Author Topic: Why my wind generator is producing same or just a bit above battery voltage ?  (Read 1921 times)

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colombo

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Hello everyone,

I've recently purchased a second hand but unused wind turbine.
I'm off grid and wanted to have a complement of power when my solar panels are not producing, during the night and also during the rain season as my place is open to regular winds of 18 to 25 mph winds.
Wind turbine is 1kw power rated for 48v and 20a. It's a chinese wind turbine, 3 blades, 2 meters in diameter, mounted on a 9 meters mast. Distance to wind controller is 150ft length, wire is 5 awg (aluminium) for each phase.
Charge controller is a PWM hybrid wind & solar with a external dump load resistance.
Battery setup : 4 x agm 12v 220ah
1500w of solar panels with a victron mppt regulator.
Both regulators negative terminals are connected on victron BMV shunt.

My concern is that the wind turbine never generate more voltage than the battery bank voltage.
For example, for a same wind force, if my battery voltage is 47v, the wind turbine will produce a maximum of 47v output voltage. If battery voltage is 54v, wind turbine will reach 54v but never exceed it, or for only few seconds.
It seems that the hybrid regulator is limiting the wind turbine output too low.
This charge controller is very basic, it shows voltage, amp and watts but there is no way to change charge voltage settings.
I've tried to connect 300w solar panels to it with the wind turbine, and all the power is going to the dump load that become very hot.

I'm thinking of a kind of discordance between the mppt and the pwm regulator. Or a incorrect battery load setting with the pwm regulator. But as i'm new to wind turbine, the problem could be something else.

Any help will be greatly appreciated to solve my problem.


MagnetJuice

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I have no idea what the problem could be, but I found these.

15221-0

What model is your Victron?

Maybe others here can help.

Ed
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bigrockcandymountain

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That sounds like it is operating normally to me.  If the turbine is direct connected to the batteries it will always be at battery voltage.  The amperage output will change with wind speed, but the voltage will always be battery voltage. 

I guess the question is, are you seeing amperage out of the turbine?

colombo

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Thank you for the replies !

Ed, my solar regulator is a Victron 150/45 48v. Regarding pictures, my installation is correct.

bigrockcandymountain, the wind generator is not supposed to put higher voltage than battery bank to charge it ?
In fact, i've never seen, on the hybrid controller screen, the turbine voltage be higher than battery voltage.
Also, i've noticed that there is a discordance between battery voltage showed on hybrid regulator and the one on the BMV.
For example, if BMV indicates battery bank is 50,00 v, hybrid regulator will show a battery voltage of 50,20 v at same time.
This difference of 0,20 v is normal ?
I will see some amperage (on hybrid screen monitor and BMV) but very few, 1 or 2 A at max, for no more than 2-3 seconds.
When i connect auxilliary solar panels (300w) to the hybrid regulator with wind turbine connected, i did not see any more amperage on the BVM, and dump load start to heat a lot.
I think it is not normal that wind turbine can't produce more than 47 volts when batteries are at this charge level, with very strong winds, and reach easily 54 volts with less winds when batteries are in floating charge.
Would it be interesting to deconnect victron regulator and see how the hybrid controller will run ?

makenzie71

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How big is your battery bank?  How are you measuring voltage?  Are you CERTAIN it's a 48v turbine?

colombo

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How big is your battery bank?  How are you measuring voltage?  Are you CERTAIN it's a 48v turbine?

Battery bank : 4 x AGM 12v 220ah in series.
Label on wind turbine : "Rated 48v 20A" model : EW-1000
I would like to put external links but it is not allowed.

I've just checked battery voltage (at same moment) :
Victron mppt (on bluetooth ap) : 51,61v
BMV (victron) : 51,62v
Hybrid wind/solar controleller (lcd screen monitor) : 51,84v
Cheap multimeter on battery bank terminals : 52,10v

makenzie71

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Take a picture of the wind controller you’re using, and another specifically of the display, and one of the turbine and send them to toysforwatts@gmail.com

Is the turbine spinning really fast when it’s running or barely turning?  How much wind are you seeing?

MagnetJuice

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Colombo, is this what you have?

15230-0

Ed
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colombo

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Yes Ed, it is that model

colombo

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Take a picture of the wind controller you’re using, and another specifically of the display, and one of the turbine and send them to toysforwatts@gmail.com

Is the turbine spinning really fast when it’s running or barely turning?  How much wind are you seeing?

Ok, i will send you that later today.
The turbine is spinning very fast, wind is 25/30 mph today, and turbine voltage output still always stall just above battery voltage. This morning battery voltage was 47v and despite stronger winds, the maximum turbine output was 46.80v, now battery bank is 57v in absorption phase thanks to solar panels, and wind turbine output is 56 v at max with weaker winds than this morning.

colombo

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Last update : Battery bank is 58v now (still in absorption phase) and the wind turbine is spinning very slowly (still very good wind).
I think hybrid controller is in brake mode, but dump load resistance is still cold.

makenzie71

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Spinning very fast but not charging suggests that the turbine is not properly connected to the batteries or it’s a 24v turbine.  That’s why i would like t9 see exactly what controller you have and what it’s telling you.  If it’s spinning very slowly in a high wind now then most likely the brake is on, the resistor won’t be warm unless the turbine is still turning rather quickly.  If the brake come on to bring it to a stop it’ll get warm right there at the beginning, but will cool off after the turbine stops.

hiker

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Hmm what about about a bad rectifier .diode  ,,?
WILD in ALASKA

Mary B

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Turbine output voltage will be clamped down to battery voltage with a simple dump load type regulator... As BV rises so will turbine V

joestue

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does this thing short out the turbine to prevent it from turning.. if the high winds push the voltage at the turbine up too high with the dump resistor activated?

there is almost certainly going to be a diode between the turbine rectifier and the battery, so the turbine can be shorted out and dump load cold, yet the turbine is spinning slowly in high winds.

My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

makenzie71

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Turbine output voltage will be clamped down to battery voltage with a simple dump load type regulator... As BV rises so will turbine V

To a certain degree yes but it should be showing power going into the bank and the voltage should steadily rise...unless it's a very small turbine you should be able to see it bringing the bank up.

colombo

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Take a picture of the wind controller you’re using, and another specifically of the display, and one of the turbine and send them to toysforwatts@gmail.com

Is the turbine spinning really fast when it’s running or barely turning?  How much wind are you seeing?

Data sheet and video sent to your email

colombo

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Turbine output voltage will be clamped down to battery voltage with a simple dump load type regulator... As BV rises so will turbine V

To a certain degree yes but it should be showing power going into the bank and the voltage should steadily rise...unless it's a very small turbine you should be able to see it bringing the bank up.

Tonight, wind is still strong but not regular. Solar panels are not producing anything, so BMV is indicating i'm loosing -2,00 amp (fridge on with few led lights). When the wind turbine start to spin very fast for some minutes, BMV show that amperage consumption is reduced to -0,5A to zero A but no positive amperage (furtively seen a +0,1A or 0,2A for 1 second). Battery bank is 51v and wind turbine output stall at 50.8 or 51v despite long and strong wind gusts.
Could internal charging presets of the wind charge controller be incorrects ?
As there is no way to change charge values using front controler buttons, i've oppened it. There is 3 blue potentiometers with small screws on the motherboard, is it possible to adjust voltage thresholds by turning the tiny screws ?

colombo

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Here is what is inside the hybrid controller :



Close up on the 3 potentiometers :



Any clue about function and settings of this 3 potentiometers ?



colombo

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Hmm what about about a bad rectifier .diode  ,,?

How to check it ?
Under the motherboard, there is a module with 5 entry terminals (3 linked to each wind turbine wire and 2 linked to solar panels), and 2 output terminals (one is linked to positive battery terminal) should it be a AC/DC rectifier ?

makenzie71

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If the diode was bad it wouldn't detect the turbine at all.

Okay so the first thing to check is to make sure the turbine is correctly connected to the controller.  It's not a very big turbine, if one phase isn't connected correctly you wouldn't even have enough output to charge your battery bank much less run with any kind of load.

Disconnect the turbine from the controller and measure resistance between each of the three wires (L1-L2, L2-L3, and L1-L3).  All three should be roughly the same, none of them should read as a dead short or infinite.  You need to do this when there's no wind and the turbine is stopped.

Next you need to check AC voltage while the turbine is running.  You can do this while it's still connected to the controller and battery bank.  You'll check the same way (L1-L2, L2-L3, and L1-L3).  All three should be roughly the same and pretty close to battery voltage if it's connected to the battery bank.  If you're checking voltage while free wheeling even in light wind it should exceed 48v easily.

If you have a resistance or voltage disparity then you have a bad wire, a short, a bad slip ring, or the generator is bad.  If it can't exceed battery voltage while free wheeling then you have a 24v turbine.

Double and triple check that you have the turbine connected to the correct terminals on the controller and that it is set up correctly.  I don't have a lot of experience with those little controllers but what little I do have did not impress me much.


hiker

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If it’s a 3 phase gen  one phase could have a blown diode or diodes ,, do all 3 phases have the same voltage before The  3phase rectifier or how ever it’s wired to produce DC,,
WILD in ALASKA

colombo

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Ok, so i took the measurements :

Stopped wind turbine, resistance values are pretty the same between each wire, no dead short or infinite.
Also i've checked, all the 3 wires are correctly connected to the controller.
Then, i've checked voltage on each wire when turbine free weeling.
At very low rotating speed (like turning with hands) each wire show 20-25v
At a medium rotating speed (when you just start to hear blades rotation noise) voltage is 30-40v on each wire.

Sounds like it is a 24v wind turbine as you have presumed at first.
 :-\
Is there any option to use a 24v wind turbine with a 48v setup ?

makenzie71

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Unfortunately no there's not a any great way to boost voltage up to make it more appropriate for a 48v system.  What I would recommend is that you reach out to the vendor and tell them you ordered a 48v turbine, if the blades are spinning fast enough to start singing then you should be WAY over the 48v mark unloaded.  I would hope you paid with a credit card, that way if they give you any trouble in replacing the turbine you can reach out to your card provider for a resolution.  I've had to do that with a couple of poorly made turbines and my card provider always backed me up.

If you're only seeing 40v with the turbine freewheeling it might struggle to even see decent wattage at 24v.  If you'd like to check you might try temporarily hooking it up to a pair of 12v batteries just to see how it performs, but if you need a 48v turbine it'll be empty results.

colombo

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Thank you a lot for your advice and technical expertise and also thanks to all forum members who helped me in this thread.
I will try to solve the problem with the vendor (sale on local classified).
Anyway, in case of issue not solved, what is the more pertinent and feasable way to make this wind turbine to produce something like at least 100 to 300 watt with the constant 25 mph winds i have ?
Move to a mppt wind turbine controller with boost function ?
I don't need a lot of power, my concern is to have a almost constant small power to keep batteries charged during nights and also to help solar panels during days on rain season.
For example is it possible to connect the 3 phases to a DC rectifier, then to a kind of voltage booster connected to the solar panel input on the hybrid charge controller (lack of brake control) ?
Or generator winding modification ?

makenzie71

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Voltage boosters never work...or I've never seen one work...but you can always slap a Fisher & Paykel motor on it and wire it up for 48v.  I did that with one of my little Chinese turbines...too the whole bearing assembly from an LG washing machine and bolted to the front of the turbine.

Whole playlist is here:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTrFLWc8ummKqpwRguozKCh3UqFrh5Dr6


Mary B

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Thank you a lot for your advice and technical expertise and also thanks to all forum members who helped me in this thread.
I will try to solve the problem with the vendor (sale on local classified).
Anyway, in case of issue not solved, what is the more pertinent and feasable way to make this wind turbine to produce something like at least 100 to 300 watt with the constant 25 mph winds i have ?
Move to a mppt wind turbine controller with boost function ?
I don't need a lot of power, my concern is to have a almost constant small power to keep batteries charged during nights and also to help solar panels during days on rain season.
For example is it possible to connect the 3 phases to a DC rectifier, then to a kind of voltage booster connected to the solar panel input on the hybrid charge controller (lack of brake control) ?
Or generator winding modification ?

I didn't look at the manual... any possibility of jumpers inside the turbine that need to be set for 48 volts?

Adriaan Kragten

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You have to distinguish the open battery voltage, the open DC voltage coming from the rectifier of the wind turbine and the loaded voltage. Lets first assume that no battery charge controller is connected and that the DC output of the rectifier isn't connected to the batteries.

If you measure the open battery voltage of a 48 V lead acid battery, it is about 48 V for a 10 % full battery and about 50.4 V for a 90 % full battery. If you measure the open voltage at the DC output of the rectifier, it depends on the rotational speed of the generator and so it depends on the wind speed. If it is a nominal 48 V wind turbine, the open voltage can easily become a factor three higher than 48 V so about 150 V at high wind speeds. How high depends on the safety system of the wind turbine. If the DC output of the rectifier is coupled to the battery, a current starts flowing as soon as the open DC voltage of the rectifier is higher than the open battery voltage. The current increases about proportional with the voltage difference but the current also depends very much on the generator size. So during charging there is only one voltage and that is the loaded voltage.

It has to be prevented that a full battery is over charged. This is normally done by a battery charge controller which consists out of a voltage controller and a dump load. This device limits the maximum charging voltage up to 2.3 V per cell and so up to 24 * 2.3 = 55.2 V for a 48 V battery. So if this voltage is reached, a part of the generated current goes into the battery and a part goes into the dump load. However, if the battery charge controller is adjusted at for instance 2.1 V per cell so at 24 * 2.1 = 50.4 V, the dump load starts extracting energy much to early.

I would do the following. Disconnect the battery charge controller and disconnect the rectifier from the battery. Measure the open DC voltage at the rectifier. You should measure an open voltage of 48 V already at a wind speed of about 3 m/s. Don't do this at high wind speeds because the you may blow your rectifier diodes if the voltage becomes very high. Next connect the DC output of the rectifier to the battery and measure voltage and current. You should see that the loaded voltage increases a little at increasing current. If you measure almost no current, it means that the generator is very small and may be too small for a rotor with a diameter of 2 m. But if the combination of rotor, rectifier and battery works nicely, you know that your problem comes from the battery charge controller.

Next, couple the battery charge controller to the battery. If this controller works nicely, the dump load of it should only take a current if the loaded voltage has reached the 55.2 V level. If it starts taking energy at a lower voltage, the adjusted maximum voltage is too low. At my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl there is a free manual at the bottom of the list with KD-reports of a 27.6 V, 200 W battery charge controller in which this procedure is explained in detail. The maximum charging voltage of its voltage controller can be adjusted but it might be that this isn't possible for your controller.

It might also be that you think that you have a problem but that there is no problem at all. You write that you are using four 12 V, 220 Ah batteries. These are very large batteries and for a small current, the required loaded voltage is only a little higher than the open voltage. If the generator of the wind turbine is too small, it can supply only a low current of some Amps at moderate wind speeds. The charging voltage of a very large battery will hardly increase for this low current. If the batteries are charged at the same time by a big solar pannel which can supply large currents, the real charging voltage will mainly be determined by the big solar panel and so a small wind turbine will have only a very little influence on the charging voltage.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 02:36:39 PM by Adriaan Kragten »

colombo

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Quote
I didn't look at the manual... any possibility of jumpers inside the turbine that need to be set for 48 volts?

Unfortunately not, wires exit directly from stator and linked to slip ring, there is nothing else inside.

colombo

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Voltage boosters never work...or I've never seen one work...but you can always slap a Fisher & Paykel motor on it and wire it up for 48v.  I did that with one of my little Chinese turbines...too the whole bearing assembly from an LG washing machine and bolted to the front of the turbine.

Whole playlist is here:  youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTrFLWc8ummKqpwRguozKCh3UqFrh5Dr6

Amazing ! very interesting videos and impressives results.

colombo

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You have to distinguish the open battery voltage, the open DC voltage coming from the rectifier of the wind turbine and the loaded voltage. Lets first assume that no battery charge controller is connected and that the DC output of the rectifier isn't connected to the batteries.

If you measure the open battery voltage of a 48 V lead acid battery, it is about 48 V for a 10 % full battery and about 50.4 V for a 90 % full battery. If you measure the open voltage at the DC output of the rectifier, it depends on the rotational speed of the generator and so it depends on the wind speed. If it is a nominal 48 V wind turbine, the open voltage can easily become a factor three higher than 48 V so about 150 V at high wind speeds. How high depends on the safety system of the wind turbine. If the DC output of the rectifier is coupled to the battery, a current starts flowing as soon as the open DC voltage of the rectifier is higher than the open battery voltage. The current increases about proportional with the voltage difference but the current also depends very much on the generator size. So during charging there is only one voltage and that is the loaded voltage.

It has to be prevented that a full battery is over charged. This is normally done by a battery charge controller which consists out of a voltage controller and a dump load. This device limits the maximum charging voltage up to 2.3 V per cell and so up to 24 * 2.3 = 55.2 V for a 48 V battery. So if this voltage is reached, a part of the generated current goes into the battery and a part goes into the dump load. However, if the battery charge controller is adjusted at for instance 2.1 V per cell so at 24 * 2.1 = 50.4 V, the dump load starts extracting energy much to early.

I would do the following. Disconnect the battery charge controller and disconnect the rectifier from the battery. Measure the open DC voltage at the rectifier. You should measure an open voltage of 48 V already at a wind speed of about 3 m/s. Don't do this at high wind speeds because the you may blow your rectifier diodes if the voltage becomes very high. Next connect the DC output of the rectifier to the battery and measure voltage and current. You should see that the loaded voltage increases a little at increasing current. If you measure almost no current, it means that the generator is very small and may be too small for a rotor with a diameter of 2 m. But if the combination of rotor, rectifier and battery works nicely, you know that your problem comes from the battery charge controller.

Next, couple the battery charge controller to the battery. If this controller works nicely, the dump load of it should only take a current if the loaded voltage has reached the 55.2 V level. If it starts taking energy at a lower voltage, the adjusted maximum voltage is too low. At my website: kdwindturbines.nl there is a free manual at the bottom of the list with KD-reports of a 27.6 V, 200 W battery charge controller in which this procedure is explained in detail. The maximum charging voltage of its voltage controller can be adjusted but it might be that this isn't possible for your controller.

It might also be that you think that you have a problem but that there is no problem at all. You write that you are using four 12 V, 220 Ah batteries. These are very large batteries and for a small current, the required loaded voltage is only a little higher than the open voltage. If the generator of the wind turbine is too small, it can supply only a low current of some Amps at moderate wind speeds. The charging voltage of a very large battery will hardly increase for this low current. If the batteries are charged at the same time by a big solar pannel which can supply large currents, the real charging voltage will mainly be determined by the big solar panel and so a small wind turbine will have only a very little influence on the charging voltage.

Thank you for your intrsuctive reply.
The rectifier is inside the charge controller on the back of the mainboard.
I'm waiting to receive a 40A 3 phase rectifier i've previously ordered, once i have it, i will do the tests you have mentionned.
But i'm not really optimistic, i've never seen more than 45v on each phase when wind turbine disconnected to the controller, even with winds of 6-8 m/s.
Last night, we had a little storm with gusts of 40 mph. I've seen on the controler that wind turbine was producing during gusts (for 4 to 8 seconds only) a maximum power of 300w (50v for 6A) with battery voltage around 50v. 

Adriaan Kragten

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A problem with these small Chinese wind turbines is that a very high rated power is mentioned for a rather small rotor diameter. Often these wind turbines have no effective safety system and so a high power can be generated but only at very high wind speeds. So you buy a 300 W wind turbine but the power you really get at moderate wind speeds will be very low. The electrical power is given by formula 4.2 of my public report KD 35. With this formula, it can be calculated that you can expect a maximum electrical power of about 75 W for a rotor diameter of 2 m and a wind speed of 5 m/s. However, many small wind turbines supply much less because of a low maximum Cp of the rotor, a low generator efficiency and bad matching in between rotor and generator.