Author Topic: drawings for boiler unit (Read 4268 times)

pepa · « **on:** August 29, 2006, 02:43:34 AM »

i wanted to post these drawings before i start construction on this project to see if there are any suggestions for changes in design or any potential problems that others might see that i dont. i have tried to research each segment of the unit as far as i can go, but i may have missed something that might cause trouble. the design is simple and can be changed if you see any problems with it. with the boiler inclosed in a steel container and located outside the house it should be as safe as any oil fired boiler can be. it will have safety popoff valves and heat sensors as safety features and for control. any help will be welcome.

a couple of quarts of biodiesel (my first samples) ready for seperation and washing, center one is untreated for comparason.

a good supply of used cooking oil on hand.

thinks for the help, pepa.

JW · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2006, 09:19:50 PM »

"and for control. any help will be welcome."

Extreeme temperature differential (for convection flow) will not work as good, as forced flow, thru your heatexchangers. I know it seems cheeper, but excess flow rates will only stabilize things. If your messing around with cyclonic methods you should definitly use forced flow for your "water wall". Dont forget, that with enough flow in the circuit, you can maintain an average mean temp that can be easily regulated thru the resivior temp discharge, thereby reducing the chance VOC out gassing.

My God man, your distilling volitales. (half smile)

JW

pepa · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2006, 10:33:43 PM »

thinks JW, my idea for air flo is to tie the output of this system into the return line on my heat pump and let the fan that is controlled by the house thermostat pull the hot air through the system, an inline blower, controlled by the same circut as the thermostat, may be needed if the run is to far. the water in the line tied into the intake of my hot water heater will be moved by the use of hot water from my hwh. blowers can be used to move the air if a central system is not avaiable. electricity, living space heating, hot water preheat, and air/conditioning/ice making all in one step with free renewable fuel is something worth working to for. pepa

Chagrin · « **Reply #3 on:** August 29, 2006, 05:13:22 AM »

How do you plan on getting the coil of pipe into the center of the boiler like you have drawn? I'm assuming you're using an old stainless steel water heater?

thefinis · « **Reply #4 on:** August 29, 2006, 05:36:38 AM »

ammonia can not be used with any copper or brass tubing valves or fittings. Stainless steel valving is best and steel tubing can be used. The ammmonia will eat anything with copper in it.

Are you going to use untreated oil? It shows untreated but then you show the treated oil pic. Sorry but I am having a little trouble reading the drawings.

Wondering why you are not using the lister to cogenerate electric and heat. I like the idea with the boiler if you use untreated oil.

Best of luck

Finis

pepa · « **Reply #5 on:** August 29, 2006, 06:26:09 AM »

thanks finis, you saved the day. the article that i based this design on did not mention the problem but did say that ungalvinized iron pipe and stainless steel fittings were used in the solar ice making machine. the boiler will use strained untreated cooking oil. the petter will be tied into this system and used as backup. my wind and solar battery charging will be the primary sorce of power but i have an abundent supply of used oil and think that this system will furnish most of my home living needs and can be run 24/7 without the noise of the petter and i won't have to refine as much biodiesel except for the petter and my diesel truck. the drawings are ruff and i do not know enough about computers to make good drawings. hi chagrin, i will cut the tank to install tubing and other modifications and then repair. actually it will be parts of two tanks welded together. thanks pepa.

elvin1949 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 29, 2006, 06:54:33 AM »

The inside part of the boiler reminds me of an old

gas fired steam cleaner i used 35 yr's ago to clean engine's with.

later

elvin

pepa · « **Reply #7 on:** August 29, 2006, 08:04:03 AM »

you're write elvin, i had forgot about those old steam cleaners. used to clean up after fire damage on insurance jobs, nasty work pepa

Bruce S · « **Reply #8 on:** August 29, 2006, 10:28:51 AM »

Hello Pepa;

Still trying to get those manuals for you.

Also, if you are using copper and steel , you might want to look at an anode. I pretty sure that steel and copper are dissimilar enough to cause a albeit week but still a battery , while you're running straitifed water through this unit.

I to think using untreated oil is a good fuel for this. Once the unit is hot enough ash and smoke shouldn't be a problem. Mother earth new built something similar a bunch of years back and they could get theirs down to dripping and still keep the boiler good and hot.

Thoughts?

Bruce S

pepa · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2006, 09:22:34 PM »

thanks bruce, i would like to see that article. i will research their arcives for the article and i thank you for the information on the pipe. i do a lot of tinkering but my knowledge of chimical reaction of different materials is very limited. the great thing about this site is the knowledgeable people that will take the time to keep me from making to bad of a mess of my projects. having fun pepa

Chagrin · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2006, 07:39:25 AM »

Google the "Galvanic Series" for reaction info between different metals. Basically the connection between copper and steel will cause corrosion in the steel.

I can't really say how much of a problem this will cause, but if you're concerned you could buy a "zinc anode" online. They make 'em for boats and they're pretty cheap. Basically, because the zinc will be the most anodic of the metals that are connected it will be the first to corrode and therefore prevent the other metals from corrosion.

thefinis · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2006, 08:17:21 AM »

Here is a link to an ammonia page that has lots of info it says that zinc (galvanized) is incompatible too.

http://www.rmtech.net/Anhydrous%20Ammonia.htm

I looked into the ammonia for cooling and finally decided that it was easier and safer to just make electricity and run an airconditioner dang it. I keep looking and hoping to come up with one because it can make use of waste heat to make cold.

Finis

Bruce S · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2006, 10:16:41 AM »

Pepa;

I totally agree the amount of knowledge here is priceless.

The oil burner is one I 'd love to do too. Here's the saved link I have on my computer "http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html"

It's an updated one , seems the guys here took mother's plan to a new and better level.

I just open a browser and it came up real fast so the site is still active.

Greatest of luck

Bruce S

FWIW : Your boiler project woud've been okay for a long time without the anode, just so where down the line you would've started seeing this greenish stuff where the pipes meet. I know, I found this on my pipes when we first moved in , of course after they started leaking and ruining the ceiling tile.:--(

Bruce S · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2006, 11:27:21 AM »

Pepa;

I have a bunch of questions about your washing the oil and such, I'm thinking that since the pictures are on here it shouldn't be too far off the article;-))

Can you give a somewhat over view of which method you are using? including the chemicals and costs?

Thanks

Bruce S

pepa · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2006, 02:52:21 PM »

hi finis, don't give up yet i found some information about a diferent type of heat driven refrigerators. i will pass the information to you as soon as i finish checking it out.pepa

pepa · « **Reply #15 on:** August 30, 2006, 06:51:09 PM »

`Hi Bruce, this is the way that I do it. Mixing 5gal. At the time. Use a large pot to heat the batch to approx. 120F cook for a few minutes to boil off any water that is in oil, remove heat and let stand until the oil cools to around 60F. While the oil is cooling, mix twenty teaspoons(1 cup plus 4 teaspoons of red devil lye and twenty cups (one gal. Plus one qt.) Methanol in a large bucket . I use a drill motor and paint stirrer, and mix until lye crystals are dissolved (PLEASE WEAR PROTRECTIVE GEAR) add mixture to oil and stir for about five minutes. Let stand for a short time and you should see the mixture start to change color and start to separate. If progress does not suit you or you get impatient stir the mixture again, unnecessary but it gives you something to do. After another few minutes of settling you should see a marked change in color. Leave overnight without disturbing oil. Stipend off good oil and leave fatty mess in bottom of pot( this mess makes good fertilizer if mixed with compost) add fresh water to oil for first wash, about a gal. And mix well and let stand until oil rises above water, I waited overnight, separate and repeat final wash. Final process is drying and I use a small air pump to aerate the oil for several hours and let the batch set in an open container for a while and then heat the biodiesel in the original cooking pot about 100F to insure that all water is gone, ready to use. Cost of methanol is 3.50 gal. (Racing fuel) about 1.50 per gal. If you buy 50 gal drum from chemical supply, 2.00 for box of lye. About a buck a gal for biodiesel. Have ordered fifty gal drum of methanol so after I use up the ten gal. Of methanol I have on hand I should have the cost down to about forty cents per gal. NOTE: making the next batch without washing to test another method of production. Will let you know how it works .Formula for one qt. Used cooking oil, one cup methanol ( heet brand fuel additive) one level teaspoon lye hope this helps, pepa.

Bruce S · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2006, 08:08:40 AM »

Pepa;

Thank you, this helps a lot. I've read tons of stuff and by the time I get to the end I'm ready to chuck to the whole thing.

I was hoping to be able to use the ethanol that I make, but after a couple hours of my father-in-law explianing to me why the "esters" will make different fatty chains I gave in.

There's a race track close so I'll go check it out for methanol. The lye is cheap around here and I've read that you can use old cotton cloths to run the mixture though and with solar drying recoop the lye back.

I've located a small diesel generator (6500watter) that I am bartering for and would like to make use of all that oil I can get from my wife's work.

Many Thanks for the info.

Bruce S

kitno455 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2006, 09:15:17 AM »

i see no mention in this of doing a titration to make sure you add the correct amount of meth/hydroxide? also- you should stir occasionally during the initial heating to make sure you dont get any water pockets on the bottom that boil and blow steam/hot oil all over. that particular preheat wastes a fair bit of power, and can be done via solar or cogen heat...

allan

pepa · « **Reply #18 on:** August 31, 2006, 09:42:11 AM »

bruce, good news about you finding a diesel. i have set most of my other projects aside for now to play with my motor. i was very flustrated with all the different information i was getting about refining biodiesel and about ready to give up on the idea of making my own. it seams every one that actually works with this product, does so in a different way, some take it to the extreme and others just KISS. some fellow named Tilly came up with the system that i modified and used as the base for my process, he calls it the world famous Dr Pepper Technique. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpe/f/719605551/m/857600061 very simple and described in detail, but mainly it takes a lot less time to process the oil even if it does use a little more methanol than the normal 20% that others use and the proven results are what counts. make sure that the finished biodiesel has a PH7 as a final reading check for best burning preformance in the engine and run through a double inline filter. let me know if i can help further, pepa. BTW i have added a detachible 5hp induction motor and extra flywheelpull to my petter, should give me 60hz power without rectifing and inverter, along with two auto alternators for battery charging.

Bruce S · « **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2006, 09:43:38 AM »

Kitno455;

Of all the stuff I've been able to read. There seems to be a good starting point.

That for every liter of WVO use 200 militers of Methanol and ~7 grams of lye.

I can't say this is the perfect mix, but all over the older and newer info available, this seems to be the reoccuring starting point, with the PH being the next most important value.

Since Pepa has done this a couple times , I think he'll have much more real values to add here, and I'm curouis about this too.

The only big problem with using solar , I think, is that the temp needs to be kept constant for such a long period of time. The cogen is one I think that once the first couple of runs are done can be a perfect way to keep the costs down and enviromental impact even lower.

Pepa?

Can you shed some light on the lye mixture?

Cheers

Bruce S

pepa · « **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2006, 10:44:58 AM »

Allen thanks for your comment, i am blessed with a large supply of clean used cooking oil and only keep the best of it to work with. i heat and seperate by settling without chemicals, the best of the oil which i store in large containers . without any further work the oil will continue to seperate from the foreign matter that collects at the bottom. when i started the process of making biodiesel i did tirating oil test on several different batches and the results were identical. the lye is to seperate the water from the oil and a simple test is to add a small amount of lye crystals to the top of a cup of used vegy oil and stir lighty, let stand for a moment and if the oil has very much water in it the lye will float to the top as a gel type mess. of all the formulas i have read about there is very little change in the amount of lye if the oil starts without a lot of water in it. i am new to biodiesel making and so far what i have done has worked well for me and my petter likes it to. i drained out the fuel tank and put in five gals. of this stuff and have run it for about three hours so far on B100 and the engine operates the same as with regular diesel, shut down and cranked quiet a few times ( this is a test before i use the biodiesel in my big chevydullie) one thing i did notice, on cranking, the petter does not blow black smoke out the pipe as the diesel did and my son said that it smelled like french frys. i will be preheating untreated oil for free (to many irons in the fire at onse) when i get the oil burner finished. pepa

ghurd · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2006, 10:48:45 AM »

Pepa and Bruce,

"every one that actually works with this product, does so in a different way"

You can say that twice!

An outfit on the web is converting cars and selling kits. (greasecar)

Warm up and shut down on straight diesel. Inbetween is straight WVO.

The kit seems to just warm up filtered WVO.

In fact, they offer a add-on kit to suck, filter and then straight to the car's WVO tank. Straight from the restaurant's storage tank!

Sooo... Is all the treatment just to remove particles? To make/keep the WVO thinner?

Something else?

G-

BTW- The link just shows who is online, and I couldn't get anything else to work.

Not that I would understand much anyway.

kitno455 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2006, 11:33:12 AM »

are you asking about the difference between BioD and SVO?

the latter is just that, straight veggie oil, filtered to remove particulates, and perhaps dried to reduce water. its thick, esp when cold, and tends to burn more slowly and less completely than diesel. works ok in older engines with linear pumps, and indirect injection, like the MB OM-6xx series.

bioD is transesterified svo, with viscosity, lubricity, energy content and cetain numbers similar to dinosaur diesel. often availible commercially, with no car conversion required.

if you are asking some other question, sorry.

allan

kitno455 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2006, 11:34:16 AM »

oops, mis-spelled cetane, in case you wanted to search for it...

allan

ghurd · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2006, 12:47:43 PM »

"energy content and cetane"... Users claim the same MPG.

Somewhere in that site claims less air born particulates and very similar lubricity.

See what I mean?

I don't know enough to know if I asked some other question.

G-

pepa · « **Reply #25 on:** August 31, 2006, 01:21:54 PM »

I DONT KNOW IF I KNOW ENOUGH TO KNOW, me either gaurd, i have read about this stuff until my brain hurts, still i would not give up. what i have done works for me, may not for someone else. the cetane (power to make power) octane in gas, is in the oil reguardless of what you do to it except burn it up, the process of making biodiesel is to get any water and foreign particles out if the oil. that said, to protect your engine fron unnecessary buildup of gunk you heat, treat, strain, wash, dry, use. the engine will help itself by line filtering and the hi compression at hi heat will keep buildup to a minimum. the cleaner and dryer it is the better it will burn but the oil has excellent lucribiting properties that protect parts from ware. i personally thank that the biodiesel i am producing burns cleaner than regular diesel fuel, just my openion and you try it at your own risk, i have and will, pepa.

Bruce S · « **Reply #26 on:** August 31, 2006, 04:35:38 PM »

G- & Pepa;

I know the feeling. I read, read and even emailed Bio-Willie ( don't bother they don't answer) about as much as the web and library can carry, the libraries hate to see me coming cause they usually now have to "order" the book. better to spend a buck than spend 50 on a book that tells me the same thing.

I even stopped for a bit, Alky was getting put off and gas was at the 2.89 level.

Alky's now back online with a new controlled fish tank heater.

Pepa: with 2 Alts online and know the 5hp unit how's the engine for starting? I would think all these would begin to load even a high torque unit some now.

Allan does have a point 2. Those new kits are okay but for me the jury's still out. I can see a lot of problems with WVO that has lard and who knows what else in there.

Once I get the Gen set and start pulling in the oils , I think I'll stay with esterfiying the stuff.

I have time. We used to handle methanol for the rail cars and such. Even the funny car guys made sure anyone around knew what they were doing. The stuff will flat out kill if handled wrong, it more dangerous that handling hydrogen gas at room temp.

Pepa>> Thanks for the link , I'll read it tomorrow and see if I can gleen a little more from it to make the process KISSed.

Cheers All

Bruce S

elvin1949 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 31, 2006, 06:37:34 PM »

Bruce,pepa,ghurd

Rudolph Diesel built his engine to run on peanut oil.Most french fry oil is Peanut oil.

You almost can't go wrong.If the ambient temp is warm,make sure it is cleen and dry.If the ambient

temp is cold do the full BioD treatment.

Just my take on it after a lot of looking around.

later

elvin

pepa · « **Reply #28 on:** August 31, 2006, 08:26:30 PM »

bruce, i installed auto headlight switches between the field coil and battery on both alternators to control the amount of power that they put out (from 0 to full amp rating or more) and i usually dial them down to 0 for starting and then bring them up to match the charge setting that i need, also the spring loaded governor can be held back to relieve pressure on the belt of the alternators (while cranking)if necessary. so far every thing works with no assist from me with the two auto alternators. at the moment the unit is shut down while waiting for the shaft extention to be made to mount the extra flywheelpully for the induction motor. i installed and aligned the fluwheel with c clamps to line up the brackets for the induction. i also mounted the bracket for the motor with a heavy duty 4" door butt hinge so that it can be removed easily by removing the pen, and to use the motor's own weight to keep tention on the belt. this little diesel motor is a real horse. pepa.

News:

Author Topic: drawings for boiler unit (Read 4268 times)