotational speed of the blades.  That blade movement is along an axial plane.  The air in front of the airplane is always backfilling in the low pressure wake behind the blade and induces drag.  Fly faster there's more drag.  The drag from the forward flight does not increase or decrease with rotational speeds of the blade, it is a component of forward flight.  The air in front of the blade never adds to the thrust.

A wind turbine blade also impacts the air in their path of blade's axial movement, resulting in high pressure on the leading edge of contact and low pressure trailing the blade.  That movement is also along an axial plane.  It too is backfilling.  The difference is the drag in this case causes the rotation of the blade.  It is the prime mover.  You want the drag of the blade to maximize rotation speeds.  The drag along the axial path always slows the rotational speeds, never increases them. 

One thing is certain, the lift generated by a convential aerofoil is from increasing the distance along the surface for airflow to follow around the backside, creating a low pressure along that back surface.  There is no denying that there is going to be extra drag in that technique.  I just cannot fathom why people would want it, since air on the backside of the blade cannot convert drag to rotational energy.

The whole point of a sigmoidal backside is to increase/steepen the angle striking that axial air to reduce drag.  Likewise, the same shape on front of the turbine - the one wet by wind - creates a low pressure as the curve dips away from incoming air, to keep the air attached longer.  This is the side where you convert drag to rotation energy.  Since drag in unavoidable we should at least exploit where it helps and avoid where it does not.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 06:40:26 PM by MattM »

joestue

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2022, 02:19:32 AM »
i cannot understand any mechanism by which wind can do work on a propeller without exerting a net axial thrust on the propeller blade.
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2022, 03:23:35 AM »
i cannot understand any mechanism by which wind can do work on a propeller without exerting a net axial thrust on the propeller blade.

The lift and drag forces acting on a blade section of a rotating blade are given in figure 4.4 of my public report KD 35. These forces can be resolved into the direction of the rotor plane and perpendicular to the rotor plane.
The nett component of the tangential force in the direction of the rotor plane is given by formula 4.13 and contributes to the supplied power as power is the product of force times speed. In this formula it can be seen that the drag has a negative influence on the supplied power.
The nett component perpendicular to the rotor plane is given by formula 4.14 and contributes to the rotor thrust. In this formula it can be seen that the lift and the drag both contribute to the thrust.
The total power and the total thrust are found by taking the contribution of all blade sections and all blades together. The thrust component is much larger than the tangential component, especially near the blade tip, but the thrust component supplies no power as it is perpendicular to the direction of rotation.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 04:54:04 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

MattM

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2022, 08:20:04 AM »
i cannot understand any mechanism by which wind can do work on a propeller without exerting a net axial thrust on the propeller blade.
Axial thrust would be the force pushing the rotor/blades along the Z-plane, I assume you mean.  (I guess it could be considered Y plane in some realms.)  The power source is the difference between propeller and wind turbine.  A moving plane also has force against it in the same way as a wind turbine.  They wouldn't feather props if it wasn't a significant force when blade rotation is too slow or non-existemt.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2022, 12:17:17 PM »
The rotor thrust on the whole rotor, so the force in the direction of the rotor shaft, is given by formula 4.12 of my public report KD 35 if the direction of the wind is in parallel to the rotor shaft. If there is an angle delta in between the direction of the wind and the rotor shaft, the thrust is given by formula 7.4 of KD 35. It was found by Betz that the theoretical thrust coefficient Ct = 8/9 = 0.89. However, in practice Ct is lower because of tip losses and because the blade isn't effective up to the heart of the rotor. A value Ct = 0.7 up to Ct = 0,75 is a good practical value.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Why use "lifting" airfoils with turbine blades?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2022, 02:00:10 PM »
so regardless of the direction of the force on the blade by the wind (which will vary with the number of blades, airfoil, and TSR), the wind turbine is going to exert an axial force on the wind in accordance with its power output. and its going to be somewhat proportional, and rising with the square of the windspeed assuming the percentage of power generated is constant.

really is no way to get around it, the axial thrust on a prop is the same as a wind turbine. just a different direction.

Sorta roughly, yep.  (Energy goes with the cube, momentum with the square, forces with the change in momentum, assuming the same efficiency approximates assuming the equivalent change in momentum.  Not dead on because of aerodynamic effects that vary differently and these deviations amount to a small, but nontrivial, effect.)

Also regardless of what OTHER forces it applies to the wind.  The retarding force (along the axis in a "horizontal" {"into the wind"} axis turbine) is how the turbine extracts momentum, and thus energy, from the wind.  Other forces (e.g. sideways) may happen from details of how the particular turbine disposes of the slowed air and creates torque out of this momentum, (incidentally returning more of the energy to the departing air stream than the Betz limit demands).

A propeller-style HAWT deflects the air so it is rejected sideways and off-center (as viewed along the axis).  So this generates a torque on the shaft, much like that generated by a lawn sprinkler's off-axis water jets.  This also applies a counter-torque to the air, leaving a significant amount of energy (beyond what is required by Betz) in the downstream wind.  ("Spinning the wind" as I like to say.)

The blades' deflection of the airstream imparts both a radial-outward component (which spreads out the downstream air, as Betz' analysis shows is required to "make room" for the slower air stream leaving the turbine, as its venturi-principle higher pressure requires in free space) and an around-the-axis circular component (which deposits the counter-torque, along with still more of the energy, in the departing air).

The "torquing" of the departing air represents a substantial amount of loss, much of the shortfall from Betz.  So you'd like to keep it low.  Shaft horsepower is proportional to RPM x torque, so to lower the torque you raise the RPM.  Thus the higher the TSR, the less of your collected energy you throw back into the wind in order to generate shaft torque.  (also:  Higher RPM operation also allows lower costs and losses in the generator/alternator.)

Now raising TSR also raises your blades' (relative) windspeed, and thus your air friction and similar losses (tip vortices, etc.).  You might think this is a balancing act and there'd be an optimum design TSR (for a given airfoil) for a fixed-pitch turbine.  And indeed there would be.  (You can see this in the graphs of Cp vs. TSR, with Cp rising with TSR but curving down to rise more slowly at higher TSR.)  Except that it's high enough that another design factor comes into play first:

With a high enough TSR and a high wind, the airflow near the tip starts to go supersonic.  As it approaches that speed (and starts to go beyond it in patches) you get terrible vibration and all sorts of problems - like tearing the mill apart and throwing some of the pieces around at a substantial fraction of sonic speed.  So you'd like to keep it below that.  And you'd like to keep it below that even when a gust arrives before your furling system can react.  (Even if they didn't have this issue, spinning that fast would also require them to be very strong to keep the blades from tearing lose from the hub or breaking off, and flying away radially)

So homemade mills tend to be designed with TSRs as high as build strength and the risk of near-supersonic airflow allow.  6, for instance, still keeps you subsonic if you're freewheeling in a sustained 100 MPH wind and your structure will stand the RPM.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 10:49:53 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »