Author Topic: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?  (Read 1276 times)

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Jacobl1701

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Hello All!

I'm a mechanical engineer with an ambition to start some kind of fabrication business. I think a good place to start would be selling a standard product, and I've been building wind turbines since I was a kid.

I've noticed that almost all of the smaller wind turbines for sale online are the same "cheap" plastic models. I'm wondering if there would be any demand for a quality turbine with a diameter in the range of 4-6 feet. I'm thinking something with an axial alternator, quality bearings, a furling mechanism, and wooden or extruded aluminum blades.

My other idea would be to sell carved wooden blades alone, as those seem to be nonexistent for sale.

I just want to get some outside perspective on whether something like this is worth doing.

mbouwer

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2023, 04:17:22 PM »
Sounds good.
Can you tell us something about the wind turbines you have already built?

clockmanFRA

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2023, 05:12:39 PM »
Hi,

Have a look at this guy. He has been doing wind turbines for well over 45 years now and he has perfected a simple , robust and a very cost effective design.

https://scoraigwind.co.uk/all-of-the-books-by-hugh-how-to-get-them/

He also does smaller designs

As an Engineer myself i cannot fault his work.  I have 3off his 12ft diameter design, and they have been up since 2008.

I have seen many wind turbines come and go, but in truth to get decent energy from a small wind turbine day after day is not easy. Yes, i still struggle with rain getting into the blades and making them out of balance so each needs a 2 yearly service and re-balance.

I  trust this helps.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

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MattM

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2023, 10:17:39 PM »
Until you get to about 7 feet diameter, what is really the point?

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2023, 08:55:27 AM »
Wood has some good properties like light, strong and not sensible to fatigue. But it also has some bad properties like that it is difficult to find wood with a constant quality, grain and density. Protection against penetration of water requires several layers of epoxy and the epoxy has to be protected against ultra violet light. Because of difference in density, a wooden rotor always has to be balanced and after balancing the correct blade has to be mounted at the correct place on the hub. The airfoil nose can also been damaged by hail and the thin airfoil tailing edge can easily been damaged during transport.

Wooden blades can be made tapered or with a constant chord. I use constant chord blades in alsmost all VIRYA wind turbines. Constant chord blades are much simpler to manufacture and use much less material. The maximum Cp is only a little lower than for tapered blades. But to give the blades enough strenght and stiffness, they should be not too slender. A problem with supplying only blades is that you don't know what safety system will be used by the buyer. If they use no safety system at all, slender wooden blades will be destroyed at very high wind speeds because of flutter. This can give you a lot of claims even if it is not your fault.

If you think about serial manufacture, stainless steel tapered blades are also an option as making the tools to camber and cut the blades is worth while if you make more than two or three blades. My public reports KD 616, KD 617, KD 656 and KD 733 describe such rotors with different diameters and number of blades. These reports can be copied for free from my website: https://www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports. You should study at least reports KD 35, KD 196 and KD 485 if you want to become a professional manufacturer of rotor blades.

Another product you may think of is to suply a PM-generator which has been measured such that the characteristics can be used for a wind turbine rotor. Different options for PM-generators are given in my report KD 341. I think that the generator as described in report KD 718 is the most competitive. Measured characteristics are given in reports KD 78, KD 200 and KD 595. But you have to compete with cheap Chinese generators. You will only win if you make excellent quality and if you supply correctly measured characteristics.

Mary B

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2023, 12:15:53 PM »
Aluminum work hardens with time then this happens... that is 1/4 inch thick 6061-T6 aluminum plate. Held a 25' tall vertical antenna


DamonHD

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2023, 01:03:44 PM »
Ouch!
Podcast: https://www.earth.org.uk/SECTION_podcast.html

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topspeed

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2023, 02:14:25 PM »
Aluminum work hardens with time then this happens... that is 1/4 inch thick 6061-T6 aluminum plate. Held a 25' tall vertical antenna



Another pic please...I don't really get it...something is broken yes, but what kinda was the structure ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

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Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

Crockel

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2023, 07:44:29 PM »
That looks like fatigue cracking from either end before the center bit failed.

SparWeb

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2023, 12:10:08 AM »
Demand?  Only a little bit.
Do people want wind turbines?  Yes, but they have enjoyed cheap stuff made overseas for so long that they don't know what it really costs to buy something made by a person paid a living wage.

I once priced out my time and materials to make a custom wind turbine, and even I was surprised.  I didn't have to include the tower but I did have to mate up with the tower he had, which is when I had to accommodate risk and several factors out of my control.
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topspeed

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2023, 12:46:28 AM »
Hello All!

I'm a mechanical engineer with an ambition to start some kind of fabrication business. I think a good place to start would be selling a standard product, and I've been building wind turbines since I was a kid.

I've noticed that almost all of the smaller wind turbines for sale online are the same "cheap" plastic models. I'm wondering if there would be any demand for a quality turbine with a diameter in the range of 4-6 feet. I'm thinking something with an axial alternator, quality bearings, a furling mechanism, and wooden or extruded aluminum blades.

My other idea would be to sell carved wooden blades alone, as those seem to be nonexistent for sale.

I just want to get some outside perspective on whether something like this is worth doing.

I came across this "cheap stuff" when testing my turbine in a close by island...on a ferry one person told he bought a pretty big ( 4-5 kw ) system and had a decent tower made for it...and in the first storm ( in fall here ) it exprienced the RUD phenomena.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MattM

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2023, 08:01:30 AM »
Aluminum work hardens with time then this happens... that is 1/4 inch thick 6061-T6 aluminum plate. Held a 25' tall vertical antenna


Aluminum, especially when doped with silica, is just extremely brittle.  It doesn't harden.  It simply doesn't flex without fracturing.

Mary B

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2023, 11:36:13 AM »
Aluminum work hardens with time then this happens... that is 1/4 inch thick 6061-T6 aluminum plate. Held a 25' tall vertical antenna



Another pic please...I don't really get it...something is broken yes, but what kinda was the structure ?

See the aluminum tube? From there it went 25' straight up. The 2 holes on the right side of the crack held a 2"x2"x 1/4 inch piece of angle aluminum as a brace against flexing, it failed and tore off... sheared the bolts top and bottom was bent 60 degrees where it was bolted over the crack. Can't get a better pic... that piece is under 3' of snow.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2023, 01:50:13 PM »
Aluminium is sensible to fatigue. So if the tower has made a lot of vibrations, the critrical number can be reached. Holes at the point of the maximum stress give stress concentration which will have made the situation even worse. Low temperatures can also have had a negative influence.

makenzie71

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2023, 10:25:49 PM »
There are already small, high quality turbines.  Most of them are pretty expensive but there's some that are decently affordable AND are decent producers.  Real demand I think would be for a 5kw turbine that doesn't cost a fortune.  Right now the best we can get is iSta Breeze's Heli 4.0 (nominal output will be around 2kw) for about $5k USD, then we step right up to something like a Bergy XL 10kw for around $35,000 USD.  I think there would be decent interest in a reliable turbine that was closer to 5kw peak but didn't require a mortgage.

topspeed

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2023, 02:36:39 AM »
There are already small, high quality turbines.  Most of them are pretty expensive but there's some that are decently affordable AND are decent producers.  Real demand I think would be for a 5kw turbine that doesn't cost a fortune.  Right now the best we can get is iSta Breeze's Heli 4.0 (nominal output will be around 2kw) for about $5k USD, then we step right up to something like a Bergy XL 10kw for around $35,000 USD.  I think there would be decent interest in a reliable turbine that was closer to 5kw peak but didn't require a mortgage.

I heard from a competitor the 5 kw can cost 30-50 k€ . A sales person here told 10 k€ would be ok.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2023, 09:10:05 AM »
The marine, sailboat etc crowd are the only ones i can think of having a use for a 4-6' high quality unit. 

I am about as far removed from that crowd geographically and mentally than anyone on this planet, so don't take my word for it. 

I agree that the 3kw to 5kw in a reasonable wind (so 15' or so size) is more of a market.  Then you are competing with cheaper all the time solar panels though and that's why the market is tough. 


Mary B

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Re: Is there any demand for selling a small, high quality turbine?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2023, 12:26:04 PM »
Aluminium is sensible to fatigue. So if the tower has made a lot of vibrations, the critrical number can be reached. Holes at the point of the maximum stress give stress concentration which will have made the situation even worse. Low temperatures can also have had a negative influence.

Yup it failed when it was -28f(-33c) and had made it thru a dozen winters dropping to those temps...