Author Topic: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator  (Read 1125 times)

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Adriaan Kragten

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Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« on: April 18, 2023, 04:00:45 AM »
Today I watched the small video on YouTube called: "Exx-027 Wind Turbine Generator - Unboxing & Product Review - Triphase A/C rectifier DC - Energy". In this video, a small 100 W, 12 V, 3-phase, 12-pole PM-generator is disassembled. What surprised me is that both bearings are mounted in the front bearing cover. As the distance in between the bearings will be very small, the radial bearing load must become high if the shaft is loaded by a moment. This moment can be the gyroscopic moment or the self orientating moment or it can be caused by the rotor weight or by imblance of the rotor. The back bearing cover is also machined inside to keep both bearing covers identical but therefore there is a big hole in the back bearing cover. Mounting of one bearing in the front cover and one in the back cover would make the generator almost not more expensive but the bearing loads would be much lower. Other disadvantages are that the tags on the three wires don't match with the supplied 3-phase rectifier and that the box contained almost no specification and no measured characteristics. It is even not mentioned at which rotational speed the 100 W is supplied.

The usefullness of a PM-generator for a wind turbine is determined by two things. The peak on the cogging torque at zero rpm and the shape of the Pmech-n curve for a 12 V battery load. So if someone buys this generator, he has to measure it himself. If the peak on the cogging torque is too high, the rotor won't start at an acceptable low wind speed. If the required rotational speed is too high for a 12 V battery load, the cut in wind speed will be very high and the matching with the rotor will be bad. So the whole thing can be useless. Many Chinese PM-generators are offered without proper specification and measured characteristics for the correct load.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 07:41:24 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

SparWeb

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2023, 09:27:37 PM »
The fool also neglected the rotor attraction when assembling the stator housing, slamming them together.  <slap forehead>

The double bearing on one shaft as not ideal, not necessary, and it's hard to see the reason.  But it's not "wrong".  Moments applied by the rotor in yaw or furl will are reacted by the stiffness of the tower mounting but also factored by the moment of inertia of the spinning rotor.  On a machine like this one it won't be very heavy.  Static mass of the blades is also very small, so that's not really an issue.  In a strict comparison, I agree that one bearing on each shaft end will be much more robust and long-lived than any double-bearing set on one end. 

This product is best regarded as a "toy" to us.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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topspeed

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2023, 03:27:38 AM »
Thanks...I always wondered how these looked like from inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLjJGjGb9pA
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2023, 04:54:32 AM »
The fool also neglected the rotor attraction when assembling the stator housing, slamming them together.  <slap forehead>

The double bearing on one shaft as not ideal, not necessary, and it's hard to see the reason.  But it's not "wrong".  Moments applied by the rotor in yaw or furl will are reacted by the stiffness of the tower mounting but also factored by the moment of inertia of the spinning rotor.  On a machine like this one it won't be very heavy.  Static mass of the blades is also very small, so that's not really an issue.  In a strict comparison, I agree that one bearing on each shaft end will be much more robust and long-lived than any double-bearing set on one end. 

This product is best regarded as a "toy" to us.

The gyroscopic moment can be very high on a fast running rotor which is kept in the wind by a small vane with a low moment of inertia around the tower axis resulting in a high yawing speed. The gyroscopic moment in the rotor shaft for a three ore more bladed rotor is given by: Mgyr = I * ohmega rotor * ohmega head. I is the mass moment of inertia of the whole rotor (kg.m^2). Ohmega rotor is the angular velocity of the rotor (rad/s). Ohmega head is the angular velocity of the head (rad/s). The relation in between the angular velocity and the rotational speed in rpm is given by: Ohmega = pi * n / 30.

Mary B

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2023, 11:06:23 AM »
The fool also neglected the rotor attraction when assembling the stator housing, slamming them together.  <slap forehead>

The double bearing on one shaft as not ideal, not necessary, and it's hard to see the reason.  But it's not "wrong".  Moments applied by the rotor in yaw or furl will are reacted by the stiffness of the tower mounting but also factored by the moment of inertia of the spinning rotor.  On a machine like this one it won't be very heavy.  Static mass of the blades is also very small, so that's not really an issue.  In a strict comparison, I agree that one bearing on each shaft end will be much more robust and long-lived than any double-bearing set on one end. 

This product is best regarded as a "toy" to us.

The gyroscopic moment can be very high on a fast running rotor which is kept in the wind by a small vane with a low moment of inertia around the tower axis resulting in a high yawing speed. The gyroscopic moment in the rotor shaft for a three ore more bladed rotor is given by: Mgyr = I * ohmega rotor * ohmega head. I is the mass moment of inertia of the whole rotor (kg.m^2). Ohmega rotor is the angular velocity of the rotor (rad/s). Ohmega head is the angular velocity of the head (rad/s). The relation in between the angular velocity and the rotational speed in rpm is given by: Ohmega = pi * n / 30.

Adrian, I used to have a program called MathType that let me type complex formulas then copy them as a .jpg picture file to post online or in a document... and I *think* Microsoft Word has a math plugin now...

DamonHD

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2023, 11:32:28 AM »
Word does indeed have reasonable (TeX) maths formula support built in AFAIK.

(In fact, it's also part of the HTML5 spec, but I doubt (a) that this SM board would currently let it through to the browser and (b) most browers will handle it well yet.)

Rgds

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Mary B

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2023, 12:56:18 PM »
Been awhile since my last college continuing ed class... where I had to tun in papers with algorithms... ugh typing calculus crap into a college paper sucked!

SparWeb

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2023, 06:55:49 PM »
Today you are better served by Smath Studio for typing math.  The equations are "alive", too. 
Smath doesn't just passively write out the letters and numbers, you can make "x=2" and "y=3" and then by typing "x*y=" it will give you "6".

The job below took less than 10 minutes, and I spent extra time making it neat.

15440-0
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SparWeb

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2023, 06:58:23 PM »
It also emphasizes Adriaan's point.  Once I considered the freedom to yaw of a small WT would be quite fast, there's no question that the gyroscopic moment will be very high, and overwhelm the bearings when placed too close together.
218 pounds is survivable-
2184 pounds is beyond destruction.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2023, 06:48:20 AM »
In my public report KD 580, I describe a small 34-pole PM-generator which has 612 preference positions per revolution and therefore almost no peak on the cogging torque. It has a bearing in the front and in the back bearing cover. Such a generator will cost about the same if it is mass produced as the offered Chinese generator but it will have much better characteristics to be used in combination with a small wind turbine. Figure 1 in KD 580 gives an impression of this construction. I have added this figure as an attachment.

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makenzie71

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2023, 06:19:57 PM »
I've taken apart a bunch of them...the end of this video shows the rotor up close.  Skip to the end, the rest isn't super relevant.

Most of these little turbines have two bearings in the nose.  This one I linked to has probably 60mm of shaft supported.  I haven't seen bearings fail in these things and I haven't seen issues come about from their only having bearings in the nose.  I'd rather see bearings on both sides myself, but the way these little turbines are made it'd be hard to do...the slip rings they use in them are HUGE addairs that take up the whole back half of the nacelle.  There'd be nowhere tomount a rear bearing.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2023, 08:57:59 AM »
I've taken apart a bunch of them...the end of this video shows the rotor up close.  Skip to the end, the rest isn't super relevant.

Most of these little turbines have two bearings in the nose.  This one I linked to has probably 60mm of shaft supported.  I haven't seen bearings fail in these things and I haven't seen issues come about from their only having bearings in the nose.  I'd rather see bearings on both sides myself, but the way these little turbines are made it'd be hard to do...the slip rings they use in them are HUGE addairs that take up the whole back half of the nacelle.  There'd be nowhere tomount a rear bearing.

This isn't the same generator as the generator as shown in my video. The generator in my video has two separate bearing covers and the back bearing cover has even a machined bearing seat. So it is really strange to not use this seat for a bearing in the back bearing cover. The distance in between the two bearings in the front bearing cover is very small as there is only a small distance ring in between the bearings. Your generator is a part of a wind turbine. If the slip rings take a lot of space, it may be the reason why there are only bearings in the front bearing cover. It might even be that one uses the same construction for generators used in a certain wind turbine and a single generator unit to keep most components identical.

makenzie71

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Re: Disassembly of a small Chinese PM-generator
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2023, 09:40:18 AM »
This isn't the same generator as the generator as shown in my video. The generator in my video has two separate bearing covers and the back bearing cover has even a machined bearing seat. So it is really strange to not use this seat for a bearing in the back bearing cover. The distance in between the two bearings in the front bearing cover is very small as there is only a small distance ring in between the bearings. Your generator is a part of a wind turbine. If the slip rings take a lot of space, it may be the reason why there are only bearings in the front bearing cover. It might even be that one uses the same construction for generators used in a certain wind turbine and a single generator unit to keep most components identical.

If you want to see the same one :D

They still all use the same nose bearing assembly.  The vertical turbines have that symmetrical clamshell but the back is either used for channel for wire or for a post to mount the generator.