VAWT backyard experiements

[brandnewb]

also, please allow me to be perfectly clear.

I am complaining a lot about charlatans and snake oil.

None of the people that interact with me here are addressed. It is mostly the endless videos I can find online and also of course the cheap products sold as a gazzilion KW alternator from our friends in the east.

On top of that I have seen quite a few "start ups" selling/promoting their "new" design. It's out there and it's rampant.

I am mad because I fell victim once. Because back then I was just as clueless as I am to this very day. Hmm ok a bit less now than back then.

So hence my nagging about how to quantify things.
In essence it is not about me being able to show that I have something great. Of course that would be great if that results from all of this.
But the real goal is to be able to fend off or hold accountable the many many scams out there.

Wind has a bad reputation because it has been abused for far too long.

it is my mission in life to do something about that!.

[brandnewb]

@MattM,

I think I have an idea that might work.

What if I just cut the blades horizontally at lets say 30cm spacing. And then we can just space those segments apart at leisure. So we can see in practise what works or not.

If nothing seems to benefit us we can always put them back where they are now as to end up where we started.

But now the question is. How do we determine if a blade segment configuration benefits or not?

I guess it is by using this suitcase measuring device I use to measure how much KG is needed to stop blades from turning.
But the problem with that method is that the wind is always changing so it is rather hard to come up with consistent results like that.

[MattM]

A uniform pattern would be good.  Do you have something to use as a template?

May start with minor holes centerline.  But one vertically in the middle.  If any air is stagant anywhere, its going to be there.  Air will work itself from center to path of least total resistance.

How big of holes are you thinking?  Air going through holes can generate noise.  I was thinking around 10 mm could be quite noisy at a high pitch once air gets to above 30 mph.  Storm sirens use 25mm-ish or better holes and spin to generate air velocity above 100 mph, so you shouldn't ever hit that.  One line vertically down the center then new lines of holes offset 60 degree angles to one another.  Don't need to do the entire cup.  Three rows is pretty significant leakage.  Too much air leakage would not be the goal, so do not get too crazy with them.  If you do over due it you can simply add a liner (duct tape to the rescue) to the leading edge of the cup to patch over them.  The sides of your cup will direct the air to these holes.

Oops, saw the second idea.  I like your second idea better.  Cutting holes or lines are the options.  The holes are fast to cut one but could be significant time doing rows.  But horizontal cuts with a table saw or circular saw should be faster.

[brandnewb]

I am not sure gang how I should take this all.

Now most of the gang here are cool and collected and I really wish to meet you all once in real life and then shake hand and give a knod of appreciation.

Yet recent developments make we second guess if I am still in the right place.

And when we think about it it is all so relatively simple.

treat each other with respect and then the world will be better.

[MattM]

When I visit my focus is on recent posts.  I've watched most of the posts form from the first days, sure, but recent posts are new information.  Your posts are there.  Not sure anybody really digs through old posts except to revisit memorable ideas.

[JW]

I don't know ok that its best for the site to be about high traffic new projects. We have an archive and think about such past members as Flux.

By no means are we a beginners site. Not that that's bad... but you have to study do your research.

Im sorry but the post i was reading from Sparweb is advanced as hell.  https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,150879.msg1064090.html#msg1064090
 
We dont want to turn away beginners but they have to do there homework to be here, otherwise its a waste.

[MattM]

I'm trying to wrap my head around your thoughts, JW.  Are you striving for better english speakers?  Because when it comes to actual trial and error projects, that is what drove this place 15 years ago.  Your coloring of brandnewb's work as something less is confusing because he has been breaking the project into separate subjects for the purpose of tackling individual issues.  I have not seen any of his work to be simple or undisciplined.  He is testing using scientific methods.  That was how the site has worked all along.

[JW]

test post

[Mary B]

I'm trying to wrap my head around your thoughts, JW.  Are you striving for better english speakers?  Because when it comes to actual trial and error projects, that is what drove this place 15 years ago.  Your coloring of brandnewb's work as something less is confusing because he has been breaking the project into separate subjects for the purpose of tackling individual issues.  I have not seen any of his work to be simple or undisciplined.  He is testing using scientific methods.  That was how the site has worked all along.

I think JW would like it to be condensed into the user diary section where it would be easier to follow instead of a ton of separate posts...

[SparWeb]

I'm happy to see beginners starting out, trying things, even making mistakes and learning from them.  That's important.  Reality will teach you many lessons, but you have to test your understanding of reality sometimes.  Smarty-pants like me, can only explain so much.  Nature is the best teacher.  The rest is up you you to figure out.  That's the point of DIY - do-it-YOUrself.

I find that a word or two of encouragement can go a long way, too.  It didn't take much to keep me going.  My first attempts weren't successful.  I did some bone-headed mistakes.  It was safe to share the stories of failure, and the others (at the time) steered me straight again.  I've come a long way, but I still don't know everything.  In so many ways (so many ways!) I'm still learning and trying new things.  So if that makes me a "noob" still, then I would wear it with pride.

[Mary B]

I had 2 failures due to the extreme winds I get... I gave up and decided solar panels were easier! Keeping things in the air here is a major challenge. Heck ground mounted solar panels have been a major challenge with broken metal brackets from fatigue! I started with the typical galvanized metal house construction brackets to hold the wood frame together. Current iteration is now 1/4 inch thick steel plates!

[JW]

Ya I blocked him from posting for 29 days. Otherwise unrestricted. We will see if he sees the light. I don't care if he comes back.

[JW]

Can someone tell me what this means?

{2}And although playing with powder fields is great as was thought to me at kindergarten before I was born (yeah we role a little different here on the wrong side of the pond ) I have these sheets of plastic that can show fields in 2 dimensions. visualizing in 3d just means moving the sheet up and down and making a video of it for analysis after the fact.{/2}

[SparWeb]

Ya I blocked him from posting for 29 days. Otherwise unrestricted. We will see if he sees the light. I don't care if he comes back.

What the hell for??

You don't make any sense.

[JW]

Look when you're in the backend of the forum, you would see what I see. Ive seen security issues in a flash. You have the luxury of not having to deal with that.

[JW]

Its going to take 15 days to fix Brandnewb's account

I will say this again...   WE ARE EXPIENCING A SERVER PROBLEM.

Our host will not allow us to correct the error, it is a security reason, until that's resolved I cant do anything.

Im going to leave the site up and running deletion of files are not a problem.

[JW]

I believe he can post now.

[JW]

You have no idea of the possibility of what could be happening do you. Over the years I have seen uc/users install bugs and viruses. Ive seen it many times. Im not going get into this anymore. I Have Identified the bug. we have systems provided by our host that protect us. anyway you guys have never seen the attacks we have endured. Due to the closed minds here lately, I dont feel like talking about this anymore. Your safe be happy. I have regained some urls that I lost and am going to work on them. there is a huge vulnerability that materialized with brandnewbe  showed up. you guys need to relie on Flavio, im trying to get him the access he needs from the host. theres alot going on but we cannot fix it until I follow thru on the hosts identification system (user/owner). Untill we are verified by the host, they wont do anything, if there is an attack of sometype going on were helpless, untill we are verified by the host as the true owner/user we can not fix the security issue. When I started working on the web it was fun, but threats have evolved and things have changed. You try to make an SMF fORUM like this one and tell me all about it...

[brandnewb]

JW, let us try and reason. If I wanted to be a security issue then you know I can be.

I have all the experience needed to lay flat a server or even several of them by means of distributed denial of service.

Also I know how to look for weak points and how to abuse an attack surface to get into systems where I do not belong and certainly am not welcome.

However!! And here comes the important part. I am here as a friend. Not as your adversary.

Please just trust I only post here and do nothing else to risk the stable operation of your website.

kind regards

You have no idea of the possibility of what could be happening do you. Over the years I have seen uc/users install bugs and viruses. Ive seen it many times. Im not going get into this anymore. I Have Identified the bug. we have systems provided by our host that protect us. anyway you guys have never seen the attacks we have endured. Due to the closed minds here lately, I dont feel like talking about this anymore. Your safe be happy. I have regained some urls that I lost and am going to work on them. there is a huge vulnerability that materialized with brandnewbe  showed up. you guys need to relie on Flavio, im trying to get him the access he needs from the host. theres alot going on but we cannot fix it until I follow thru on the hosts identification system (user/owner). Untill we are verified by the host, they wont do anything, if there is an attack of sometype going on were helpless, untill we are verified by the host as the true owner/user we can not fix the security issue. When I started working on the web it was fun, but threats have evolved and things have changed. You try to make an SMF fORUM like this one and tell me all about it...

[JW]

However!! And here comes the important part. I am here as a friend. Not as your adversary.

Your over thinking the situation. I don't consider you an adversary LOL

I built and own the site, I like to raise a little hell every now and then. Don't reply just yet, let me get back to you, need to think about this some more

[brandnewb]

against all odds here I go again JW. in your defence mind you!!

So tomorrow new plates of steel will arrive for the alternator but also to reduce the wobbling of the turbine.

you see I figured to use JB weld to cold weld (100% of both surfaces) the current 500x500x5mm alu plate where the arms rest on to a steel one of 10mm thickness

I am kind of hoping the cold weld will make for a non conductive bond as to avoid the issues one might normally have attaching steel to alu

[brandnewb]

ok, so my trustty steel supplier is now officially rebranded as my rusty (as in steel) supplier.

That stuff still is not in and although the carrier does have an open track and trace they also have not gotten anything.
calling the supplier was also no help so I guess next week then.

I do trust it's not a scam so this is just a case of a tardy shipment/delivery.

[brandnewb]

So gang.

The results. how ever good or poor are coming.

You see I, once again, am going with Mary's suggestion to just build rather than endless analysis.

I have already done so much of that that I have a gut feeling that I can pull it off.

But to make sure I can adjust the velocity of the PMA in case things go south I am letting go of the direct drive for now.

I am printing pullies as we speak for a 1 to 1 ratio timing belt driven PMA so it can be detached from the turbine.

If things suck hard I can always change the ratio and see if that improves things.

But if a 1 to 1 ratio works in practice then the direct drive will be back at a later time.

Think of the amount of time this will save to just dive in head first!!! let us deal with issues when we get there, if at all.

So this all is a friendly reminder that even though I am slow in nature. I do not forget everything I have ever read and sometimes. or rather often times your suggestions might just come back at a later time as the detaching of the PMA was also not my idea. Someone here suggested that.

[brandnewb]

@MaryB,

I wanted to express my disagreement with you out of public viewing so that the index bots like google and bing are not in the know

I just still believe that testing a coils ability for the magnetic field it can create is of utmost importance.

Please allow me to elaborate.

In my endless testing I found that any coil shapes I tried can produce a field. But their range and strength can be manipulated by the shape of the coil.

Now in your defense I will admit the following. That I am not certain if testing a coil for field using a DC fed current is similar to what I really want to know.
And that is what the field would look like if it was induced by magnets rotating over them thus creating an AC situation.

But it is the best I have at the moment.

I'll be honest. I am soo eager to see what this PMA will do in practice. I can't wait.

Now be honest everyone. What are your expectations? Will it suck, perform just ok nothing to write home about, or do something unexpected entirely?

[JW]

brandnewb you are weird, I read your posts you don't make a lot of sense...

Just bear in mind that I am the site owner. You should realize I am ultimately responsible for what all users post and do. They have a picture of my DL on file...

[brandnewb]

Dear JW,

Since this is a non public thread I am going to be a little more harsh than I normally am.

Now brother. How many times have you stated that you own this site? a million times over and over?
And how many times have I disputed that? 0

How many times have I tried to reach out and help? I think maybe 3 or 4 times by now? Also my last try in a DM just recently.

Just trust that I certainly do not think I am not making any sense. Well at least to me that is.

You see I am slowly crawling to where I want to end up. And it is going to be wonderful.

This is my coping mechanism JW. I mean we all have our issues. I have mine others have theirs. For me it is important to just be bold and plow through if there is no real evidence that I am aware of.

In the end of the day we will come full circle. In where I stated that when all is said and done then I think I will have garnered your appreciation.

Now back to the topic of sharing food JW! I am still practicing my cooking skills by the off chance that you are indeed in the NL and close by one day.

Now are you are meat guy like your chicken oriented post I saw suggests or are you also up for something more exotic?

brandnewb you are weird, I read your posts you don't make a lot of sense...

Just bear in mind that I am the site owner. You should realize I am ultimately responsible for what all users post and do. They have a picture of my DL on file...

[brandnewb]

I'll be honest. I am soo eager to see what this PMA will do in practice. I can't wait.

Now be honest everyone. What are your expectations? Will it suck, perform just ok nothing to write home about, or do something unexpected entirely?

Am I really the only one that is interested in what this PMA will do?

My lord what a tough crowd

[brandnewb]

screw this. I am not going to wait +9hrs for a timing belt pully print that will probably fail somewhere when I was not watching.

I am going to use another timing belt as pully.

Of course this is beyond reason at the moment but I just need to get something done and STAT!!

Please remember this is all still an early proof of concept stage. SO cutting corners HARD is allowed at this stage and time.

[Bruce S]

I am printing pullies as we speak for a 1 to 1 ratio timing belt driven PMA so it can be detached from the turbine.

Is there a reason why you want to detach the PMA from the turbine?

Bruce S

[brandnewb]

The reasoning is multifold.

For one I am worried that once the load on the alternator (battery bank directly or cheap charge controller) will slow down the turbine to a crawl and hence also the voltage the PMA can produce.
(but on the other hand I am not dismayed by that at all. It then signals me that the PMA has got the potential I am looking for)
I can then change the drive ratio to something else in an effort to match the PMA to the load.

Another reason is that although I no longer see the turbine column flex what so ever (after upgrading it to alu 100mmx5mm) I am still worried that because it actually still is flexing or will eventually become worse then we get to the point of Adraain's remark in where he warned about the potential issues with a flexing column in a direct drive scenario.
Now I know one of you posted a suggestion here in another thread earlier with an image of how to deal with that. My best guess it was MattM but given he does not remember I must be mistaken.

Another reason is so that I can consider going 100% serpentine. No more modularity. This is only an advantage if the PMA can still be taken for service without having to dismantle the whole turbine. Thus having the PMA detached is beneficial in that regard.

Now of course I am aiming for the least amount of possible points of failure, so if it turns out that a 1:1 ratio works then gone be pullies and timing belts. Then the direct drive is back in town and here to stay.

I am printing pullies as we speak for a 1 to 1 ratio timing belt driven PMA so it can be detached from the turbine.

Is there a reason why you want to detach the PMA from the turbine?

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

The Best reason the PMA/Turbine has slowed to a crawl would be the batteries are full. Other reason there isn't enough wind velocity to keep the turbine moving and charging.
Running the turbine unloaded is a very BAD idea. Even though most VAWTs are somewhat self-limiting , they too can still go into a runaway just like HAWTs can do given enough wind speed.

"going 100% serpentine" What is going 100%? Your windings ? Your belts (This would be similar to a car's belt for accessories).

Bruce S

[brandnewb]

I meant with 100% serpentine is to not have any breaks in the coil. So basically a single snake (per phase so 3 in total overlapping each other) that runs, unbroken, around the whole disk.

This goes against the ability to (de)install the PMA in segments. I can still go for a serpentine in segments but then the start and end slots will be half winds of that of those in between.

The longer I think of it the less I see the point of closed loop coils. I must be overlooking something.

And I'll say it again here as well. I think by now that stacking coils and a serpentine in segments (not the unbroken serpentine) are basically the same thing.

[Bruce S]

Perhaps this chap's explanation will help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1ZM9WIBh4&list=WL&index=119

Also ; on here a great many years ago, Ed Lenz (Yes, that Ed Lenz ) also had what he called a "WAVE" winding.
https://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3phase_turbine_kit.htm
Here's a link to his kit, but the explanation remains the same.

There are pros and cons of each type, for me WAVE & Serpentine are identical, the English Chap's method and tools you can print out and reuse seems the easiest these days.
 
Bruce S