Author Topic: Keeping cool with 120vac  (Read 5612 times)

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JW

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Keeping cool with 120vac
« on: June 28, 2024, 11:32:47 PM »
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155961866326?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1bCcDfNIESSGCMS8jo9PZmw56&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=155961866326&targetid=1587268789337&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9013431&poi=&campaignid=19894961968&mkgroupid=148855406073&rlsatarget=aud-1405249128624:pla-1587268789337&abcId=9307911&merchantid=115293418&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwvvmzBhA2EiwAtHVrb7SuRHqk6tc6fJusPRAbgjfz5c46s06u5-alrxg8ID4E7eMu2pswJRoCA7UQAvD_BwE

Has anyone tried the moble AC unit for cooling. Its hot here and I went and got one. Its interesting since it uses a 5in dia air hot exhaust I just dump it into the attic. Im working on multiple units now.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126547409313?epid=5048287233&itmmeta=01J1GZWY5595B79DTZCZQMFM77&hash=item1d76d039a1:g:5JoAAOSwUPtme58w&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAABAHg1enzbyRZARhn9rn%2FJMaW11ZdIBz5VbArbHL3QuWvvBTd%2B7bgMHO9holROXfKlBFyJRHrUdKkPGKWeqK96PgJiXbNFJbqbPJmWzbl7FnPF70l%2B9yGhLXFAh4BaUxGS7Mwp6UklLDz68eACrRU9i%2B6VSZp4j46OPUop2%2BrOudwBMc7%2FaGbJaxQ6jMi9KJYfhl3Vh5q6enYTVbqQrk2eOnMkzYe8a4N9unNLwteBEi0enFzAFedAIv60wF7RG1TGsqijm0DL%2FhxgxC2H1get05iIN7Kj2A0n077ZcTs5IFRoez4e9UZh55CnjOyv8OGMBjyVBqXMLxBUuVgbtiXqO%2F4%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM4uLzn4xk

Ive got a 220vac source and I want to run 3 of these 120vac air conditioners.

Im doing ok with just one. Summer time its hot here. I dont want to run central AC just to cool the living room. when it cools the rest of the house it is a loss.

I plan to run 3 of the 120vac units from a 220 source.

15989-0


Mary B

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2024, 12:22:33 AM »
shorten that hot air exhaust as much as possible... it is dumping hot air back into your room!

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2024, 08:49:52 AM »
Your right and it dosent have to leak to do that. This unit is 6000 btu Ive got another comming this week thats 12000 btu. Im going to figure out how to insulate that exhaust duct.

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2024, 07:41:59 PM »
Havent got the bigger unit yet, But I spent some time insulating the exhuast duct. It made a huge difference. I never would have thought of that on my own, thanks Mary B.

Mary B

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2024, 09:34:04 PM »
I have one of those... found out that is dumped almost as much heat back into the room as it removed! I moved mine to where it could drain out under a window and the exhaust was 6" long so not much surface area to radiate heat back into the room.

Make sure the exhaust is sealed at the back too, mine leaked... duct tape fixed that!

joestue

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2024, 02:10:40 PM »
friend of mine built a box around the bottom of his unit, so he could turn it into a 2 pipe portable. around twice as efficient.
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JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2024, 03:26:11 PM »
Ya this thing makes alot of fresh water.. I have two 3 gallon buckets seems like im pouring one out less than every 12 hours. Although I wouldent drink it, its nice and clear.

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2024, 10:53:25 PM »
some pictures-

15991-0

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15993-2

Now this one heck of a bulb

15994-3

Im very atracted to biosphere technology. I moved to Arizona for over 6 months spent alot of time looking at BioSphere 2.

Mary B

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2024, 02:43:31 AM »
Ya this thing makes alot of fresh water.. I have two 3 gallon buckets seems like im pouring one out less than every 12 hours. Although I wouldent drink it, its nice and clear.

Nothing an RO filter wouldn't fix! I filter around 2,000 gallons of drinking/cooking/water to make ice every year... my tap water is gross, enough chlorine that it smells like a swimming pool, boil orders 5-6 times a year when someone breaks the water pipeline or it frost heaves and breaks..My water is piped 95 miles to get to me... town has a well but the iron and manganese content make it unsafe t even drink. And that is from a 600 foot deep well. They keep the well active only for firefighting, they can fill pumper trucks directly in about 10 minutes without using the water tower.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2024, 01:13:02 PM »
friend of mine built a box around the bottom of his unit, so he could turn it into a 2 pipe portable. around twice as efficient.

A one-pipe is pretty horrible that way.  Instead of grabbing outside air to dump the heat into, it grabs some of the room air it's already cooled, heats it, and dumps it outside.  This causes "negative pressure" in the house (the absolute swear-phrase of HVAC technology), which sucks an equal amount of unfiltered hot and humid air in through every air-leak in your building, defeating your insulation and massively increasing the amount of condensation produced (and the power burned to condense it).

It also limits the number of degrees you can cool the air in the house:  Add more conditioners, burn more power, and you will asymptotically approach the limit (and zero additional cooling for all your burned power), rather than lowering the temperature or increasing the room area cooled in proportion.

I use a small Whynter two-hose air conditioner on my (well insulated) townhouse in the SF Bay Area.  It cools the living room, and to a lesser extent (not enough circulating fans) the whole lower floor under most conditions. (Right now we've got a heat wave with 98 degree highs, and though it went to almost 100% duty cycle and couldn't hold the set temperature it was still able to keep the living room down to 76 peak.)

The Whynter also dumps the condensation into the exhaust air, which even in the humid air of the valley (dewpoint stuck around 55 F due to the Alaska Current except on rare occasions when the wind is from the mountains and deserts to the east) this is enough to keep it from filling the condensate catch tank and require dumping or plumbing.  (It has a heat-pump mode but the one time we were short on pellets and I tried it in our humid location, it filled the reservoir and shut down in a few hours.)

Previously got a one-hose for the Nevada place.  Building an outside-air housing box for it is on the short-list.

When building the box take care to locate the boundary between the portions of the louvers that suck air for heat exchange and for cooling circulation.  You can locate the boundary there, or to also run a fraction of outside air into the cooling part.  The latter will cost you some cooling, but give you fresh air and desirable positive pressure - which will help the cooled and fresher air spread out through the house and filter OUT through the ventilation leaks.  (If you are also using the condensate for a water source and switching to two-hose configuration cut your production, this would bring it back a bit.)

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2024, 07:19:54 PM »
This what started it all-

15995-0

We knew there was a problem. I wanted the front in my living room but the back was in the /attic/ceiling. The condenser would overheat and take out the compresser. It sucked was a bummer.

Now the portable units dont care, you can dump as much heat that you want into the attic.

I had to do something, even with the small portable unit (6000 btu) the place is livable. But yes it does take room air to cool its condencer.

joestue

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2024, 08:46:55 PM »
if your water is cheap or free, you can build a water cooled condenser and dump 110F water down the drain.

i made such a system from a 30 pint per day dehumidifier (consuming 450 watts), my wife said it worked better than a 1 ton, portable single pipe air conditioner.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2024, 10:57:17 PM »
Ok lets say that the existing condencer is liquid to air. you would need a liquid to liquid heatexchanger. Obviously you would have to recharge 134A, system. For that type 98% of the readers here could not do it.

My AC gauges are lost for now

JW
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 11:55:39 PM by JW »

richhagen

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2024, 08:07:52 AM »
What I have learned from A/C Issues I've had in apartments this year:

I have had problems at a building that does not have central air and the tenants tend to use their own AC units. I had two units this year where they were constantly popping breakers with them.

In the first case they had an old window AC with a capacitor start motor that had a tremendous amp draw when that motor started. It was not as inefficient as I would have thought once running, but not that efficient either. The issue is that the power draw on the circuit it was on was enough to blow the circuit. They also had a second smaller AC unit on the same circuit though they claimed they didn't run them at the same time.

In the second case, the tenant had three AC Units. I checked their power draws and found that the PORTABLE AC unit was horrendous for its cooling capacity. I thought the unit might be defective, but it was a new unit and I found the specs online. Turned out it was DESIGNED to be horrendous in terms of power. For an 8K BTU portable air conditioner it was drawing over  twelve hundred watts running. It also had a bit of a surge starting. It appears that in its case it uses the warm air generated to try to carry as much humidity out with its exhaust air to make it less of a pain to empty buckets too. Now on a 15 amp circuit with their big screen TV, lights, and other stuff in the room, it was just too much, like a space heater running, and with a surge when the compressor starts up as well. She did tell me on one occasion that she turned on her (1800 Watt) hair dryer and the circuit tripped, but that is a topic for another thread, so I won't get started on hair dryers and why they need their own circuit here.

I did a bit of research and found that the governments rating system in the U.S., the CEER rating is simply the ratio of BTU's capacity to Watts drawn, though the newer CEER as opposed to the EER averages in stand by power consumption as well. That makes things simple if such ratings are available for different models tested. For example, I found a 10K BTU GE profile unit with a CEER of 15.7. I used that for the first situation. It should thus draw about 636 Watts to move that heat to the outside. It is a window unit as was the one it replaced. It is also an inverter unit, so it does not have a huge power spike on startup either. It was however expensive, at $489. But in my case for safety, convenience, and power consumption, though the tenant pays the electric, it is worth it.

Now for that horrendous portable unit. I found that basically all of those units I could find that are sold are horrendous on efficiency, with CEER's in a range from 5 to 7 or so. I simply could not find an efficient one. I had ordered another of the 10K BTU 15.7 CEER GE profile units, but apparently Amazon lost in in shipping and it was refunded. I went to a big box home improvement store in the U.S., Home Depot, and I found that they had an 8K BTU window unit with a CEER of 16. It was the same capacity as that portable one. Now its power draw was just over 500 on the Kill a Watt, and it did not have any significant start up surge as it was also an inverter type unit. I replaced her portable unit with that window unit and told her she would not only be less likely to throw the breaker, but that she would save money on electricity too. That unit draws about a third of the power of her old unit for the same cooling capacity. By putting the compressor outside of the window, it is quieter, and you don't get penalized for turning a space heaters worth of electricity into heat inside your home that you then have to move as well.

After researching this a bit, my conclusions are that portable air conditioners are horrendous on efficiency and should only be used in emergencies. I do have a 10K unit of that type, but I only use it when someones central AC is down for repairs as an emergency backup.

If you are generating your own power with solar or wind the higher efficiency of a unit with a high CEER is worth the cost difference under those circumstances.

If on grid, it is a more complex calculation, you may have to balance the increased costs of a more efficient unit with the actual savings you'd be likely to generate from it. For example, if you replace a 10k BTU unit with a CEER of 10 with one with a CEER of 15, and it runs with a 20% duty cycle for 4 months, the CEER 10 unit drawing 1000 Watts running vs. the CEER 15 unit drawing 667 Watts would save you 333 Watts when running, so if it was only cycling/running 20% of the time, that would be .0667 KWH/Hr over 4 months of cooling roughly, or 192 KWH. If you used it 7 seasons, that would be 1344 KWH of savings. If your only paying a dime per extra KWH in the U.S., that equates to roughly 134 bucks. That is probably about the difference in price of the lower efficiency vs. the higher efficiency unit, and of course you are spending the money up front and getting it back later. You may have other considerations as well, such as in my case, where power limitations of the circuits they were powered by trumped other issue. Additionally there may be features on premium high efficiency units such as online monitoring/control that may have added value for you as well.  You should figure your own use case and saving and whether it is worth it for you.

I am happy to report that I have not had to reset breakers yet in either of those apartments since replacing those AC units and a bit of tenant education on hair dryer power draws.
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richhagen

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2024, 09:12:49 AM »
JW, I don't really like those units. Those Toshibas are only about 6.5 CEER, and if you put a Kill-a-Watt meter on it I bet it would measure more than 1200 Watts running. If you have access to a window opening or even can cut one, you can get twice the cooling per watt. I also don't like their advertising claims: 12000 BTU (8000 BTU DOE). Effectively that is an 8K BTU unit since it seems your spending a bunch of your BTU's just to remove the heat that thing generates in your home. (1200 Watts * (1 BTU/.293 Watts) = 4095 BTU). With three you'll be burning more than 3.6 KW with all cycled on whereas with efficient units (CEER 16) you could be burning as little as 1.5 KW if you have access to a window or can make an opening. Midea has a CEER 16 unit 8K BTU unit (500 Watts) at home depot for $389 where I am at. That GE profile I bought was 10K BTU, 15.7 CEER at $489 on Amazon (actually draws just over 600 Watts running from measuring). They are more pricey up front, but they are objectively better in terms of efficiency which is easier for that design since the majority of heat generated by the unit is already outside of your conditioned space. You may be able to gain some efficiency by reducing heat transfer in the tube, but it really is kind of like lip stick on a pig at that point in terms of efficiency. I miss Flux, I bet he would have had a bit of input on the general AC theory and issues at hand here.
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dnix71

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2024, 12:11:52 PM »
If you want efficiency on an a/c you must evaporate the condensed water over the hot side and dump the warm saturated exhaust outside. It takes 2.265 mega joules/kg to condense water from vapor without a change in temperature. Just a little over 1MJ per pound of water. 8.6MJ per gallon to condense water from the air.
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/water-heating
If you don't take room air below the dew point on the cold side of the a/c, it makes the room air relative humidity rise. If it's a dry air desert that may be tolerable. In south Florida where I live, that will not work. The humidity is frequently almost saturated anyway.

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2024, 01:18:22 PM »
Quote from: richhagen
After researching this a bit, my conclusions are that portable air conditioners are horrendous on efficiency and should only be used in emergencies

Thats whats happening here. I cant sleep without it.

Im still waiting for the bigger one, im hoping its 125,vac

This is my goal, its a difficult installation and has to be done by the right person. I have 220 outlet in the attic. but then it still comes back to heat, and how the condencer will respond. I wouldent consider it under normal conditions. This particular area of the attic is walled off from the rest of the attic. Also there is a panel missing thats about 10in by 2ft thats open to the atmosphere right were the installation would happen. I may get away with it using a fan to remove air from that area.



« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 02:01:21 PM by JW »

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2024, 11:37:28 PM »
Better than the last instalation.  These things make about 8 gallons of water everyday. Im runnig two of these TOSH1BA portable RAC -PD1213CWRU

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16006-2

Better than the last instalation.  These things make about 8 gallons of water everyday.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2024, 11:54:57 PM by JW »

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2024, 12:24:58 AM »
Im happy with portable AC systems I can stand next to it and it cools me down.

 Im thinking owh I wasted my money on the situation with the portable AC. but then I seid ok, they wanted $1100 to charge the central air system but it may last 1 week or 1 year. I went thru the crossover from R12 to 134a I always thaugt that R22 was cheeper among
Refrigerants and it is.


XeonPony

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2024, 05:20:43 PM »
Ya this thing makes alot of fresh water.. I have two 3 gallon buckets seems like im pouring one out less than every 12 hours. Although I wouldent drink it, its nice and clear.

Nothing an RO filter wouldn't fix! I filter around 2,000 gallons of drinking/cooking/water to make ice every year... my tap water is gross, enough chlorine that it smells like a swimming pool, boil orders 5-6 times a year when someone breaks the water pipeline or it frost heaves and breaks..My water is piped 95 miles to get to me... town has a well but the iron and manganese content make it unsafe t even drink. And that is from a 600 foot deep well. They keep the well active only for firefighting, they can fill pumper trucks directly in about 10 minutes without using the water tower.

RO will not remove bacteria, for that you need UV.

Single pipe portables are the least efficient, as they draw out side ambient air inside, 2 pipe or mini split is best.
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Mary B

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2024, 06:46:45 PM »
Ya this thing makes alot of fresh water.. I have two 3 gallon buckets seems like im pouring one out less than every 12 hours. Although I wouldent drink it, its nice and clear.

Nothing an RO filter wouldn't fix! I filter around 2,000 gallons of drinking/cooking/water to make ice every year... my tap water is gross, enough chlorine that it smells like a swimming pool, boil orders 5-6 times a year when someone breaks the water pipeline or it frost heaves and breaks..My water is piped 95 miles to get to me... town has a well but the iron and manganese content make it unsafe t even drink. And that is from a 600 foot deep well. They keep the well active only for firefighting, they can fill pumper trucks directly in about 10 minutes without using the water tower.

RO will not remove bacteria, for that you need UV.

Single pipe portables are the least efficient, as they draw out side ambient air inside, 2 pipe or mini split is best.

RO WILL remove bacteria. The holes in an RO filter are barely larger than a water molecule, bacteria are much larger and cannot fit. RO is used to filter drinking water all over the planet!

dnix71

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2024, 08:38:58 PM »
I don't know what to say, except that I am also from Florida.

joestue

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2024, 11:12:44 PM »

RO WILL remove bacteria. The holes in an RO filter are barely larger than a water molecule, bacteria are much larger and cannot fit. RO is used to filter drinking water all over the planet!

the issue appears to be cheaper RO systems such as what's under people's sinks.. can't ensure cross contamination due to leakage around the membrane.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2024, 11:26:00 PM »
All im I saying is that im pouring 18 gallons a day clear water with no storage. Its like exercice for me, im pouring the 3.8 gallon containers after before they overfill.

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2024, 12:43:18 AM »
I am running two 120v units at the same time. thats how i get 18 gallons. I am most impressed with BioSphere technology.

JW

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2024, 01:31:29 AM »
16032-0
16028-1

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[ Specified attachment is not available ]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2024, 03:33:26 AM by JW »

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2024, 03:47:21 AM »
Quote from: dnix71
In the second case, the tenant had three AC Units. I checked their power draws and found that the PORTABLE AC unit was horrendous for its cooling capacity.

Im running two TOSHIBA 8,000 btu off 120v We wont realy dont know where we are at until I see two months so thats two power bills.

I get like 70 f  they cool well for the square feet of the room. It will get so cold I sleep under a blanket.

OperaHouse

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2024, 09:17:07 AM »
I installed a HPWH in the basement way more than a dozen years ago and it drains into a bucket.  The sewer line is only 4 feet away.  I even tapped it and have a hose going to it.  I had some blockage issues and the drain line feeds into the bucket too.  It is my early warning system should I start to get some blockage.   It has been a constant issue over  the years and cleaning only did so much.  This year I uses a high pressure washer with a spinner.  I might just finish the plumbing.  I kinda like emptying the bucket. I just became a routine and gives me a sense of humidity conditions,

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2024, 05:25:49 PM »
Im making 18 gallons clean water per 24hours. Instead of wasting the water to the ground here. I empty the buckets in the toilet we have city sewer.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2024, 05:58:44 PM by JW »

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2024, 11:18:42 AM »
 So check this out

16042-0

If that's not a reality check I dont know what is....

This has been going on for the last year actually was 1600 a month and found a leak and it down to 1100. The leak is coming from a pipe underground. I believe in conserving water as a much needed resource... This is killing me.

JW

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2024, 12:49:53 PM »
Think about this, at one point we were using 90 to 112 gallons per hour. As I'm sitting here the leak exists every minute every hour. its possible 75 gallons. I have to go to the city to verify this.

I'm a big fan of biosphere 2.   

dnix71

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Re: Keeping cool with 120vac
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2024, 01:38:28 PM »
JW You need more responsible officials.

 Here in south Florida I can personally vouch that city water officials will show up in person if your water usage looks suspicious. Sometimes it's a leak, sometimes theft. You might still have to pay, but they will check their side of the connection right then if you ask. The meters show real time use. A leaking toilet can waste 50k gallons a month.

 A neighbor of mine had a druggy son who was allowing someone in the pressure washing business to fill his tanks from a garden hose late at night in exchange for weed. As soon as his mama found out, she hired a plumber to cut and cap all the external hose bibs on the house. Problem solved.

 The elderly woman in the first unit I lived in had a toilet run on because of a bad flapper. She called the landlord, who didn't answer. The water bill was over 200 dollars that month. The landlord threatened not to pay until she told him he had ignored her. I replaced the flapper the same day she said something. We also had a pipe break under the house and I called that in immediately. Old iron pipe just gave way and water was perking up just outside the back door to the same woman's unit. Had gas leaks on both sides of the building.

City of Sunrise don't play when gas leaks. It gets fixed.
I can call in water leaks under city streets and they get immediate attention, too.