a gearing question

[trizzybob]

forgive me if this seem spam-ish. But I am dreaming of winning the lottery and sovling the worlds energy troubles.

http://www.ecuinternational.com/pti/articles/pit009_009.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicyclic_gearing

epicylic gearing can be configured in so many different ways, and I'm having troubles understanding where, when and how it gains or loses torque. any attempt to explain will be helpful. However, I will try to tell you what exactly I'm thinking , so y'all can point to this mistake or that mistake.(if your bored enough to reply to my diary entry)

I'm thinking about;

 taking a hub motor (not unlike a electric bike motor)and useing it as the sun gear

 making the planetary carrier stationary and only allowing the planetary gears to rotate about their own axes .

 The outer ring gear or annulus will have teeth on both the inside (like normal ones do)and the outside (cause I'm trizzybob and I don't know any better)

 The outside teeth of the annulus will be the output and will turn a simple spur gear that is connected to a sun gear in another epicyclic gearing system or a generator.

In my mind, this configuration, increases the torque and recover some (if not all)the RPMs

what do you think?

[dinges]

My special friend Trizzybob!

You are back! Great.

I was wondering about how things were going with the Trizzybob powerrig solar collector thingy. How many kW's yet?

Did a quick google search on your handle and guess what? I'm not going to answer.

Have fun,

Peter.

[trizzybob]

thanks for the reply, hun  

[Countryboy]

making the planetary carrier stationary and only allowing the planetary gears to rotate about their own axes .

What you propose will DO NOTHING.  You will have ZERO RPM.

The planetary gear carrier MUST spin.  It is the driving force (input torque) of the system.  A stationary planetary gear carrier provides ZERO energy into the system.

Planetary gear teeth mesh with the teeth on the inside of the annulus.  The annulus DOES NOT rotate.  In order for planetary gears to spin on their axes, they MUST orbit around the sun gear.  Since they are mounted on the planetary gear carrier, that requires the planetary gear carrier be NOT stationary.

taking a hub motor (not unlike a electric bike motor)and useing it as the sun gear

What are you hoping to accomplish by doing this?  Where do you think the power will go?

The sun gear is the OUTPUT of a planetary gear system.  The bike motor shaft is the OUTPUT of that motor.  

As a test, go clamp the bike motor shaft in a vise.  See how much power you can obtain...

[Chagrin]

Never go down the path of thinking that adding more gears will increase power (or torque AND RPM). You can't create more power with gears than you put into it.

[trizzybob]

"The planetary gear carrier MUST spin."

not according to this encyclopedia, which says

""""

The three basic components of the epicyclic gear are:

Sun: The central gear

Planet carrier: Holds one or more peripheral planet gears, of the same size, meshed with the sun gear

Annulus: An outer ring with inward-facing teeth that mesh with the planet gear or gears

In any epicyclic gearing system, one of these three basic components is held stationary; one of the two remaining components is an input, providing power to the system, while the last component is an output, receiving power from the system. The ratio of input rotation to output rotation is dependent upon the number of teeth in each gear, and upon which component is held stationar

""""""""""""

"The planetary gear carrier MUST spin." "The annulus DOES NOT rotate." "The sun gear is the OUTPUT of a planetary gear system."

that maybe the configuration inwhich it trades torque for rpm but it might be the way it trades rpm's for torque. appearentlly I'm not educated enough to care or I'd know by now.

"The bike motor shaft is the OUTPUT of that motor."  

I thought the motors in "hub motors" spun ..,ooops.... while my motor will spin and the shaft will go all the way throw it and be clamped on both sides. I sure I can find some repulican math that will allow it to work.

[trizzybob]

"You can't create more power with gears than you put into it."

well, I'm not sure, but i think, those " my way is the only way idiots" would tell you and your kind that I'm not creating something out of nothing, I'm adding mass between the two sets of teeth on the ring gear and using the stored energy that god put there for us to us...., I hope reads as funny as it was to me.... who care if it has no bases in reality.

[drdongle]

While you can certainly change ratios, the net output will always be less than you put in, all system ( biological, chemical, electrical and mechanical) are inefficent and subject to entropy, there ant no free lunch.

Sorry

[trizzybob]

I can to win the lottery, you cain't stop me..., love ya tho

[dinges]

Trizzybob,

You are absolutely right! The previous posters are complete nitwits who don't know left from right. I agree, that planetary gear system should work fine. Not only will it increase RPM, but you are likely to end up with more power output than input, as long as you have faith in our creator. Don't let those 'only way' wizards fool you. You and I know better, those laws of physics are just there to impress simple people like you and me, to stop us from being innovative. Blame it all on the government, I suppose.

Don't forget to keep us updated on the project progress. Just like that solar powerrig.

Your special friend Peter.

(maybe next time you should try posting under a new handle; so the rest of us can have a contest who can spot Trizzybob first?)

[TomW]

Trizzybob;

Hehe, A google search on your handle returns some, shall I say, interesting information.

I would just like to point out that using wikipedia as a source of support for ideas is less than ideal. Anyone can submit anything there and I have seen some steaming piles of bull droppings presented as fact on that site.

Carry on and I hope you have better luck with this than your solar idea which I assume was a failure because you have not presented any findings.

To be fair you really should admit to failure when it happens [if]. I think we learn a lot from failure, perhaps more than success sometimes.

T

[kitno455]

"who care if it has no bases in reality"

do you want it to work or not? if so, i think reality matters.

trizzy, what you propose using mass on the planet gears (or their carrier) is just like a flywheel for power storage. there has been some interesting research in that field lately, and a couple of board members have units in progress.

unfortunately, you have to get the flywheel going with the wind, so you still cant get more power out than you put in. nice try

allan

[trizzybob]

first.., I'm not from Verona ms... and that is not my pee-nanny in that pic

was wikipedia wrong when they said that you can configure an epicycle gearing system in different ways, I'm thinking I read elsewhere you could.

I haven't done any actual labor on "The Trizzyrigged Power Maker" , but I've learned a lot and I have new questions and I'm not ready to give up on the idea of it. I will post if I ever have enough money to build it (or something more realistic).

I guess I should appologize for posting pointless stuff here,

[oztules]

The wikipedia information in this case is correct.

The carrier can be held stationary,and is on some front wheel traction motors I have rebuilt.

In this case the order of rotation is as you described.

The flywheel mass you wish to add will only add inertia to the system.

A nett power loss will occur in the described device.

..........oztules

[finnsawyer]

Isn't this also the basis of a torque converter where you use a clutch to hold a particular gear assembly stationary?  Or am I thinking of something else?

[finnsawyer]

The problem with mass is that it just sits there unless you give it a kick.  Oops, you just put in some energy from an external source.  Oh well, now let's see,   E=MC^2.  In that case the mass can be at rest.  Is that the energy you have in mind?  Other than the H Bomb, I believe only stars do that conversion.

[RP]

It's the basis of any planetary transmission which is virtually all automatic transmissions.  The torque convertor is a seperate animal.

[oztules]

In an auto transmission, you use hydraulic powered brake bands to hold (brake)the planetry gear carriers to select different ratios. An auto transmission can be thought of as changing clutches (brake bands on carriers) rather than gears.

A torque converter can be thought of as two impellors facing each other. Trapped inside a casing full of oil. If you turn one, the fluid displaced tries to turn the other.

[alful]

Trizzy,

if you are trying to build a battery and you are worried about ft lbs. wouldn't the simplest question be...will the device turn a heavier motor, fast enough to power the hub motor?

have you noticed that goldmotor.com have good Dimensional Drawing and Performance Curve Charts for that there repulican math of yourz?

sorry, I do not enough about planetery gearing boxes to tell what that configuration does.

peace,

Gene

[dinges]

Fish are biting good today eh, Trizzy?

[finnsawyer]

I was thinking of a torque converter (that's what it was called) as found on an International 300 utility tractor I owned at one time.  You pulled a lever to change the speed and torque ratio.  Quite handy but damned expensive to repair.  No hydraulics there, just clutches.  I guess the same term is used for different things.

[alful]

that's bubba gene bob, thank you.

[kitno455]

alright- that is where the line is. trizzy might be off base here, but name calling? the only person that deserves to be banned is you.

allan

[kitno455]

unless you are are trizzy under a different name, in which case- maybe you are right

allan

[alful]

yes, i'm trizzy ..., right about what?

[oztules]

tis true, every gear arrangement is actually a torque converter. The thing I described is the thing automotive people refer to as ...the torque converter.

The gearbox is also a selectable torque converter, but "hard wired"..ie. only set ratio's

The fluid type I described is a variable "gearbox" but without the gears, and is more normally referred to a  torque converter.

As you note the clutch type you refer to is most likely a planetry drive box, that swapps mechanical brake bands to lock different gear carriers and so selects different ratio's. It is a gearbox and so by definition it too is a torque converter. The non cog gear selection probably is the reason why it is not referred to as a gearbox.... that and the fact that it probably has two other orthodox gearboxes as well... high/low and 5 other gears?.....all selectable fixed ratio torque converters.....gears by any other name.

My neighbour has a similar setup on a very large Ford 6 cyl tractor.

............oztules

[dinges]

...And we have a winner!

Congratulations, Allan.

[kitno455]

there are a couple of other tractor options- one actually IS a torque converter in the automotive sense- but the stator has variable angle vanes, giving multiple stall settings. you basically trade multiplication for heat. the 65-67 GM st400 and st300 had a similar setup with just two positions. i have one of those myself

the other, more modern option is a hydrostatic pump, but that does not sound like your animal.

allan

[elvin1949]

Check out mister Ford's planatery gear transmision

on the old T Model Ford car. Auto without the hydrolics.Lever's and pedal's to activate the clutch's and band's.

later

elvin

[elvin1949]

HAHAHAHAHA

[finnsawyer]

This was just a two speed lever operated deal.  Nice when plowing, though.

[oztules]

yes thats the one. the usual gearboxes and the lovely one you can choose while your under full load.... nice when your spreading too.