VAWT backyard experiements

[MattM]

Serpentines are highly efficient use of wire.  I read the serpentine coil can use 40% less material for the same output.  That makes it actually a pretty good solution.  The downside is its much more difficult to do multiple phases.  Doing more phases seems justifiable when in general it usually decreases cogging.

[joestue]

Serpentines are highly efficient use of wire.  I read the serpentine coil can use 40% less material for the same output.  That makes it actually a pretty good solution.  The downside is its much more difficult to do multiple phases.  Doing more phases seems justifiable when in general it usually decreases cogging.

yeah i'd be real curious where you read that.

i still don't understand why its not rather easy to make 3 to 6 serpentine coils, and use a press to push them together and force the end turns to overlap each other. you should then get a 3-6 phase mostly trapezoidal waveform that you can rectify separately or together in various combinations to change the voltage.

[brandnewb]

for 3 coils in a serpentine I would need 302.821mm of wire path.

for 3 closed loop coils I would need 489.567mm of wire path.

{1}perhaps easer to draw conclusions if I use the wire path length of 2 coils.
for 2 serpentine coils that is 223.189mm wire path length
of 2 closed loop coils that is 2 x 163.189mm = 324.812mm wire path length
{/1}

when using closed loop coils I can fit 48 of them on a disk. between the closed loop coils there is no field of the same phase.

when using serpentine coils I can fit 96 of them on a disk with no gaps in the field per phase.

But since 2 coils in a serpentine share a coil leg I still have to establish by means of experiment the electromagnetic al field the serpentine coils can generate will be half of that of its closed loop counter part. But i think so. that would be only logical.

But since we use less copper the resistance will decrease thus the field producing ability will increase.

choices  choices

[brandnewb]

the problem I have encountered with pressing is it is easier said than done.

one want the coils to stay in place while pressing so that means the the press must slip in between the coil holder slots.

Now with anything from 1mm diam wires that could work on the leg part as then the coil wires in that part are not easy to slip in between the coil holder slot and the press.

For the extremity parts of the coil they will not want to move and forcing them is asking, nee begging, for the enamel to get damaged.

But I will try pressing with these .71mm diam wires. see if I can print the press just snug enough for the wires not being able to slip through and that the extremety parts of the coils will spread open easy enough without too much friction between the wires.

And then we end up with a 3 phase coil that we need to take out of the template we pressed it in that will also take a week by my current battle plan, if one wants to do it carefully not risking wires to get damaged in the process

Serpentines are highly efficient use of wire.  I read the serpentine coil can use 40% less material for the same output.  That makes it actually a pretty good solution.  The downside is its much more difficult to do multiple phases.  Doing more phases seems justifiable when in general it usually decreases cogging.

yeah i'd be real curious where you read that.

i still don't understand why its not rather easy to make 3 to 6 serpentine coils, and use a press to push them together and force the end turns to overlap each other. you should then get a 3-6 phase mostly trapezoidal waveform that you can rectify separately or together in various combinations to change the voltage.

[brandnewb]

when taking into account the extra wirelength a coil will need at the ends of it's legs I made use of half circles this time around to more closly resemble the wire path in practice rather than an unobtainable optimum like I did earlier.

187.808721mm for one closed loop coil.

and for 2 serpentine coils that would be.
247.805151mm
now / 2 =  123.9025755 for 1 serpentine coil even though that can not exist in nature.

So then when calculating then the extra amount of wire between the paths then I end up with
41.0034% of a difference. Rather close to what MattM has read.

Now I am really interested in this serpentine coils and am going for it. But before Ifinalize the PMA before it can go into service I will measure the fields the coils can produce as opposed to their closed loop counter parts.

[brandnewb]

hahaha and of course I blundered again magnificently with the idea of using a timing belt as the pulley profile for a similar timing belt.

The belts came in today and that will never work. not even if one really really wanted it to work :0

So I have learned that it is perfectly possible to print T10 timing belt pullies with a 1mm nozzle so that prints take around 1 hour rather than more than 9hrs with a 0.2mm nozzle I used for a T5 timing belt pulley.

[brandnewb]

Dear brother,

I did not want to say anything at first but then I thought it important that I would.

This guy is high on my list of people to avoid. This guy is full of half stories and never actually demonstrates things actually.
It took a superior of his to make him admit he screwed up royalty in one of his videos regarding using a lits wire as coil wire using some exotic configuration. And even then he side stepped the actually issue where he let us on the wrong path.

This guy is a danger to society for as far I have been able to value his content.

Perhaps this chap's explanation will help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1ZM9WIBh4&list=WL&index=119

Also ; on here a great many years ago, Ed Lenz (Yes, that Ed Lenz ) also had what he called a "WAVE" winding.
https://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3phase_turbine_kit.htm
Here's a link to his kit, but the explanation remains the same.

There are pros and cons of each type, for me WAVE & Serpentine are identical, the English Chap's method and tools you can print out and reuse seems the easiest these days.
 
Bruce S

[brandnewb]

I tried imgur several times now. I do not like their policies.

Also I am building a turbine. Not a self hosted image sharing platform.

So I am going to do the unspeakable unless forbidden.

Look at how syco this looks. and then to think this is only half of the magnets

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/building-the-sickest-%C2%AE-vawt-ever-brilliant-minds-unite-please.31934/page-82#post-1034604

[Bruce S]

Dear brother,

I did not want to say anything at first but then I thought it important that I would.

This guy is high on my list of people to avoid. This guy is full of half stories and never actually demonstrates things actually.
It took a superior of his to make him admit he screwed up royalty in one of his videos regarding using a lits wire as coil wire using some exotic configuration. And even then he side stepped the actually issue where he let us on the wrong path.

This guy is a danger to society for as far I have been able to value his content.

Perhaps this chap's explanation will help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1ZM9WIBh4&list=WL&index=119

Also ; on here a great many years ago, Ed Lenz (Yes, that Ed Lenz ) also had what he called a "WAVE" winding.
https://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3phase_turbine_kit.htm
Here's a link to his kit, but the explanation remains the same.

There are pros and cons of each type, for me WAVE & Serpentine are identical, the English Chap's method and tools you can print out and reuse seems the easiest these days.
 
Bruce S

Then we will need to agree to disagree.
Unless you can show proof of what you're stating.
Especially since I used his SAND battery steps to build a "test" one with no issues

And since you didn't say which one , I'm guessing you're talking about the Englishman.

Bruce S

[brandnewb]

I am talking about this dude

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ttV0zt5XOE

here he goes on with a flat coil, which he calls a lits wire while it is not a litz wire, and shows how to wind an exotic coil configuration. but then leaves out the important bits like he normally does. Like testing things and demonstrating its capabilities.

here he tries to wiggle his way after being called out. But does so in the least convincing way ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=213PDBS66lo

I did not look at your other link yet though. I have not formed an opinion yet about that.

So can we agree to agree again?

[brandnewb]

ahh yes I did also look at that other link. I saw nothing to complain about on windstuffnow btw.

[Bruce S]

In short Nope.
I've watched even that one, and while he made a mistake he had apologized , unlike most others who will not.

Therefore I will continue to agree to disagree about the English Chap.

Good thing on Ed's for several reasons, that I will not go into at this point.
You do your stuff. The links were mainly so you had extra reference points not a critique of an individual.

Bruce S

[brandnewb]

after reviewing that video again in the defence of this dude though I hear him saying "then snip it in half" while making the "lits wire" while we never see that happen.

Now if both ends of the wire are indeed a bunch of parallel enameld wires then ok then it is a litz wire. But I think he never snipped it in half as I can see no signs of that when looking at his wire.

I guess he got tired and forgot that important part and ended up with a super flat and super long coil that will do next to nothing in practise.

But anyway this guy I like to avoid as all he does is regurgitate fun experiments of others while neglecting to do some actual testing with those ideas.
If I do not avoid stuff like that I will never get anything done I am afraid.

[brandnewb]

I would like to make it known that in the meantime I also have bought and gotten a packerpack of Homebrew Wind Power by Dan Bartman & Dan Fink.

It was suggested to me elsewhere and I saw some interesting entries in the table of contents.

It is a great book that for sure. But unless I am once again unable to find what will help me get to 52vAC at 3.7 Hz then again I think I should trust my self some more

Anyway. the proof of concept PMA rotors are ready for trail runs. all 192 magnets!!

I am now going for a serpentine version of the stacked coils as it is basically the same thing but then with a little less resistance in the coil wires overall.

I might revisit my posts once pasting images is possible and easy to do so that I can add images at the places where they make sense in my posts.

[brandnewb]

@joestru

Here I am going to give the push through template another chance.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/building-the-sickest-%C2%AE-vawt-ever-brilliant-minds-unite-please.31934/post-1035320

If this can work then the pressing of coils makes sense again to me.

[brandnewb]

things are looking good for stacked serpentine coils thus far. I just do hope I did not blunder again.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/building-the-sickest-%C2%AE-vawt-ever-brilliant-minds-unite-please.31934/post-1035939

TLDR: sharing coil legs between coils does not half the field. So basically we get 200% of field available to all magnets when using serpentine.

[brandnewb]

@JW, are you sure there is no way for us to just lift the limits of this front end and let us use an actual SQL statement?

I am still frustrated by the fact that one of the community posted the very best suggestion on how to deal with the wobbling of a direct drive. It is in your database I KNOW!! But how to retrieve it?

[brandnewb]

also I am going to incorporate a 4 times rotational speed increase.

I really would like to share why but I also would like to test the waters if there are still actually people interested in the why?

[brandnewb]

ok gang, I have a confession to make.

It is going to take too long and argue...

hahha nah gang

Let us liven up the mood.

Truth be told that I am a little ready to rock the foundations when it needs to be.

Yet never let it be said that I am not willing to help { argg screw this. mu auto correct cant help me convey what it is I want to}

Now that said.

-----------------------

I have some interesting news to share.

#2
ok I have one for us. One that does strike home.

Now I can demonstrate that the benefit of an iron core is directly related to the amount of resistance there is in the whole coil.

Weird yes? yes for me also. So it might well be that I could be mistaken.


Yet I do not think I am.


Can one pealse challenge me on this?

How to conduct proper experiments with the tools I have.




Now if you are going to hide behind not knowing the tools I have then I say 2 things.

* hey great you are new to the party. let us get you up to speed.
* ahh see how I just saw through your actual intend?

And then there a 3rd one. Just a misunderstanding that so many of us fall into this category.

#3
and I hate to have to spell it out. It are the people that do not with...


argg. screww this


Come on Joe And Ed. show some Chest.!!


#4
#now this was not in invitation to flame wars.

how could it have been since I am also a respected smart person.

This is however just one smart guy to another. come one lets get it on within the boundary that are set here.

It could lead of course to a misunderstanding in where I thought more than that there was. .
Ok I will go lick my wounds and now I have to deal with the even lower social standing I had to begin with.


---


the more senior amongst us of course will read things contrary.

[TechAdmin]

You will stay muted for a few days, I did warn you. The positive side is you can take some time off and gather your thoughts instead of continuously ramble.

I also expected you to take the hint but alas...