Author Topic: Combined Heat and Power  (Read 2365 times)

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ChrisOlson

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Combined Heat and Power
« on: November 21, 2023, 09:33:45 PM »
Is there any on the board that use CHP for winter time heating?

Some background - when we bought our new lake home it was off-grid, a seasonal home built by a doctor. It had a forklift battery with two Outback Radian inverters and a generator to charge the battery. We've since gotten rid of all that when we got grid power. Our house is 3,600 sq ft, split level, and we heat it in the winter time with wood-fired forced-air furnace in the mechanical room, and fireplace in the upstairs. Backup heat is provided by electric baseboard heaters in every room.

We wanted backup power so we bought a Caterpillar DE50 generator, rated 50KW on standby, 45 KW on prime. The generator was originally installed as a CHP unit for my 4,600 sq ft shop, while using the house as a load bank (with the electric baseboard heaters) to keep it at least 75% rated load. It heats the shop with no problem at -20F. I've read that CHP diesels can reach energy efficiency of 80-85%. I know what the electric power is from it, but for somebody that has experience with HVAC what is the set of calculations that would be normally used to calculate the BTU/hr for the heat I get from it? The generator burns 3.2 gal/hr at prime load (#2 diesel) so BTU/hr input is 440,000 BTU. At 188 amp load (split phase power) its electrical output is the equivalent of 153,500 BTU. Making the generator about 35% efficient on a fuel to electrical basis.

But how do I calculate the heat output for the heating part?

bigrockcandymountain

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2023, 10:10:16 PM »
A very approximate rule of thumb is 33% to mechanical energy, 33% to heat through coolant, 33% to exhaust heat.  Every setup would be different.  A long exhaust pipe inside the shop that acts as a radiant heater would help efficiency quite a bit.

I have a similar setup.  Mine is air cooled, deutz diesel and the exhaust is piped out through a thimble that is double wall, so the incoming combustion air gets heated by the exhaust a bit.  I definitely dont get all the exhaust heat, but i get all the engine heat.  I would guess i'm about 75% efficiency all said.

If you want a real redneck experiment, run the exhaust through a big tank of water and see how fast it heats up.  Then you'd know how much is going out as exhaust heat.  1 btu heats 1lb of water 1 degree F.

If i had to guess your heat output, i would say half of the btu that aren't making electricity. 

440 000 - 153 500 = 286 500btu

286 500 ÷ 2 = 143 250 btu

ChrisOlson

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2023, 10:56:53 PM »
The whole heating system is water (plus glycol). The engine cooling system is piped thru the exhaust, which has a marine riser on it. 180F thermostats in the engine, water temp going to the Modine heat exchanger in the shop is 240F (under 14 psi of pressure). The engine is turbocharged, exhaust temp under the turbo is 980F at full load, exhaust temp at the outlet is 120-125F, depending on when the thermostats in the engine's cooling system open or close. The coolant is moved by the engine's water pump, which moves about 7.5 gal/min with the thermostats open, 1.2-1.3 gal/min with the stats closed and cooling system operating on bypass (for warmup of the engine). The capacity of the cooling system is about 22 gallons with the piping, what's in the engine, and what's in the Modine heat exchanger.

I know there's some heat losses, whatever is radiated off the engine block and oil pan, and exhaust manifold under the turbocharger. But the turbocharger turbine housing and the marine riser is all wrapped with that silver high-temp insulation stuff that they use on marine engine exhaust systems.

It works good to heat the shop. 4,600 sq ft (well insulated), clear span with no internal walls in the shop, at -20F outside it easily heats the shop to 65 degrees inside. The air coming out of the heat exchanger is downright hot when it's running and warmed up, and there's a 26" diameter fan on the heat exchanger.

Seems to me there's a calculation for furnaces that uses square ft of heating area and temperature rise over time to calculate BTU/hr. But if I had to compare, I use a 225,000 BTU diesel-fired space heater (some call them "torpedo heater") otherwise to heat the shop when I'm not working in there. And it's easily equivalent to that.

I was interested in the "scientific" calculation that is used to figure BTU for space heating.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2023, 11:14:11 PM »
It works good to heat the shop. 4,600 sq ft (well insulated), clear span with no internal walls in the shop, at -20F outside it easily heats the shop to 65 degrees inside. The air coming out of the heat exchanger is downright hot when it's running and warmed up, and there's a 26" diameter fan on the heat exchanger.

Or maybe that BTU/hr calculation deals with volume of air moved vs temp rise? I know it exists but I can't find it on the internet. I know the temperature of the air coming out of the Modine is about 140-145F, according to my wife's cooking thermometer. So it's heating ambient air in the shop to 140-145F as the air passes thru the Modine. But I don't know what the airflow volume of the fan is.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2023, 09:07:27 AM »
I finally found it in one of my old engineering texts. Every internet search only returned calculators to figure furnace size for a given size of building and heating zone. The formula I was looking for is

BTU/hr = (∆ T) x CFM x (0.24 x Blower Air Density x 60)

The 0.24 x Blower Air Density x 60 is the 1.08 constant that's used. Based on my temperature rise of the air and a 26" axial fan with 1hp motor moving the entire air volume of the shop every 11 minutes it comes out to ~192,000 BTU/hr actual heat output. Giving an overall efficiency of ~78.5% for my CHP unit. So even though the whole thing is homemade, it's in the ballpark with industry standards for CHP plants.

The idea was to determine if one of these could heat the house. Our forced air wood furnace is 150,000 BTU. The fireplace is one of those EPA-approved ones with a heat exchanger and the catalyst above the firebox in the stone wall for the chimney. It is 100,000 BTU. Our house requires minimum 216,000 BTU in heating zone 7 at -40F. A portion of the power from the current one goes to resistance heating with the baseboard heaters (~50,000 BTU), so it's theoretical heat output for space heating would be around 240,000 BTU, plus the balance of ~30KW for electrical loads.

So again, in theory, I could plumb coolant lines into the house and put a heat exchanger in the forced air ductwork and it would probably be ok to heat both the house and the shop except in extremely cold weather when additional heat would be needed for the house. The generator currently runs about 900 hrs a year heating the shop from December to March. Increasing the run time to 2,000 hrs per year, I think, would be very competitive costwise with utility grid power rates combined with what it would cost to run traditional oil-fired furnaces in both buildings.

Grid power is not really all that economical. It is only about 38% efficient from the shaft turning the generator at the powerplant to the load in your house. There's losses all along the transmission lines and transformers, in the generator itself and in the loads. It doesn't matter if the powerplant uses solar panels or wind turbines, those didn't appear out of thin air - it took diesel fuel to mine the materials, process them, transport them and maintain them before they can even exist. The entire planet and all of society as we know it runs on diesel power, from the loaf of bread you buy at the supermarket to your plug-in EV, none of it exists or get into your hands without diesel power. As the consumer you have to pay for all that.

I'm convinced that a properly designed CHP plant running on diesel can be more efficient than traditional methods of home heating and grid power.

joestue

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2023, 01:29:57 PM »
Grid power is about 38% efficient from the thermal source to the consumer, i would agree with that.

You can do better, if you capture 80% of the waste thermal heat, better yet use it to drive chemical processes.

There are plants that have a steam cycle condense into a propane cycle, then that goes through a turbine to condense in the cooling tower. Those plants are reaching as high as 60% efficient.

Distribution losses are around 7%. Basically 1% losses in each transformer, plus 1% losses in each distribution line between them.

Some friends of mine, buy natural gas for a third of the price of their industrial electric price of 6 cents a kwh. This reflects the fact that the utility runs nat gas power plants within 100 miles of them, and is making money selling them the electricity.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2023, 02:17:50 PM »
Grid power is about 38% efficient from the thermal source to the consumer, i would agree with that.

That's been the long accepted baseline in the industry. The national grid system is not quite as thermally efficient as modern diesel engines converting a fuel to mechanical power. One company that has pioneered a special combustion chamber shape and high temperature combustion process to ignite pure E98 ethanol in a diesel engine has achieved close to 80% thermal efficiency in heavy duty on-road, construction and agricultural diesel engines. They have modified a C-15 Cat, an ISX 15 Cummins, then John Deere got in on it and they modified a 9.0L Deere engine to run on E98. One of the problems with using E98 vs petroleum diesel in compression ignition engines is that E98 doesn't ignite reliably. In a diesel engine they can change the combustion chamber shape by changing pistons, then modify the fuel system to handle direct injection of ethanol fuel.

The national grid system is outdated, overloaded, very inefficient and very expensive to fix. For that reason, and despite all the hype, EV's will never replace combustion engines any time soon because they are actually worse from an emissions standpoint, and too expensive to manufacture. Same goes for the highly touted "hydrogen economy" - hydrogen might be the most abundant element in the universe but it's very low on energy content per kg of fuel, and it's not cheap or easy to manufacture it as a fuel.

These guys, on the other hand, are smart - select a fuel that already has billions of gallons of manufacturing capacity, and make diesel engines run on it. This will change how things are done in the future because it doesn't require major changes to infrastructure, is efficient, economical and practical. None of the other things meet those criteria and there's one undeniable fact - if it's not economically feasible it will never be anything more than a pipe dream.

https://www.agfax.com/2022/02/11/ethanol-diesel-engine-passes-road-test-dtn/

Mary B

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2023, 12:25:31 AM »
Grid power is about 38% efficient from the thermal source to the consumer, i would agree with that.

That's been the long accepted baseline in the industry. The national grid system is not quite as thermally efficient as modern diesel engines converting a fuel to mechanical power. One company that has pioneered a special combustion chamber shape and high temperature combustion process to ignite pure E98 ethanol in a diesel engine has achieved close to 80% thermal efficiency in heavy duty on-road, construction and agricultural diesel engines. They have modified a C-15 Cat, an ISX 15 Cummins, then John Deere got in on it and they modified a 9.0L Deere engine to run on E98. One of the problems with using E98 vs petroleum diesel in compression ignition engines is that E98 doesn't ignite reliably. In a diesel engine they can change the combustion chamber shape by changing pistons, then modify the fuel system to handle direct injection of ethanol fuel.

The national grid system is outdated, overloaded, very inefficient and very expensive to fix. For that reason, and despite all the hype, EV's will never replace combustion engines any time soon because they are actually worse from an emissions standpoint, and too expensive to manufacture. Same goes for the highly touted "hydrogen economy" - hydrogen might be the most abundant element in the universe but it's very low on energy content per kg of fuel, and it's not cheap or easy to manufacture it as a fuel.

These guys, on the other hand, are smart - select a fuel that already has billions of gallons of manufacturing capacity, and make diesel engines run on it. This will change how things are done in the future because it doesn't require major changes to infrastructure, is efficient, economical and practical. None of the other things meet those criteria and there's one undeniable fact - if it's not economically feasible it will never be anything more than a pipe dream.

https://www.agfax.com/2022/02/11/ethanol-diesel-engine-passes-road-test-dtn/

Town I grew up in had its own coal fired power plant that they modded to natural gas, the generated steam went thru the turbine then was piped into the downtown to heat the businesses then returned as cooled water... sure some loss in the pipes but it had to be pretty dang efficient...

JW

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2023, 04:38:00 PM »

This is actually kind of recent. The idea is to use renewable biofuel. Were still working on the steam engine.

MattM

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2023, 04:52:30 PM »
If you wrap copper coiling around it, can you add heat with excess solar?

Markcw

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2023, 10:18:01 AM »
We installed a 3.5mw gas unit I a London hospital , it's about 35% as mentioned, I would recommend looking a the bowman heat exchanger website they have some very useful information which would be helpful, have been toying at turning a 15kw Perkins generator into a chp but it's  just finding the time.

joestue

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2023, 06:30:04 PM »
If you wrap copper coiling around it, can you add heat with excess solar?
turning electric solar into thermal heat to drive a steam turbine is as dumb as the HHO electrolyzers people put on old carbureted cars.
We installed a 3.5mw gas unit I a London hospital , it's about 35% as mentioned, I would recommend looking a the bowman heat exchanger website they have some very useful information which would be helpful, have been toying at turning a 15kw Perkins generator into a chp but it's  just finding the time.

sounds about right.

some friends of mine have a 4MW gas burner drying 50 tons an hour of sand at 7% moisture. works out to about 50% efficiency, turning gas into steam.

i want to get a system built to capture the 4MW worth of waste heat and re-condense the water, and drive a rakine cycle turbine which should be able to net 200KW worth of electric power, enough to run their whole plant which is sucking up 40 grand a month in electricity. .. but it would cost several millions which would be well over a 5 year payback.
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MattM

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2023, 11:21:54 PM »
Quote
Quote
If you wrap copper coiling around it, can you add heat with excess solar?
turning electric solar into thermal heat to drive a steam turbine is as dumb as the HHO electrolyzers people put on old carbureted cars.

Not dumb if you are already sending excess loads into waste energy like a dump load or adding resistors.  You can easily concentrate electrical power into a controlled amount of space that can not only boost your heat, but add heat upon command.  So what you call dumb, others consider fine granular control.

Markcw

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2023, 12:41:27 PM »
We had two triple absorber chillers for the flue gases off the main gas boilers, these provided the air conditioning for the hospital, these two chillers gave us a a massive saying on the long term running costs as the boilers had to run 24/7.

joestue

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2023, 01:17:11 PM »
Quote
Quote
If you wrap copper coiling around it, can you add heat with excess solar?
turning electric solar into thermal heat to drive a steam turbine is as dumb as the HHO electrolyzers people put on old carbureted cars.

Not dumb if you are already sending excess loads into waste energy like a dump load or adding resistors.  You can easily concentrate electrical power into a controlled amount of space that can not only boost your heat, but add heat upon command.  So what you call dumb, others consider fine granular control.

or you could directly turn that electricity into the mechanical power you're getting out of the turbine/steam engine, at 80% or higher efficiency instead of 3-6%
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2024, 12:42:44 PM »
I got a John Deere 6068T diesel that I'm building a new CHP unit with, that will be big enough to heat both my shop and the house.

These are from Deere’s industrial lineup of G-drive and marine engines. They are HPCR with electronic unit injectors. Rated for 50,000 hrs to overhaul on irrigation or generator duty. It is 180hp @ 1,800 rpm and holds 45 liters (11.9 gallons) of oil, making it possible to run 500 hrs between oil changes. Used drain oil from the engine can go into the fuel tank, diluted with fuel and be burned. It is suitable for driving a 125KW split-phase generator and considerably more fuel efficient than our Caterpillar DE50. The 6068T is a Tier II engine, doesn't require use of DEF, 106mm bore x 127mm stroke giving it 6.8L (415 cubic inches) of displacement. It is 17:1 compression ratio, turbocharged and designed for intercooling, so heat can be extracted from the intercooler as well as the cooling system and exhaust.

The cooling loop for the engine (heating loop for the house and shop) will go thru the intercooler, then thru the engine's cooling system, then thru the exhaust cooler. Exhaust temperature @ rated load is 1,000F. The cooling system will be high pressure (25 psi) so the final stage in the loop will be heated to 280F 50/50 glycol-water that goes to the heat exchangers. We need enough radiant heat from the engine to heat the generator room and fuel system when it's below -20F outside so the engine block and exhaust manifold under the turbocharger won't be insulated. The engine weighs 1,820 lbs wet, so it has decent thermal mass as well, for continued heating of the generator room/fuel system when it is shut down without having have to use auxiliary heating to heat the room in sub-zero temps.

I chose this engine because it is near the pinnacle of current technology in diesel engines for thermal efficiency. It has 42% brake thermal efficiency at full load (fuel energy converted to mechanical power), with 28% wasted in exhaust gas, 4% going to pumping losses in a four-stoke cycle engine, 26% of fuel energy dissipating to cooling media as heat rejections to the ambient, including 3% going to mechanical losses as heat. It can be run at partial loads to adjust electrical and heating output as needed, just as efficiently as it runs at full rated load. Modern electronically controlled diesels are a total different world from the mechanical injection diesels of yesteryear, as the electronically controlled units can adjust both fuel rate and timing on-the-fly to optimize cylinder and turbocharger boost pressure and minimize emissions at partial loads. Unlike Otto-cycle engines, diesels run at peak volumetric efficiency because they are un-throttled, so they are an inherent lean-burn design with air-fuel ratios as high as 200:1 at very light loads in modern electronically controlled engines. The best an old Lister thumper could manage was ~40:1 air-fuel ratio at idle and around 15:1 at full load - not much better than a Otto-cycle engine. These new diesels run so clean they don't even leave any black soot in the exhaust pipes anymore. This particular engine can't qualify for on-road use because of NOx emissions, as it doesn't use SCR and runs extremely high combustion temperatures because it doesn't have cooled-EGR. But for a CHP unit it is perfect.

Total cost of the project I estimate at around $105,000 - the engine itself was a $27,000 component. Unfortunately, none of our existing plumbing or heat exchangers will work because they are a low pressure system. So we have to start over from scratch on the heating/cooling loops. It won't be running for this winter, but hope to have it completed for initial testing by next fall, and in full operation for next winter.

Edit: another plus with this engine is that is classified as a heavy duty industrial engine. It is used in John Deere ag and constuction equipment as well as G-drive and marine applications. It has replaceable wet cylinder liners, four valves/cylinder, the inline-six configuration has perfect primary and secondary balance without use of balance shafts, and the water pump is gear-driven instead of belt. It is very similar in design to the big block Cat (3406E/C15), which I think John Deere copied it from. But like the big block Cats, which became the first 2 million miles to overhaul engine in heavy duty trucks, this engine is designed to last with minimal maintenance.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2024, 01:00:28 PM by ChrisOlson »

SparWeb

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2024, 10:46:50 PM »
Quote
I'm building a new CHP unit with, that will be big enough to heat both my shop and the house.
That'll be big enough for you and dozen of your neighbours!

Quote
doesn't require use of DEF
Good thing.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Combined Heat and Power
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2024, 10:51:38 PM »
No, when I'm working in the shop I can pull 50KW and max out a 200A service pretty easy when I got the plaz table and welders going.

Edit: we have grid power here at the lake house and shop. But I can blow the main breaker on the 200A service just with the shop. I do a lot of work on heavy equipment, working with 1" sheet steel most of the time. Plus Kristin has all-electric stuff in the house - range, water heating, electric baseboard heaters when genset is running, clothes dryer, etc.. Doesn't take much to pull 100KW if we turn everything on. The new CHP unit is designed as a supplement, especially for working in my shop, which I spend most of the winter doing.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2024, 11:07:08 PM by ChrisOlson »