Author Topic: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question  (Read 2227 times)

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brandnewb

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axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« on: October 26, 2023, 09:33:37 AM »
Please consider a rotor of 192 N45 10mm wide x 60mm long x 5mm thick magnets.

On the image we can see the lower disk, consisting of 96 magnets, being prepared.

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I'd like to apply steel plating on both the bottom and upper part of the disk that is holding the magnets as I have read it will increase the magnetic field.

Can someone please shine a light on how thick the plates should be and by how much the field will be increased?

 

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2023, 10:22:18 AM »
iron plating is also good. in fact any type of plating that is commonly used to enhance the field strength I am looking for.

joestue

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2023, 08:06:19 PM »
neodymium magnets are basically 1 million amp turns per meter, and when the magnet is in open air, the magnetic field strength inside the magnet is about 1 to 1.1 T depending on the grade. (n42 to n52)

now because the magnetic field value measured in teslas or lines of flux per square inch, follows the square root of the energy stored, when you take an average magnet, and slip it inside a completely enclosed steel box, the magnetic field strength will increase 50% to about 1.4 to 1.5T. this is actually dependent on the geometry of the magnet as well.

For various reasons this is hard to understand.

imagine an infinite grid of resistors, say 100 by 100 resistors. take a block of them, say, 2 by 6 resistors, and replace them with voltage sources in series with the existing resistor, all pointing in the same direction. then ask what's the current flowing through any individual resistor.

The further you get away from the voltage source, the less current flows.

Now take your 2 by 6 grid of voltage sources and cut down the grid of resistors, say 2 resistors away from the voltage sources, and short out all the resistors to the edges of the box.

now as you can understand, the total current increases and the voltage across any given resistor is significantly increased.


that's what happens when you surround the magnet with metal.


steel has a resistance of about 1/1000 to 1/10000th that of air. but the magnet itself is an air gap, which is why the flux density only increases 50% when the magnet is shorted out.

alnico magnets have a permeability of about 10, which is why they can be easily demagnetized. they can have a flux density change by like 5:1 when shorted out with steel iirc. (.2T in open air, 1T inside a core)

so the whole point of an iron core, is to make the magnet field value far higher with less volume of magnet that would otherwise be required.

for example, hvac fan motors are now using embedded magnets, 100 watts shaft hp can be acquired at 1250 rpm from 8 magnets 1mm thick about 1cm square.

there is a minimum volume of magnet required but it gets less and less as the magnetic path is optimized.

for air core alternators you want the volume taken up the the copper windings to be the only air gap in the system, and you want to put as much copper as is practical into that air gap, in a coil configuration that has the most turns per unit area for the least total path length of the copper winding.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2023, 04:12:12 AM »
The required thickness of the steel sheet to which the magnets are glued depends on two factors. The first factor is that the thickness must be that large that the iron of the steel sheet isn't saturated. The third factor is that the steel plate must be strong and stiff enough to maintain the air gaps in between the magnets and the coils. For a small pitch diameter of the magnets, the first factor is mainly critical. For a large pitch diameter of the magnets, the third factor is mainly critical. The thickness according to the first factor is determined in the following procedure.

First it is assumed that the thickness of the sheets is that large that the iron isn't saturated. Next the flux density in the air gap is calculated. Once this is known, one can calculate the flux density in the steel sheet if one knows the concentration factor. The concentration factor is the ratio in between the magnet area and the ratio of the area which is found if the magnet circumference is multiplied by the sheet thickness. Mild steel is saturated at a flux density of about 1.6 T. So the calculated flux density in the steel disk must be substantial lower than 1.6 T.

An example of these calculations is given in chapter 3 of my public report KD 679 in which the 8-pole axial flux generator of the VIRYA-1 is described. This generator has only one steel sheet with magnets. The calculation procedure for a PM-generator with two magnet sheets is identical but the flux density in the air gap is determined by the total thickness of two magnets and the distance in between the inner sides of the magnets.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2023, 05:44:39 AM »
thx guys. seems your predictions are rather accurate.

By a stroke of luck I found 2 pieces of steel plate both 5mm thick (similar thickness as the magnets)

I did 3 test measurements all of them involving 3 magnets configured as they will be in the final version.

Each test I measured 10mm from the middle magnet.

test 1 no steel = 60 millitesla
test 2 5mm steel = 90 millitesla
test 3 (2 plates x 5mm totals 10mm steel) 90 millitesla

so unless laser cut into shape steel at 5mm is prohibitively expensive I am going for 5mm plates.

I think ;)

MattM

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2023, 07:16:10 AM »
Keep in mind, people also use iron filings and epoxy to shape their fields around the stator. 

Perhaps you can take a low tech precision cut route for each magnet by cutting along the blank circle where the outer or inner edge of the magnets will be, then use a cheaper tool like a grinder to cut out material.  Take your drop pieces and notch out for magnets.  Last set your magnets down on the second blank with your cut out pieces set around the magnets.  Glue it all together.  Then you appreciate why laser, plasma, and hydro cutters exist.  :)

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2023, 08:34:45 AM »
Keep in mind, people also use iron filings and epoxy to shape their fields around the stator. 

WOW!! Thank you Matt!!

You just reminded me that I have like a million kilos of iron powder waiting to be used and I have not epoxy but some other stuff needing to be used.

I think you just saved me a ton of money!!.

Thank you.

MattM

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2023, 02:53:30 PM »
You must have the greenest yard.  I used to dump my grindings on the grass when I lived in town.  The yard isn't really ornamental these days as I'm more surrounded by trees.  But its great if you have a source.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2023, 01:08:43 AM »
hhaaha I am not sure I have the greenest lawn ;) It needs attention from time to time.

No, I bought iron powder for an experiment. A transformer that probably will never see the light of day.

But for this project I am thinking GREAT, lets make use of the stuff we have before we buy more stuff!

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2023, 03:00:37 AM »
it lingers on me for too long so I will just ask;

why did you dump iron residue on your lawn?

MattM

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2023, 09:00:53 AM »
Iron rich soil produces the most dark, rich green grass you can imagine.  Its like feeding steroids to the grass.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2023, 09:24:27 AM »
interesting!!

Mary B

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2023, 01:32:46 PM »
Never knew that!

But my version of lawn care is "I don't care" LOL crabgrass and weeds are green!

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2023, 06:07:07 AM »
Please all shoot a hole in this if there is a target.

So I found that with 10mm of iron powder that is rather compacted (not to an atomic level but just hand slammed) I can get, to what seem to be, the same results as an 5mm thick steel plate.

So that means a 50% increase of field strength.

One big difference is though is that these magnets are all the way up to their sides surrounded with iron powder.

But yet witness how the iron powder seems not saturated yet. As evidenced by it still curving around the field.

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Of course I used the other, clean, side to make the measurements.

Can anybody advice on to go thicker? with 15mm of compacted iron powder or anything close to 50% is already good enough.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2023, 06:26:53 AM »
And also I could make use of 30% iron filled filament if that would be of benefit. Not that I have it at the moment but I can purchase it.

What we see on the image is regular PLA filament.

I do have though filament consisting of 11% iron powder.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2023, 06:29:35 AM »
If the sides of the magnets are covered with iron powder, you create a path for a direct magnetic flow from the north to the south pole and this reduces the magnetic flow through the coils. You have the same problem if magnets are mounted in a groove for radial flux generators and if the grooves have the same depth as the thickness of the magnets. The groove depth should not be more than half the magnet thickness or you must make a chamber at both sides of the groove for the upper half of the magnet.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2023, 06:47:30 AM »
thank you Adriaan. food for thought!

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2023, 06:52:51 AM »
after some thought Adriaan, I found that your advise holds up to my data.

WOW, you are a true master!

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2023, 07:22:33 AM »
so for these particular magnets never sink them deeper than 2.5mm into the iron powder bed? I think that equates to the general advice I think I gathered from you.

In an effort not to post to many new responses (which I have great difficulties with)

I just reminded now a follow up question.

So I was thinking to use iron filled epoxy to cast the coils in. But my earlier tests could not demonstrate any benefit of that.

Is that worth the effort?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 07:45:19 AM by brandnewb »

mbouwer

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2023, 09:30:54 AM »


For the coils you need transformer tin sheet.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2023, 09:49:16 AM »
(Attachment Link)

For the coils you need transformer tin sheet.

Could you please elaborate? I have been sitting on this subject for soo long that it would take me by surprise if I just got turned into another direction.

Please do not get me wrong. It can happen and I am more than willing to admit when it does.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2023, 09:56:12 AM »
noo my brother dutchman.

That is not what we need according to the new science I am working on.

hahah ok truth be told I might well be heading to a dead end ... again..

But I am just keeping my eyes open, my will and actions active and also my humility and respect towards people.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2023, 10:05:04 AM »
No!! What I think you can help on if you would like is that large parts. the stuff that spins.

I will admit that I really mislearned you there and that you are the perfect person to help me embark on a mission to build my mission.

Now Adriaan is of course the master of knowledge!!

Yet in terms of communication there might be use of some guidance to be able to address dumb people like me.

But please do not worry gang. I am brewing on something wonderful

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2023, 02:22:34 PM »
btw Adriaan, I hope you understood that I am serious about my respect.

I did not mean any sinisism.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2023, 06:27:42 AM »
so for these particular magnets never sink them deeper than 2.5mm into the iron powder bed? I think that equates to the general advice I think I gathered from you.

In an effort not to post to many new responses (which I have great difficulties with)

I just reminded now a follow up question.

So I was thinking to use iron filled epoxy to cast the coils in. But my earlier tests could not demonstrate any benefit of that.

Is that worth the effort?

If iron powder has any positive effect, depends on the thickness of the iron sheet to which the magnets are glued. If the sheets are thick enough, there is no saturation of the iron of the sheet which means that the magnetic flux flows with almost no resistance through the sheet and this means that you get the maximum magnetic flux in the air gap in between the magnets. So if you add iron filled epoxy for this condition, things don't become better and you won't see increase of the flux density in the air gap. However, if you use thin sheets which are saturated, then iron filled epoxy creates a second path for the internal magnetic flow and this reduces the magnetic flow through the iron of the sheets making that the sheets are no longer saturated. So now the total resistance of sheet and iron filled epoxy has become a lot lower and this increases the magnetic flux in the air gap.

You are making a very big generator and to make the sheets strong and stiff enough, they should be rather thick. So I think that the magnetic flux in the sheet is rather low and far from saturation at 1.6 T. So adding iron filled epoxy is useless. But to be sure, you have to calculate the flux density in the air gap and the flux density in the sheet. How this is done, is explained in chapter 3 of KD 679.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 08:45:05 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2023, 07:28:03 AM »
If you are interested Adriaan, I will loan you my test setup including the magnets, iron powder, tesla meter and magnet holder print.

Truth be told though that nowadays with online shopping it is rather easy to get the components required.

Nonetheless I would gladly contribute to the field if it would help at all.

brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2023, 10:18:45 AM »
ok so it is not 50% that the iron powder contributes.

It does contribute however.

measured at 10mm from a magnet; while the magnet disks are spaced at a little over 38mm

without iron powder is 47 mt and with iron powder is (funnily enough) 74 mt ;)

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So what does this tell us? Amn I A OK to proceed with iron powder?


brandnewb

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Re: axial flux alternator. Steel plating question
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2023, 04:19:15 PM »
wow, i am so stupid that I needed my partner to tell me that the increase is more than 50%