Author Topic: One wing vawt ?!  (Read 1507 times)

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topspeed

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One wing vawt ?!
« on: February 12, 2023, 03:28:51 PM »
There have been a lot of 3-5 wing/blade and even 2 winged ones as I have, but how many have seen one blade ones ?

Why are they not the mainstream ?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 04:05:11 PM by topspeed »
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

joestue

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2023, 09:03:36 PM »
With one wing you would need a motor to start it... Unless its a combined drag/ lift, where you have a motor rotate the blade in real time with each revolution, you could then twist the blade one way, swing half way, twist it the other, swing back the other, then twist again and maybe make one full revolution. Like a child making it all the way over the top of a swingset!

One wing horizontal were made but too hard to make work dynamically. In theory they have the highest tsr and the least torque.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2023, 12:22:08 AM »
With one wing you would need a motor to start it... Unless its a combined drag/ lift, where you have a motor rotate the blade in real time with each revolution, you could then twist the blade one way, swing half way, twist it the other, swing back the other, then twist again and maybe make one full revolution. Like a child making it all the way over the top of a swingset!

One wing horizontal were made but too hard to make work dynamically. In theory they have the highest tsr and the least torque.

Yes....and there is one rotating in Africa as we speak.

I found out only yesterday about this system. It is from my country...I was wondering why my innovation does not proceed, but sorta like a "inside team" from old Nokia people here in Finland are behind it.

I wish them the best of luck !

 :o ;D
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2023, 06:25:50 AM »
Pictures or it didn't happen. /s

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2023, 07:11:13 AM »
I think that a 1-bladed Darrieus rotor will give even more vibration problems than a 2-bladed one. Only for three and more blades, there is a certain balancing effect in between the changing thrust acting on each blade. This can be compared to the gyroscopic moment of a 3-bladed HAWT. The bending moment of every single blade varies according to a sin^2 function but the resulting moment of all three blades on the rotor shaft is constant.

In the period 1970-1975 of the Dutch organisation CWD, a 1-bladed HAWT with a design tip speed ratio of about 10 was developed by the Wind Energy Group of the University of Technology Twente. The blade had a hinge at the hub and a balancing weight at the other side. So the blade could move backwards at wind gusts. It had no vane and it turned behind the tower. It showed a very strange behaviour. At strong variations of the wind speed and the wind direction, the head could turn 180° making that the rotor was now rotating in front of the tower. This may be caused by the hinge in the blade or by the fact that no vane was used.

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2023, 09:03:28 AM »
Pictures or it didn't happen. /s

I haven't seen any.  :)
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2023, 09:06:28 AM »
I think that a 1-bladed Darrieus rotor will give even more vibration problems than a 2-bladed one. Only for three and more blades, there is a certain balancing effect in between the changing thrust acting on each blade. This can be compared to the gyroscopic moment of a 3-bladed HAWT. The bending moment of every single blade varies according to a sin^2 function but the resulting moment of all three blades on the rotor shaft is constant.

In the period 1970-1975 of the Dutch organisation CWD, a 1-bladed HAWT with a design tip speed ratio of about 10 was developed by the Wind Energy Group of the University of Technology Twente. The blade had a hinge at the hub and a balancing weight at the other side. So the blade could move backwards at wind gusts. It had no vane and it turned behind the tower. It showed a very strange behaviour. At strong variations of the wind speed and the wind direction, the head could turn 180° making that the rotor was now rotating in front of the tower. This may be caused by the hinge in the blade or by the fact that no vane was used.

This guy I have talked with says he has it figured it out....but he is after the same funding as I am so...so he certainly "must have figured out everything".

Go figure.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

TomT

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2023, 10:30:30 AM »
Found This.

youtu.be/U_75cxa3q9A

MattM

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2023, 10:18:55 PM »
The caveat is that its an 18 inch blade on a 20 inch diameter.  Would be interesting to see it scale up.

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2023, 03:20:29 AM »
The caveat is that its an 18 inch blade on a 20 inch diameter.  Would be interesting to see it scale up.

This specimen that is here appers to be 27,5 m2 with 5 meters spanning wing...very close to the prediction of yours in proportions.

Counterweight is several hundred pounds.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

mbouwer

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2023, 08:13:22 AM »
Do you also find the presentation of Agile Wind Power (Vertical Sky Windmill) with its modern technology and blade adjustment so fascinating?




Adriaan Kragten

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2023, 09:49:14 AM »
Do you also find the presentation of Agile Wind Power (Vertical Sky Windmill) with its modern technology and blade adjustment so fascinating?

(Attachment Link)

I don't understand why they have used a lattice tower. This will give a lot of turbulence and this disturbes the flow around the airfoil when the back blade passes the wake of the tower. If you would use blades of the same length and weight in a HAWT you will get a swept rotor area which is about a factor six higher. And you also get a higher maximum Cp. So the amount of power out of the same amount of material is at least a factor seven higher. As this design has only one connection point for the blades to the hub half way the rotor height, the bending moment in the blades due to the lift and the centrifugal force must be very high and so the blades must be very strong at this point. How can people think that this design can compete with a HAWT?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 10:01:28 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

Mary B

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2023, 11:32:21 AM »
Do you also find the presentation of Agile Wind Power (Vertical Sky Windmill) with its modern technology and blade adjustment so fascinating?

(Attachment Link)

I don't understand why they have used a lattice tower. This will give a lot of turbulence and this disturbes the flow around the airfoil when the back blade passes the wake of the tower. If you would use blades of the same length and weight in a HAWT you will get a swept rotor area which is about a factor six higher. And you also get a higher maximum Cp. So the amount of power out of the same amount of material is at least a factor seven higher. As this design has only one connection point for the blades to the hub half way the rotor height, the bending moment in the blades due to the lift and the centrifugal force must be very high and so the blades must be very strong at this point. How can people think that this design can compete with a HAWT?

Lattice tower could mean no space for guy wires or guy wires would interfere with land use(farming/grazing). Some zoning laws specify towers must be free standing because guy wires are ugly...

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2023, 11:15:07 PM »
ANEW B-1 tower looks pretty good.

These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2023, 11:17:38 PM »
Do you also find the presentation of Agile Wind Power (Vertical Sky Windmill) with its modern technology and blade adjustment so fascinating?

(Attachment Link)

I don't understand why they have used a lattice tower. This will give a lot of turbulence and this disturbes the flow around the airfoil when the back blade passes the wake of the tower. If you would use blades of the same length and weight in a HAWT you will get a swept rotor area which is about a factor six higher. And you also get a higher maximum Cp. So the amount of power out of the same amount of material is at least a factor seven higher. As this design has only one connection point for the blades to the hub half way the rotor height, the bending moment in the blades due to the lift and the centrifugal force must be very high and so the blades must be very strong at this point. How can people think that this design can compete with a HAWT?

These are less expensive in many ways.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2023, 03:25:53 AM »
My main concern was not the lattice tower but the large amount of used material for the given swept area. In the photo it can be seen that the diameter D is about half the height H. So the swept area is 1/2 H^2. A HAWT with a radius R = H has a swept area pi * H^2 so more than a factor 6 higher.

The centrifugal force in the blades of a H-Darrieus rotor works perpendicular to the blade and it works always to the outside of the rotor. It gives a large bending moment in the blade root for a rotor with only one spoke assembly. The thrust force workes to the inside of the rotor if the blade is at the front side but to the outside if the blade is at the back side. So this is a fatigue load which has to be added to the load of the centrifugal force. So the total bending moment is maximal for the back blade. As there is only one spoke assembly half way the rotor height, the blade must be very strong where it is connected to the end of a spoke.

The centrifugal force in the blades of a HAWT works in the direction of the blade if the blade is turning in the rotor plane. So then it gives no bending moment in the blade root. The thrust force works perpendicular to the blade and it gives a bending moment in the blade root. However, if the blade bends backwards due to this thrust moment, the centrifugal force gives a forwards moment which partly compensates the moment of the thrust.

The design tip speed ratio lambda of a HAWT can be chosen in between 1 and about 10. Most big 3-bladed rotors have a lambda of about 8 resulting in a low solidity. The lambda of a H-Darrieus rotor has only one optimal value for a certain airfoil. In report KD 601, I have found that this lambda is about 4.2 for the NACA 0015 airfoil. If the lambda is chosen smaller than 4.2, the angle of attack alpha at the front and back blade becomes that large that the airfoil stalls. If the lambda is chosen larger than 4.2, alpha become smaller than the angle for which the Cd/Cl ratio is minimal. Because of the rather low lambda, a H-Darrieus rotor needs a rather large solidity and so the blades are rather heavy. Apart from the blades, one also needs a spoke assembly which connects the blades to the hub. To minimise drag losses of these spokes, they must have an aerodynamic shape. The weigh of a spokes has to be added to the weight of the blades. I think that therefore the weight of this H-Darrieus rotor will be about the same as that of a HAWT with a radius R = H.

In the photo it can be seen that the blades can turn around the blade axis. I expect that there is a mechanism in the spokes with which the three blades are connected to each other. Blade pitch control can have two good reasons for a H-Darrieus rotor. One is to make the rotor self starting and one is to limit the rotational speed at high wind speeds. To make the rotor self starting, the blade angle beta must be positive for the front blade and negative for the back blade. This requires a cyclic movement of the blade. To limit the rotational speed at high wind speeds by increasing the drag on the airfoil by stalling, beta must be negative at the front blade and positive at the back blade. So this also requires cyclic movement of the blade. Technically this is possible but it is rather complicated as it must also take the wind direction into account. Instead of a mechanical coupling in between the three blades, one also can use an individual motor which steeres each blade but then the motors have to be synchronised with each other and with the wind direction. So the pitch control mechanism of this H-Darrieus rotor will be more complicated and so more expensive than that of a normal big HAWT.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 05:37:18 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2023, 12:07:32 AM »
My main concern was not the lattice tower but the large amount of used material for the given swept area. In the photo it can be seen that the diameter D is about half the height H. So the swept area is 1/2 H^2. A HAWT with a radius R = H has a swept area pi * H^2 so more than a factor 6 higher.

The centrifugal force in the blades of a H-Darrieus rotor works perpendicular to the blade and it works always to the outside of the rotor. It gives a large bending moment in the blade root for a rotor with only one spoke assembly. The thrust force workes to the inside of the rotor if the blade is at the front side but to the outside if the blade is at the back side. So this is a fatigue load which has to be added to the load of the centrifugal force. So the total bending moment is maximal for the back blade. As there is only one spoke assembly half way the rotor height, the blade must be very strong where it is connected to the end of a spoke.

The centrifugal force in the blades of a HAWT works in the direction of the blade if the blade is turning in the rotor plane. So then it gives no bending moment in the blade root. The thrust force works perpendicular to the blade and it gives a bending moment in the blade root. However, if the blade bends backwards due to this thrust moment, the centrifugal force gives a forwards moment which partly compensates the moment of the thrust.

The design tip speed ratio lambda of a HAWT can be chosen in between 1 and about 10. Most big 3-bladed rotors have a lambda of about 8 resulting in a low solidity. The lambda of a H-Darrieus rotor has only one optimal value for a certain airfoil. In report KD 601, I have found that this lambda is about 4.2 for the NACA 0015 airfoil. If the lambda is chosen smaller than 4.2, the angle of attack alpha at the front and back blade becomes that large that the airfoil stalls. If the lambda is chosen larger than 4.2, alpha become smaller than the angle for which the Cd/Cl ratio is minimal. Because of the rather low lambda, a H-Darrieus rotor needs a rather large solidity and so the blades are rather heavy. Apart from the blades, one also needs a spoke assembly which connects the blades to the hub. To minimise drag losses of these spokes, they must have an aerodynamic shape. The weigh of a spokes has to be added to the weight of the blades. I think that therefore the weight of this H-Darrieus rotor will be about the same as that of a HAWT with a radius R = H.

In the photo it can be seen that the blades can turn around the blade axis. I expect that there is a mechanism in the spokes with which the three blades are connected to each other. Blade pitch control can have two good reasons for a H-Darrieus rotor. One is to make the rotor self starting and one is to limit the rotational speed at high wind speeds. To make the rotor self starting, the blade angle beta must be positive for the front blade and negative for the back blade. This requires a cyclic movement of the blade. To limit the rotational speed at high wind speeds by increasing the drag on the airfoil by stalling, beta must be negative at the front blade and positive at the back blade. So this also requires cyclic movement of the blade. Technically this is possible but it is rather complicated as it must also take the wind direction into account. Instead of a mechanical coupling in between the three blades, one also can use an individual motor which steeres each blade but then the motors have to be synchronised with each other and with the wind direction. So the pitch control mechanism of this H-Darrieus rotor will be more complicated and so more expensive than that of a normal big HAWT.

Adriaan you have a point the 30 million + repairs was not well spent on the swiss design.

Lattice tower sucks and sinusoidal control of the pitch angle was already deemed useless in the McDonnell Aircraft Co Giromill attempt in 1975-1981.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 03:22:47 PM by topspeed »
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2023, 03:09:02 AM »
A seasoned HAWT expert told me Boeing tried and tested a VAWT with one wing.

Anyone have this Erich Hau written book...where it is supposed to be ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

Crockel

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2023, 07:08:32 PM »
I've been considering building a one bladed Savonius VAWT, not because it will work, but mostly to measure the torque generated by different blade designs over 360 degrees of wind direction.

topspeed

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Re: One wing vawt ?!
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2023, 02:45:51 AM »
I've been considering building a one bladed Savonius VAWT, not because it will work, but mostly to measure the torque generated by different blade designs over 360 degrees of wind direction.

I have been tracing the origins of a one blade VAWT.

It is from US.

Erich Hau did not have one bladed VAWT but a HAWT in his book.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals