Author Topic: new hydrogen storage method  (Read 2069 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
new hydrogen storage method
« on: July 21, 2022, 10:39:36 PM »
some may have an interest in hydrogen . here is a new way to store the pesky stuff
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnewatlas.com%2Fenergy%2Fmechanochemical-breakthrough-unlocks-cheap-safe-powdered-hydrogen%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0CW2q2vtI1yK5g5Mz9YvR75WCJiF_7NmrDXrcdHb8sf0GgBBRchcJrlYo&h=AT2NJNFlCMrYhoHgX5nGGETQJ0vRjPKO3Tkv2HNrUVpRdzIaPGULxRk5Oq-O19m8iieVq-Bjf4WLIcvpwGoQE1o13d6wJYdjHpbHmdycdPVCyJc7L3GfOTBKJ2raLKx-kwnvZbrpG6pHRwW9D2x4FzYAhMuy3fZv9y4e38g&__tn__=H-R&c[0]=AT3VG5NcfLPhyzpnHENwSbVkXjzVv0KQuKKh6moPV6EXjB0yaDzge06cpNex1uJP7N-SX2rxjkPkgzc2vZ3p6LdvUA2GBsxX3llYCGVWFGgu-cTxHl3BTMY33xmlsvVY9rexntJin33V8oRJrNivjCwjGM4FoBddiwe3zDmIiX6KseakgYzdWl2eiCc41QIDOSxno3nBeF9Gyw

MagnetJuice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: ca
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2022, 12:51:48 PM »
What can I do TODAY that would make TOMORROW a better world?

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Country: us
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2022, 01:39:42 PM »
Rocket fuel.

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2022, 10:00:43 AM »
hey thanks for posting a good link.  when mine wouldn't work i went back but couldn't find the original article
 hydrogen has always been of interest to me since i made my first electrolysis apparatus age 12.
making hydrogen from wind is what got me started here at Fieldlines.

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2022, 04:12:39 PM »
How much hydrogen is lost in oil well operation? If there was a cheap way to trap and store it before it vented oil well operators could make extra $ selling it. Same for refineries.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2022, 04:48:40 PM »
I too have made hydrogen in glassware I chose to ignite it and it was a powerful blue flash. Electrolysis will make O2 as well. I believe its called browns gas.   

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2022, 11:52:12 AM »
Hydrogen via electrolysis is very inefficient. You input way more energy than you get out. If you have a dump load and are hitting it often it would pay but otherwise? Nope!

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2022, 09:04:01 AM »
Conventional alkaline electrolysis has an efficiency of about 70%. Accounting for the accepted use of the higher heat value (because inefficiency via heat can be redirected back into the system to create the steam required by the catalyst), average working efficiencies for PEM electrolysis are around 80%.

Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia

the electrolysis occurs with as little as 2 volts.
the more current you put through the cell the hotter the electrolyte gets.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Country: 00
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2022, 07:32:21 PM »
Conventional alkaline electrolysis has an efficiency of about 70%. Accounting for the accepted use of the higher heat value (because inefficiency via heat can be redirected back into the system to create the steam required by the catalyst), average working efficiencies for PEM electrolysis are around 80%.

Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia

the electrolysis occurs with as little as 2 volts.
the more current you put through the cell the hotter the electrolyte gets.

i think you only need 1.1 volts.
edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2022, 10:18:29 PM »
even better
 ;D
so, if electrolysis is 70%  efficient, I'm thinking that 30% is heating up the electrolyte.
i wonder if that hot electrolyte could be incorporated into a hot water heating system .
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 09:00:25 AM by electrondady1 »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2022, 02:45:12 PM »
:)

I have always been critical about a hydrogen economy. I just think water is too precious as a resource. If you studied a successful BIO Sphere project you would see that clearly. edit-  you would get your fuel from vegetation.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Country: 00
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2022, 06:47:49 PM »
even better
 ;D
so, if electrolysis is 70%  efficient, I'm thinking that 30% is heating up the electrolyte.
i wonder if that hot electrolyte could be incorporated into a hot water heating system .
in the rare case where electricity is useful for resistive heat, sure.

you can get 80% efficiency by running the cell at 3k psi. no compressor needed
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

aka47

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Country: gb
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2022, 10:13:54 AM »
On water being a precious resource.

I don't think it is. 7 tenths of the earths surface is covered by water and it is rising.

I will concede though that the problem we have is the wrong sort of water in the wrong places. If we put as much effort into it as we did with say an electricity grid it would not be a problem. It is just because we are lazy and expect it to fall out of the sky for us. Like it usually does.

We could help ourselves with getting more of the right sort of water by dumping less crap into it. We would not need to rely as heavily on the sun to distil it for us then. We could also help ourselves by catching more of that which does fall out of the sky on us.

On hydrogen storage/use, I think this one is always going to be challenging due to the nature of hydrogen. I would rather put some effort into carbon capture and methane production through the sabatier (or a better) process. At least the infrastructure is there to use the Methane as it is after all what natural gas is mostly made up of. many people already have the piping and appliances to use it. A certain amount of hydrogen is needed to do this and this for me is as good a way as any to store the hydrogen without any special technology or infrastructure rebuild, along with the recovered carbon. At least till someone uses it and it goes full cycle again.

Methane has some big plusses, it stays in the vessels and pipes you put it in and it does not embrittle them.

On condensing electricity into gas (Hydrogen, Methane etc). I see this as being very much as valid a way of storing electricity as any other. I don't think we should see carbon as an enemy, We just have too much of it in the wrong places. there is nothing on this mud ball that wasn't here before. We just seem to insist on piling it all up in the wrong places and then wallowing in it.

Some thoughts for what they are worth.
Tolerance is a two way street

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2022, 11:09:04 AM »
If we can keep the globalists from driving us back into  the dark ages, i feel hopeful about the future.

 i know that anaerobic bacteria can turn politicians and just about anything else we don't want into methane (CH4) .

Thorium reactors can consume radioactive waste.

The plants in my garden like pee

 !

 

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5374
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2022, 02:06:09 PM »

The plants in my garden like pee
 
>:D

Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2022, 05:20:58 PM »
Another reference to a BIO sphere project. A biosphere consumes water and converts it into solid carbon.

Water is not able to act like a terrarium. ie closed system. Its just not there.

Matter is not able to be created or destroyed. -edit- The earth is bombarded by micro comets everyday, that is the source of our water.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 05:37:36 PM by JW »

aka47

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Country: gb
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2022, 06:41:12 AM »
Another reference to a BIO sphere project. A biosphere consumes water and converts it into solid carbon.

Water is not able to act like a terrarium. ie closed system. Its just not there.

Matter is not able to be created or destroyed. -edit- The earth is bombarded by micro comets everyday, that is the source of our water.

Yeah I struggle with the chemistry of that biosphere statement. There is no carbon in water. At a chemical and particle level It is all just rearrangement. With sufficient technological intervention then a closed biosphere is doable with enough energy to drive it. But non trivial. We need to master this one better so that space travel will become practical.

Splitting hydrogen off in gaseous form and industrial/planet-wide energy supply quantities is I think a way to deplete our resource. Simply as hydrogen is nearly as light as it gets and takes every opportunity to shove off. Even through the walls of vessels made from stuff that we might otherwise consider to be impermeable. Splitting it off as part of a reforming process though that immediately re-captures it in a less escapist form has got to be good.

Water may become scarcer eventually when we start using it all up for reaction mass and fuel for starships. But at least then we will be able to bring more water back from elsewhere. This won't happen till crisis point caused by self induced scarcity. Pushing matter down a gravity well is much cheaper and easier than trying to haul it up one.

On matter being neither created not destroyed. This statement gets messy when you drill down into it and it depends on at what resolution you are looking, together with what you consider matter to be. If anyone is bored look up "Pair Production" in the context of high energy particle physics. A Photon (No mass, and arguably pure energy, so therefore arguably not matter) passing through the fields of an atomic nucleus can and does spontaneously convert into an electron and a positron providing the photon energy is greater than the energy of the rest mass of the two particles that are created. An electron and a positron having mass are arguably matter having mass and being possessed of some energy. I found this a bit unsettling and mind blowing when I read about it.

It is true though to say that energy, mass and momentum are interchangeable and their product is conserved. If this is the meaning behind matter is neither nor created nor destroyed I think we could be in agreement.

The earth is not a terrarium style sealed biosphere, but it is probably more like a gold fish bowl type ecosystem. Where all our water came from I have no idea. Looking elsewhere in our solar system though we might seem to have more than our fair share of it though. So simple micro comet delivery is an interesting idea but there should be the same amount everywhere else as well. Especially where a planets gravity well is bigger/stronger. But elsewhere it is less likely to be water that we would recognise being either solid or gas, nor is it swilling around uncontrollably on the surface like here. So I am not sure on this one as yet till we go out there and look closer up.

Water could turn out to be more prolific in all its forms than we currently think.

On synthesised methane production I think the big problem with this one is that the oil lobby will be very quick to seize upon it as a way to continue with their business model, despite the damage it causes. Using petrochems as a concentrated and convenient conversion feedstock is a little too easy (And conveniently business as usual) for them to pass up.

Petrol etc and a certain number of petroleum fractions used to be a waste by product, till auto-motion took care of it and made it valuable. Surplus was burned off up flare stacks. The move to electric auto-motion will make this come around again. It will be interesting to see if catalytic conversion, reformation and organic chemistry have come along enough by then that the pilling up waste products can be profitably re-used for something else. In the mean time it is going to seriously disrupt the petrochems business model.

A hydrogen economy then is good news for the oil companies that are a little more serious about de-carbonisation as they can arguably strip out the carbon into solid or liquid form leaving a hydrogen surplus. Plastics and other bulk chemicals (Ethylene, Ammonium Nitrate etc etc etc) are the mainstay of the petrochems industry after all.

On globalisation, I think despite opposition it is pretty much inevitable. The world has become a much smaller place in my life to date and transit times are reducing. At the moment Globalisation is a touch "Wild West" driven by short term financial gain whatever the cost. I think we probably need to move beyond this and introduce long term sustainability into the driving equation as a counter Ballance or go back to the horse and cart.  Either driver taken to extremes and excluding the other is bad.

Personally as a life long technologist and forward looking person I don't fancy the horse and cart as anything other than a fun pastime.

Tolerance is a two way street

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2022, 02:04:30 PM »
The breakthrough will be a cold fusion process that is sealed. And will last 20+ years. Your house will have one delivered to power it(no more unsightly transmission lines) and when it gets low it will dial home to be replaced. It will be a monthly lease item and will be equivalent to your current electric/gas bills combined.

Just dreaming but somebody out there is going to try something everybody else says will never work and it will have an unexpected result. Until that next step in our technological evolution happens we are stuck with oil and natural gas. Current electric car model is not sustainable, the raw materials mining/processing/toxic waste at end of life is just as damaging as burning oil/gas to produce energy.

Local junk yards refuse to take ANY electric vehicles unless he battery is removed. To big of a chance of a fire when they move(huge forklift speared thru the body at times)/crush/shred them for material separation. Modern vehicles have a fairly large amount of magnesium in the rims and engines and they will burn if the fire is hot enough, like a lithium battery fire...

Had an electric car fire on the county road that passes by my house. Guy pulled up to the stop to turn to the next small town and smelled smoke in the car, then saw flames coming out from under it. It burned so hot the glass shattered then melted into the blacktop! There is a melted glass outline of the car embedded in the pavement!!!! Fire department couldn't put it out, so they let it burn out. From what I was told they cleaned up the remains with a bobcat bucket... that was all that was left... a bucket full of bits that didn't burn or melt.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2022, 04:56:26 PM »
All biosphere projects are not created equal.

With the carbon to water etc.

The type of biosphere that we were working on, were in order of external combustion for the carbon.

There is a goal of a lunar base and mars colony. Your going to have to create a breathable atmosphere. So using external combustion this can be achieved. We figured about 7 square acres of a biomass crop that can produce o2. The combustion burner will produce co2. If a balance can be achieved the environment is habitual. external combustion could produce a energy supply.   
 

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2022, 10:47:05 AM »
Matter is not able to be created or destroyed. -edit- The earth is bombarded by micro comets everyday, that is the source of our water.

That's a dirty secret in the science business. If the source of earth's water is from space it upends the timetables and support for how life arose. It wasn't until the US sent up a double camera satellite to investigate the sun that they saw infrared spots and streaks raining down on the earth. Both cameras captured the same set of spots and streaks so it wasn't a bad camera, and the only other common compound that blocks IR is ammonia. If 40 tons/sec of ammonia was raining down on us we would know it and be in big trouble. It's nice to have trees making O2, but the water coming in adds to that as it is ionized coming in. Things are not what we have been taught.

A lunar base would be much easier to sustain if regular supplies of water could be sent, along with micronutrient supplements.

An even bigger issue is the destruction a lack of gravity causes the body. People need gravity and walking upright to circulate blood and fluids. Low gravity permanently destroys the ability to focus the eyes by changing their shape. Bones and muscles suffer, too. https://thedebrief.org/why-do-vision-problems-plague-astronauts-in-zero-gravity/

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2022, 03:21:06 PM »
 
Quote from: dnix71/
It's nice to have trees making O2, but the water coming in adds to that as it is ionized coming in. Things are not what we have been taught.]

That's true more o2 is produced by the oceans.

One of the things about the BIO sphere 2 out in Arizona is that they had a large salt water tanks. The process/application caused really bad rust on the support links making the super structure, they should have hot-dipped the steel members. There also a issue with the concrete base/footing was not fully cured and it interfered with the atmosphere.

The biomass could be anything you want to farm.

On the salt water tanks- They tried to make a too complex marine life. Something like that should be more symbol. I spent a lot of years in the Florida keys (big pine key) There were several blocked off canals. These canals were blocked off because they were dug too deep and the fear of sharks going in there was what caused them to block off them.

   The life in those canals could live thru anything there was soft shell oysters, blue crabs there they ate the oysters. I also think about food the blue crab are good to eat. Also there should be chickens some place.

There was something that was discovered with the external combustion system. As the air/atmosphere past thru the combustion chamber it would sterilize air.     

   s

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Country: us
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2022, 07:53:41 PM »
There is some thought that the earth began as a ball of dirt with a series of freeze and thaw cycles on the shallow permanent ocean on top of the dirt mass.  Something hit the earth so hard a conical wave thrust a super continent up on the opposite side of the world.  Supposedly the ring of fire in the Pacific is remnant of a similar event.  The big problem with the theory is earth has grown and there was smidge lower gravity at the time because we had far less water, too.  The theory also doesn't explain why the cracks around the globe looks like a baseball skin, but there's more we don't know than do.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1762
  • Country: 00
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2022, 01:19:49 AM »
The pacific may indeed be a crater. Some have speculated it is the crater from when the moon was split off from the earth, but i'm not convinced of that, I think that the earth's crust has moved around too much since then and all evidence would be long gone in 2 billion years.

I am a dyed in the wool christian conspiracy theorist from early childhood rebellions against the dogma i was taught.. but not in the sense that most people know. Its not hard to imagine that earth's water came from space and we need to admit we don't know the rate at which that happened. might have been sudden enough to create the nearly global "flood" stories. (which could also have been ice dams breaking 11,000 years ago). Take the bible for example. Drop the sea level 200 feet and you need to re-draw the maps of the entire middle east. sort of throws a monkey wrench into entire nation's alleged right to exist doesn't it. oops.. oh and the red sea crossing is a miss translation. its the reed sea crossing in the nile delta. the water is usually only a few feet deep. don't dare say that publically though.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

aka47

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Country: gb
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2022, 06:12:13 AM »
I think it is fair to say that everything here came from space one way or another. and there is still stuff inbound.

How and when though are the interesting questions. As well as how do we re-distribute it to our advantage without killing everything off.
Tolerance is a two way street

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2022, 11:25:14 AM »
this conversation has taken some interesting turns .
in addition to hydrogen i have always had an interest in ancient history and archeology.
 up until recently it was thought the Egyptians were  the earliest  civilization  at 5 ,000 b.c.

Recently a series of structures were discovered at a place called gobleki teppi  in southern Turky
these have been proven (Carbon 14 ) to have been intentionally buried around 10,000 years ago.
the latest  thinking is human civilization is much older than  we have previously thought.
the biblical flood was real and was a result of a comet or meteorite impact on the  Laurentide Ice Sheet  just about where Saginaw Michigan is now.
since the ice was two miles thick at the time there was no impact crater. but the heat generated created massive flooding.
you Americans may be familiar with a geological feature known as the Carolina bays. thousands of very large oval shaped depressions. It is now believed they were created when mountain size chunks of ice  thrown up in to the atmosphere and impacted  the earth.  when the ice melted  it left those depressions.
  the time period in question is referred to as  " The Younger Dryas"



 


« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 04:41:04 PM by electrondady1 »

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2022, 12:10:22 PM »
The pacific may indeed be a crater. Some have speculated it is the crater from when the moon was split off from the earth, but i'm not convinced of that, I think that the earth's crust has moved around too much since then and all evidence would be long gone in 2 billion years.

I am a dyed in the wool christian conspiracy theorist from early childhood rebellions against the dogma i was taught.. but not in the sense that most people know. Its not hard to imagine that earth's water came from space and we need to admit we don't know the rate at which that happened. might have been sudden enough to create the nearly global "flood" stories. (which could also have been ice dams breaking 11,000 years ago). Take the bible for example. Drop the sea level 200 feet and you need to re-draw the maps of the entire middle east. sort of throws a monkey wrench into entire nation's alleged right to exist doesn't it. oops.. oh and the red sea crossing is a miss translation. its the reed sea crossing in the nile delta. the water is usually only a few feet deep. don't dare say that publically though.

Look at the lifespans in the bible... who's to say they weren't a lot longer than ours are now making the Adam and Eve timeline much further in the past than we think...

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5374
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2022, 02:06:14 PM »
electrondady1;
Found out about that very subject no too long ago. Our daughter is an Archeology major and just recently returned from the Iklaina, Greece dig site. Even there they are finding items older than what they initially thought.

I think I even saw on one of the history channel's U-tube posts about why Lake Superior is so deep.

Cheers
Bruce S

 
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1177
  • Country: us
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2022, 08:00:02 AM »
I have a feeling we aren't the first or last civilization on this planet.  There are precision machine marks in the Hindu temples ranging from India to Thailand.  The architecture links them all together.  And in Egypt there is 30,000 years worth of history in hieroglyphs.  We can barely see what's left of American civilization since 100 years ago, so its amazing any of it survives.  We literally only have their buried trash to study.

I wonder what powered these civilizations.  Surely they had similar resource constraints.

hiker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1661
  • BIG DOG
Re: new hydrogen storage method
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2022, 01:33:54 PM »
Infinity,,no Doubt this old world has been turned inside out countless times,,no Doubt some poor dude a Trillion years ago  wondered the same ,,as he was having his Mourning cup of Java,,🙏💕🇺🇸
WILD in ALASKA