Can I use this to build a wind turbine? Potters wheel!

[rich33]

I have a potters wheel with a blown motor controller.

It has a massive direct drive brushless motor and a very heavy duty main bearing.

Not sure the wattage but it's designed for slow rotation, being direct drive.

Would this be a good candidate for building a turbine with?

[makenzie71]

Can you see the actual motor?  If so, can you take a picture of it and post it?  You might have to email it to me I think this forum says you're not allowed to post pics until you've been here a while...toysforwatts at gmail.com

If it's a big three phase disc motor, which I have seen on potters wheels, then yes it'll work.  It won't make a particularly powerful turbine but it'll work well.  It's the same kind of motor as used on direct drive washing machines.

If it has a big DC motor, which is more common but not quite you describe, then it would still work but not great.

[rich33]

Makenzie71, just emailed a photo. The whole thing is rated at 300w so its unlikely to to be that useful, but the head of the potters wheel would make a perfect hub for putting blades onto. I'm just interested in making something to play with really.

 

[makenzie71]

Yeah that'll work, that's a three phase axial motor.  Won't make a ton of power but it'll be a fun little project.

pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/6xQL2i4

[rich33]

Yeah that'll work, that's a three phase axial motor.  Won't make a ton of power but it'll be a fun little project.

Thanks. I'm thinking I will try a VAWT first as I can use it more or less as is.

I assume that as the motor runs at mains voltages, it's going to output a lot of volts.

(Looking forward to seeing the Istabreeze Heli 4 working on your YT channel!)

[makenzie71]

It will likely produce much more than mains votlage, they run at high volts and low amps.  To get a proper 12v or 24v or 48v charging circuit you'll have to break the coils up.  It's not hard to do...it looks like 24 coils, which means three strings of 8 coils each going all the way around...you'll have to break it down into probably three strings with six coils in each string to get it working right.  I haven't seen anyone use this particular kind of motor before so you're going to be pioneering a little, but you can watch videos on how the washing machine direct drive motors are done and get a good idea of how it works.  I've got quite a few on my channel and thebackshed is a great resource for them.

This page shows how the coils are reconfigured for the larger 36 and 42 pole motors, it's going to be the same principal with yours.  https://www.thebackshed.com/windmill/FPRewire.asp

[Adriaan Kragten]

Yeah that'll work, that's a three phase axial motor.  Won't make a ton of power but it'll be a fun little project.

pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/6xQL2i4

This isn't an axial flux motor but a radial flux motor. Axial flux means that the direction of the magnetic flux in the air gap is in parallel to the shaft. If this motor can be used as a generator for a wind turbine depends mainly on the ratio in between the number of armature poles and stator poles. If the ratio is 8 : 9 or 10 : 9 you will get a rather high number of preference positions per revolution and so the lowest peak on the cogging torque. But if the rato is 5 : 6 or even worse 4 : 3, the peak will be rather high and then you need a rotor with a rather large starting torque coefficient to get a sufficiently low starting wind speed. The best ratio is found if the difference in pole number is only two so for instance for pole numbers 22 : 24, 26 : 24. 34 : 36 or 38 : 36 but these ratios are normally not chosen for standard motors.

Similar motors are also used in direct drive washing machines. On my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl there is a note at the bottom of the menu KD-reports in which I describe how the winding can be modified if the voltage is too high. The note is called: "Modification of the winding of the PM-generator type FP-640". The armature of this motor has 36 poles and the stator has 27 poles. So the ratio is 4 : 3. This means that it has a preference position every 3.333° and so 108 preference positions per revolution. This is rather low and the peak on the cogging torque will therefore be rather high.

[topspeed]

Which washing machines have this motor ?

[makenzie71]

Which washing machines have this motor ?

They're mostly Samsung, GE, and LG washing machines...the high capacity LG models tend to have the best motors.  Look for any of them that have the "10 year warranty" sticker or say "direct drive" anywhere on them.

[topspeed]

Which washing machines have this motor ?

They're mostly Samsung, GE, and LG washing machines...the high capacity LG models tend to have the best motors.  Look for any of them that have the "10 year warranty" sticker or say "direct drive" anywhere on them.

What is the max output...does it need a redrive ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foiVe-92l0w

[topspeed]

He is a low rpm conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-C8pmqRwBw

[makenzie71]

I don't know what you mean by "redrive".  You have to change the coil configuration, can't get around that unless you're running straight to a high voltage grid tie or something and I'm not sure how well it'll work even then.

I've seen over 1000w from a big 36 coil motor.  The smaller 36 and 42 coil motors can probably seen between 750 and 1000 watt peaks as well.  They're all pretty solid 500w producers.  This is kind of straying away from the potter's wheel motor though.

[Adriaan Kragten]

He is a low rpm conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-C8pmqRwBw

I have watched this video and saw something strange. The magnets are that wide that one magnet covers about three stator poles. However, I have seen such magnets before and they are magnetized such that you have three poles at the hollow side of one magnet. You also have two different magnets. One magnet has the poles N, S and N. The adjacent magnet has the poles S, N and S. So the total number of armature poles is three times the number of magnets.

If you have a motor with such wide magnets, you can checke if each magnet has three poles by holding a small neodymium magnet close to the inside of the magnet.

[topspeed]

He is a low rpm conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-C8pmqRwBw

I have watched this video and saw something strange. The magnets are that wide that one magnet covers about three stator poles. However, I have seen such magnets before and they are magnetized such that you have three poles at the hollow side of one magnet. You also have two different magnets. One magnet has the poles N, S and N. The adjacent magnet has the poles S, N and S. So the total number of armature poles is three times the number of magnets.

If you have a motor with such wide magnets, you can checke if each magnet has three poles by holding a small neodymium magnet close to the inside of the magnet.

Part 1 is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su4ukOcgwnY&list=RDCMUCYLQz5cdG3lZbPR9tOCcXTA&index=2

[topspeed]

I don't know what you mean by "redrive".  You have to change the coil configuration, can't get around that unless you're running straight to a high voltage grid tie or something and I'm not sure how well it'll work even then.

I've seen over 1000w from a big 36 coil motor.  The smaller 36 and 42 coil motors can probably seen between 750 and 1000 watt peaks as well.  They're all pretty solid 500w producers.  This is kind of straying away from the potter's wheel motor though.

Yes you can also double the output by having 2 of those in the same shaft.

I figure this is the same motor as is in potters wheel.

[topspeed]

He is a low rpm conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-C8pmqRwBw

I have watched this video and saw something strange. The magnets are that wide that one magnet covers about three stator poles. However, I have seen such magnets before and they are magnetized such that you have three poles at the hollow side of one magnet. You also have two different magnets. One magnet has the poles N, S and N. The adjacent magnet has the poles S, N and S. So the total number of armature poles is three times the number of magnets.

If you have a motor with such wide magnets, you can checke if each magnet has three poles by holding a small neodymium magnet close to the inside of the magnet.

Yes that motor cannot be very effective...it has been done to be able to control the current to have steady and strong torque at all speed ranges of the washing machine.

[Adriaan Kragten]

He is a low rpm conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-C8pmqRwBw

I have watched this video and saw something strange. The magnets are that wide that one magnet covers about three stator poles. However, I have seen such magnets before and they are magnetized such that you have three poles at the hollow side of one magnet. You also have two different magnets. One magnet has the poles N, S and N. The adjacent magnet has the poles S, N and S. So the total number of armature poles is three times the number of magnets.

If you have a motor with such wide magnets, you can checke if each magnet has three poles by holding a small neodymium magnet close to the inside of the magnet.

Yes that motor cannot be very effective...it has been done to be able to control the current to have steady and strong torque at all speed ranges of the washing machine.

I don't see why the motor or the generator cannot be very effective if it uses twelve magnets with each three poles. You get simply the same result as when 36 separate magnets were used and if the flux density in the coils would be the same. The fact that one uses 36 armature poles in combination with a stator with 27 coils makes that a 3-phase current is generated if the coil sequence is U1, V1, W1, U2, V2, W2 and so on. I think that one has chosen for 12 magnets because gluing of 12 magnets in the iron armature ring is easier than gluing 36 separate magnets. I think that the efficiency of this generator is acceptable but that the main problem for use as a generator for a wind tubine is the rather large peak on the cogging torque. Another disadvantage is that the generated voltage of the standard winding is too high for 12 V or 24 V battery charging. The voltage can be reduced by a factor 3 if the winding is modified but this is a rather tricky procedure.

[topspeed]

He is a low rpm conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-C8pmqRwBw

I have watched this video and saw something strange. The magnets are that wide that one magnet covers about three stator poles. However, I have seen such magnets before and they are magnetized such that you have three poles at the hollow side of one magnet. You also have two different magnets. One magnet has the poles N, S and N. The adjacent magnet has the poles S, N and S. So the total number of armature poles is three times the number of magnets.

If you have a motor with such wide magnets, you can checke if each magnet has three poles by holding a small neodymium magnet close to the inside of the magnet.

Yes that motor cannot be very effective...it has been done to be able to control the current to have steady and strong torque at all speed ranges of the washing machine.

I don't see why the motor or the generator cannot be very effective if it uses twelve magnets with each three poles. You get simply the same result as when 36 separate magnets were used and if the flux density in the coils would be the same. The fact that one uses 36 armature poles in combination with a stator with 27 coils makes that a 3-phase current is generated if the coil sequence is U1, V1, W1, U2, V2, W2 and so on. I think that one has chosen for 12 magnets because gluing of 12 magnets in the iron armature ring is easier than gluing 36 separate magnets. I think that the efficiency of this generator is acceptable but that the main problem for use as a generator for a wind tubine is the rather large peak on the cogging torque. Another disadvantage is that the generated voltage of the standard winding is too high for 12 V or 24 V battery charging. The voltage can be reduced by a factor 3 if the winding is modified but this is a rather tricky procedure.

Okay...especially when they are free from the dumpster....or recycling facility.

[JW]

Okay im doing this on a known ifected PC

give it 15

[youtubhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxfMEjK6KwUe[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxfMEjK6KwU

[JW]

Im sorry to intrude on these posts. In the future there's going to be issues, we will be one of the few prepared for this.

JW

[topspeed]

Im sorry to intrude on these posts. In the future there's going to be issues, we will be one of the few prepared for this.

JW

Right...I just designed a home that instead of loosing money on heating would create $9 000 annual income from solar panels alone.

[JW]

     dont be a smart ass. some of us are watching how a tic tak what ever it is, how it actually works.

[makenzie71]

I have watched this video and saw something strange. The magnets are that wide that one magnet covers about three stator poles. However, I have seen such magnets before and they are magnetized such that you have three poles at the hollow side of one magnet. You also have two different magnets. One magnet has the poles N, S and N. The adjacent magnet has the poles S, N and S. So the total number of armature poles is three times the number of magnets.

If you have a motor with such wide magnets, you can checke if each magnet has three poles by holding a small neodymium magnet close to the inside of the magnet.

The magnets in these motors change polarity four times per magnet (n/s/n/s).  I've got a dozen of them in my shop, several from different size motors and manufacturers, and they're all like this.  You can actually see the divisions on the magnets...each one of those vertical lines is a separation in polarity.

[Adriaan Kragten]

I have watched this video and saw something strange. The magnets are that wide that one magnet covers about three stator poles. However, I have seen such magnets before and they are magnetized such that you have three poles at the hollow side of one magnet. You also have two different magnets. One magnet has the poles N, S and N. The adjacent magnet has the poles S, N and S. So the total number of armature poles is three times the number of magnets.

If you have a motor with such wide magnets, you can checke if each magnet has three poles by holding a small neodymium magnet close to the inside of the magnet.

The magnets in these motors change polarity four times per magnet (n/s/n/s).  I've got a dozen of them in my shop, several from different size motors and manufacturers, and they're all like this.  You can actually see the divisions on the magnets...each one of those vertical lines is a separation in polarity.

img width=720 height=540]https://i.imgur.com/wNPLhj5.jpg[/img]

In the video to which I refered, I counted twelve magnets and 27 coils. Then each magnet must have three poles to get an armature with 36 poles. But I can imagine that there are also bigger motors with 48 poles in the armature and 36 coils in the stator. Then you need a magnet with four poles if you have twelve magnets. The advantage of four poles per magnet is that now all magnets are the same but they must be mounted such that the north of one magnet is close to the south of its neighbour.

[makenzie71]

In the video to which I refered, I counted twelve magnets and 27 coils. Then each magnet must have three poles to get an armature with 36 poles. But I can imagine that there are also bigger motors with 48 poles in the armature and 36 coils in the stator. Then you need a magnet with four poles if you have twelve magnets. The advantage of four poles per magnet is that now all magnets are the same but they must be mounted such that the north of one magnet is close to the south of its neighbour.

I promise, the 36-coil stators are usually set up with 12 magnets on the rotor and 4 poles per magnet.

[topspeed]

     dont be a smart ass. some of us are watching how a tic tak what ever it is, how it actually works.

Our electricity price increased to 67 CT/kwh last winter.