Author Topic: Axial flux generator  (Read 1765 times)

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beatfreak

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Axial flux generator
« on: May 10, 2022, 03:14:26 PM »
Hi all. Decided to build a wind turbine and thought I’d start with and axial flux generator. Going to build a small prototype first as I’ve got 48 n52 20x10x5 magnets left over from another project so I thought I’d use those in a 3 phase dual rotor 12 magnet (2x 20x10x5 magnets stacked) 9 coil setup.  Any suggestions re output voltage, wire gauge number of turns etc?

Many thanks

Jake

SparWeb

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2022, 11:52:16 PM »
Hi
and Welcome to Fieldlines!

That's a pretty typical starting point for a 12-volt alternator, of the style pioneered by Hugh Piggott a few decades ago.  Robust and simple.

Hugh has published many books and done seminars over the years (http://scoraigwind.co.uk/) so there's a lot of information you can choose from.
Here's one that quickly came to mind. https://scoraigwind.com/pmgbooklet/itpmg.pdf  He has also published a wind turbine recipe book that sets out the whole project start to finish.

The model being built in the online booklet is a little different from what you have in mind.  They use Ferrites not Neos, meaning their magnets need to be bigger.  The magnets you have are smaller, so I would recommend stacking them - and that sounds exactly like your plan already so cheers to that.

With smaller magnets, but more of them, you'll have more poles and more coils on the same diameter of disk.  9 coils is correct for a 3-phase alternator. 
If you can deal with the scale upward in number of magnets and coils, the other parameters you see in that PMG guide from Hugh Piggott should work out for you.

One thing that's a little hard to predict (lots of variables) is the speed at which it produces 12-volts to begin charging a battery (which actually happens more at 13-14 volts).  Tell us a bit more about how you would actually want to use the electricity the PMG makes and I can be more specific.
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beatfreak

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2022, 03:15:45 AM »
Hi, thanks for your reply.  I’d like the power produced to be of use despite this being a test before investing in the parts for a bigger project. I have some 12v lead acid batteries so I guess 14v would be the target voltage. I have the materials and electronics to make the parts required except motor winding wire which I’ll purchase once I’ve worked out a design. All other parameters (rotor size, stator size, blade length etc) can be based on the pmg design based on the magnets I have in stock.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2022, 06:59:37 AM »
In my post "Design of a PM-generator for a wind turbine" of November 26, 2021 it is described how the optimum winding for a certain PM-generator and a certain wind turbine rotor is found.

beatfreak

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2022, 11:15:40 AM »
Yikes, as simple as that lol

MagnetJuice

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2022, 04:18:40 PM »
Hi Jake,
I did some calculations using 12 of those double magnets per rotor with 9 coils.

I assume that 400 RPM would be reasonable speed for a PMG of that size to start charging a 12 Volt battery. Your blades would be about 36 inches in diameter (.91 m)

In that case you will need about 110 turns per coil of 20 Ga. Wire (.8 mm)

Power produced would be around 100 Watts, more or less, depending on the RPM.

The 12 magnets would fit on a disk of about 6.5 inches in diameter (165mm). It depends on how tight you wind the coils. I would wind the coils first and put them in a circle to find the approximate diameter for the rotor discs.

Any questions just ask.

Ed
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MattM

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2022, 07:52:17 AM »
Listen to Ed because he's speaking from true experience.

Keeping your diameter tighter seems to be better.  Not sure if its because the weight is relatively lighter because of less material involved, or if its something related to leverage.  But tighter, more compact diameters seems to be the better solution.

joestue

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2022, 01:57:33 AM »
Listen to Ed because he's speaking from true experience.

Keeping your diameter tighter seems to be better.  Not sure if its because the weight is relatively lighter because of less material involved, or if its something related to leverage.  But tighter, more compact diameters seems to be the better solution.

so unfortunately almost all of the academic simulations done concern magnets of a given volume, not a fixed block of a standard size.

I have been passively reading papers on this stuff for about 15 years now and i would strongly consider recommending that you build a 24 pole machine with a single layer of magnets 5mm thick, with the inside corners of the magnets almost touching each other.

the diameter will be 3 inches or 80mm for the inside radius of the magnets and 120mm diameter for the outside.

its the same repeating pattern of 4 magnets and 3 coils for a one layer machine.

if you build a mold to hold the wires while you press them in a press and glue the together then you can press the coils flat and get the air gap as small as practical.

since you're only looking at a coil about 5mm thick, 80mm id and 120mm od, its not a lot of copper to waste, if you decide that an even smaller, 12 pole machine with double stacked magnets is better.



in general, 6 to 10 poles of an inner diameter 1 third of the outer diameter gets you the best torque density when you define torque density by the total volume of the machine. but this required trapezoidal shaped magnets. your 1:2 ratio magnets prevent a T shape configuration from working well, and arranging them to be 20 by 30 mm is also not much better because this reduces the pole count to just 8 on each side.  -this is why i'm suggesting 24 poles is worth trying.

but when the magnets are the constraining factor and copper is of no cost, the optimal dimensions of the machine approach  almost laughable limits. think bicycle inner tube instead of crispy cream donut.

My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

kitestrings

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2022, 07:49:01 AM »
Quote
in general, 6 to 10 poles of an inner diameter 1 third of the outer diameter gets you the best torque density when you define torque density by the total volume of the machine.

Joe, can you explain this a bit more, maybe give an example?  I confess, I'm not following it.  Thanks.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2022, 02:13:20 PM »
An 8-pole axial flux PM-generator with circular magnets and a 1-layer, 3-phase winding with totally six coils also works fine for a very small wind turbine (see drawings and measurements of the VIRYA-1 generator as described in public report KD 679).

joestue

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2022, 08:28:27 PM »
Quote
in general, 6 to 10 poles of an inner diameter 1 third of the outer diameter gets you the best torque density when you define torque density by the total volume of the machine.

Joe, can you explain this a bit more, maybe give an example?  I confess, I'm not following it.  Thanks.

larger and fewer magnets have a shorter perimeter for the current to flow through the coils = more efficient. however, geometry constraints when trying to build something from a given set of magnets will ultimately prevail.

also when you have a choice between a 120mm diameter disk for a 24 pole machine vs a 60mm diameter disk for a 12 pole, the 24 pole is going to win because its bigger diameter means it can produce twice as much torque.. however you won't get the doubling of the torque for free because the coils (suppose we use the same volume of copper), are going to have a minimum perimeter of 60mm per magnet for 24 coils instead of an 80mm path for 12 coils.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 09:00:25 PM by joestue »
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2022, 01:57:03 AM »
Here is a direct link for Adriaan Kragten
htps://kdwindturbines.nl

htps://kdwindturbines.nl

Please, don't put direct links to my KD-reports on this forum. KD-reports can be reviewed or even cancelled. If you copy them directly from my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl, you always have the latests version.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 07:51:00 AM by JW »

JW

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2022, 07:49:24 AM »
Done sorry about that  :)

brandnewb

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2022, 04:50:04 AM »
I am also building a (VAW) turbine.

I hope you may have some use of my findings thus far.

For the generator I am considering a 96 pole repelling field axial setup.
All in an effort to produce around 400 volts at 120 rpm. In my believe turbines used in an urban setting should not rotate much faster else risk becoming dangerous when blades go play lawn darts.

The repelling field arrangement enables the diameter of the generator to be much smaller than a traditional arrangement.

please see my attachments. And I did not mean to hijack your thread but I am very open to suggestions. or shall I create a new thread?

14855-1
14856-2
14857-3

brandnewb

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Re: Axial flux generator
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2022, 04:59:35 AM »
Quote
in general, 6 to 10 poles of an inner diameter 1 third of the outer diameter gets you the best torque density when you define torque density by the total volume of the machine.

Joe, can you explain this a bit more, maybe give an example?  I confess, I'm not following it.  Thanks.

larger and fewer magnets have a shorter perimeter for the current to flow through the coils = more efficient. however, geometry constraints when trying to build something from a given set of magnets will ultimately prevail.

also when you have a choice between a 120mm diameter disk for a 24 pole machine vs a 60mm diameter disk for a 12 pole, the 24 pole is going to win because its bigger diameter means it can produce twice as much torque.. however you won't get the doubling of the torque for free because the coils (suppose we use the same volume of copper), are going to have a minimum perimeter of 60mm per magnet for 24 coils instead of an 80mm path for 12 coils.

Perhaps I misunderstood. But its not the diameter of the turbine blades of greatest influence to available torque? Or did you mean the greater the generator diameter the greater the ability to produce a breaking force?
I could be way misinformed though. I will apologize preemptivly