Author Topic: Magnet Golden Rule  (Read 1298 times)

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Yianie123.

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Magnet Golden Rule
« on: October 30, 2023, 05:45:06 PM »
Hello everyone. Really glad your out there.  I am still shopping for magnets, and when I started learning about PMG, I was taught with 2" round by 1/2 high magnets.  I am noticing a lot of designs have 1"x2"x .5" magnets not matter how large the PMG or steel disk is.  Is there a rule to how large the magnets as well as the coil should be?

joestue

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Re: Magnet Golden Rule
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2023, 07:12:57 PM »
This is like asking how many liters displacement i need an engine

With no regard to its intake efficiency, fuel, or its design rpm, or forced induction
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Yianie123.

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Re: Magnet Golden Rule
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2023, 11:37:32 PM »
There a corillations that I am looking for.  Things can be as complicated or as simple as you want them.  I know because I'm a degreed engineer.  Humanity has made some amazing things all without AutoCAD or even a computer.  Don't get caught up into the minutiae.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Magnet Golden Rule
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2023, 03:28:48 AM »
Yes, there are some simple rules. I assume that you want to design an axial flux generator with no iron in the coils. In chapter 9 of my public report KD 341 I give the optimum coil configuration for the 3-phase, 1-layer winding of an 8-pole generator. One basic rule is that the average pitch in between the left and the right leg of a coil must be the same as the pitch in between the heart of a north pole and the heart of a south pole. I have used rectangular magnets and trapezoid coils but you can also use circular magnets and circular coils. The advantage of using circular coils is that the flux variation in the wires is not as suddely as for rectangular magnets and the generated voltage in one phase is therefore more sinusoidal than for rectangular magnets.

If the armature has 8 poles, the angle in between two adjacent magnets is 45°. If the coil legs are radial, the angle in between the legs of two adjacent coils is 15° (see upper picture figure 5). However, more copper can be used in a coil if the angle in between the legs of two adjacent coils is chosen 0° (see lower picture figure 5).

There must be a certain distance in between adjacent magnets at the pitch circle to prevent that rectangular magnets are touching each other at the inner side. I have chosen magnets with a width of 20 mm. The pitch circle has a diameter of 90 mm and so the pitch in between the heart of adjacent magnets is pi * 90 / 8 = 35.3 mm. So this is 15.3 mm larger than the width of the magnets. This choice results in a minimum distance in between adjacent magnets of about 4 mm which is okay. If the magnets are mounted closer to each other, there will be a relatively large magnetic flux flowing directly from one magnet to its neighbour and this flux doesn't flow through the air gap in between the magnets on the two different armature sheets. This will reduce the generated voltage.

If the same magnets would be used in a 16-pole generator, one needs about the double pitch diameter and one also needs twelve in stead of six coils. The angle in between two adjacent magnets now becomes 22.5° and so the minimum distance in between the magnets becomes somewhat larger. Doubling of the number of magnets and coils means that the frequency doubles for the same rotational speed. So the generated voltage doubles with a factor two because of the increased frequency and with a factor two because of the increassed number of coils. So the voltage increases by a factor four if coils with the same number of turns per coil are used. The power also increases by a factor four. So increase of the number of armature poles has a strong effect on the power. But lesser poles makes the generator simpler and in practice, eight poles is the minimum for a generator with a 3-phase, 1-layer winding.

If you use two armature sheets with magnets at the inner side, there are two magnets for one air gap. The larger the air gap for a certain total magnet thickness, the lower the magnetic flux in the air gap. The generated voltage is proportional to the flux density in the air gap. The larger the air gap, the more copper can be used for the coils. I think that an air gap equal to the total magnet thickness is an acceptable choice if neodymium magnets are used. This results in a flux density in T which is half the remanence Br. Calculation of the flux density in the air gap is easy if it is assumed that the steel sheets are that thick that the iron isn't saturated. An example of such calculation is given in chapter 3 of KD 679. This report describes an 8-pole generator with circular magnets and magnets on only one armature sheet.

About a year ago I have started the post "Design of a PM-generator" in which I have explained much more. But I can't find this post because this title gives problems of you look for it at "search".
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 03:57:51 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

Yianie123.

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Re: Magnet Golden Rule
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2023, 11:19:42 AM »
Thank you so much for sharing your talents and knowledge.  How do I get the full report?  I would love to spend the time taking it in slowly, for the knowledge base is not so easy reading.

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Magnet Golden Rule
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2023, 11:42:35 AM »
Thank you so much for sharing your talents and knowledge.  How do I get the full report?  I would love to spend the time taking it in slowly, for the knowledge base is not so easy reading.

All my public KD-reports can be found on my website: www.kdwindturbines.nl at the menu KD-reports.

Yianie123.

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Re: Magnet Golden Rule
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2023, 02:51:34 PM »
Thank you for all the information.  It is complex.  Did you build your 8 pole generator and if you did what type of power did you get?

Adriaan Kragten

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Re: Magnet Golden Rule
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2023, 11:14:18 AM »
Thank you for all the information.  It is complex.  Did you build your 8 pole generator and if you did what type of power did you get?

The 8-pole generator with circular magnets has been built and measured. The measurments are given in report KD 679 (see Pmech-n curves and Pel-n curves for 13 V DC given in figure 5). The maximum power in combination with the VIRYA-1 rotor is about 27 W at V = 8 m/s for 12 V battery charging (see Pel-V curve given in figure 6).

If you want to know what can be expected from a much bigger radial flux PM-generator, you should study report KD 78 about a PM-generator using a motor housing frame size 90. The generator described in this report has been measured for different constant voltages, for different constant currents and for different constant load resistances. So it gives a very good insight in the different characteristics for different loads.

Jackir

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Re: Magnet Golden Rule
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2023, 05:20:31 AM »
Magnet size in PMGs can vary based on your design goals. Generally, larger magnets can generate more power, but it depends on your setup. Coil size also matters; they should match your magnet configuration for optimal performance.