Author Topic: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering  (Read 1248 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

TTR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« on: February 19, 2009, 06:51:03 PM »
  As I am what is considered here a newbie. I would like to post this ? for all you seasoned veterns. I have for quite some time driven my diesel pickup around the great USA and on straight vegetable oil (SVO, WVO) and has worked without fail. Now I have the opportunity to buy at a very reasonable price a large diesel gen. What is to say I set up a second fuel tank, heated of course for the veg, and sign up for the net metering in my area. Yes go through all the loops and what not they want me to do. In any case fire the thing up and let it roll the meter back for several days. Unhook store the gen back in my barn and when the meter # approaches where I started in several months do it again. I am looking forward to holes being shot in my idea. Thanks what a great site this is.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 06:51:03 PM by (unknown) »

electronbaby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
  • Country: us
    • Windsine.org
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 12:28:48 PM »
Yes, there are people that do this. Its not exactly legal, so dont expect to get permission from the utility for exactly this purpose. I only advocate legal, proper, safe, renewable net metering.


I can tell from the rest of your response that you dont know what net metering really is, and that you really dont know what you are doing.

I can honestly tell you that after reading your post, it would be easier and cheaper to just use less electricity. This is hard for some folks to grasp however.


 

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 12:28:48 PM by electronbaby »
Have Fun!!!  RoyR KB2UHF

sk windpirate

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 02:26:37 PM »
This sounds a like a great opperation. You spend $10,000.00 to aquire all the equipment. Hours of time jumping through hoops, with paper work. Then spend endless hours turning your meter back and letting it return. More money and time collecting oil. more money to up keep the diesel and equipment. more money heating it. If i wasn't 70 years old i would jump on a deal like that.


"Or" start pulling so plugs from the outlets. turning off extra lights. Compact flo lights. Cutting back on your consumption. Now you will have some free time to enjoy the money that you will save....


"And yes this is a great site" Endless amounts of (free) priceless info here.


Many thanks to our hosts for keeping us.


   

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 02:26:37 PM by sk windpirate »

TTR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 02:53:41 PM »
I would like to be informed as to why this is not legal and how it is that I am mistaken on net metering. Your response was not exactly helpful. I live in an area where 3 phase is not an option from my utility co. and I have some 3 phase equip. that I will be utilizing so I will have the generator regardless. Try again
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 02:53:41 PM by TTR »

TTR

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2009, 03:10:38 PM »
I would like to be informed as to why this is not legal and how it is that I am mistaken on net metering. Your response was not exactly helpful. I live in an area where 3 phase is not an option from my utility co. and I have some 3 phase equip. that I will be utilizing so I will have the generator regardless. Please advise
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 03:10:38 PM by TTR »

Bruce S

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5413
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2009, 03:16:28 PM »
TTR;

 Since I "dabble in Bio-D" I'll lend an ear and try to help you in the right direction.

Mostly: unless you're not on the grid or no longer want to be on the grid, any electricity you make will start out being more costly than the "grid". This is due to their massive ability to buy on the cheap.


Back to your gen & veggie; the short answer is YES you certainly can do this.

The legal part has been very hard for others to do, but not impossible. Just be prepared to jump through many many expensive hoops.


As other have said; it's bester/cheaper to lower your electric/ energy impact first.

Next you'll need to figure out is just how much power you'll need to be able to have to run everything off the genset.

Net-metering is done not this way, a really great way to learn about it for your particular area is to contact your local providers. They will be able to tell you if there are programs and how to go about it"legally"

One other little thing you might want to find out is the if you get charged a "minimum" amount even if you use no power. :-)


The gensets can/do run nicely on WVO or SVO. the heating part is the best way to go if you're not converting to Bio-D this will help lower coke(ing). You may have other issues depending on your oil source(s).

There's a GRAND gent down in S.Carolina that runs it and when he fills the tank, after the oil has sat for weeks its as clear as new, far as I know he's not had any problems with it.

He doesn't run his house, barn or anything like that on it but it does run nicely.

Pepa> you want to chime in here?


Best of luck, send pics of your setup when possible.

Cheers

Bruce S


   

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 03:16:28 PM by Bruce S »
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Bruce S

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5413
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2009, 03:24:09 PM »
TTR;

 you chimed in while I was typing :-) work got in the way :-/

3 Phase is a different part of the equation, and I did not see that in your 1st post.

IF you need 3phase and the genset does this, then I would say jump on it with all fours and run before the seller can change his mind. BUT that is for the 3phase need not net-metering.


Go with what you posted 1st, check with local providers and go through the hoops of being "legal".

For sure use the genset for your 3phase needs. you'll save in the long run by not having to have 3phase setup installed. <read NOT CHEAP> where you need it.

The genset sounds as if it'll also be portable, makes life a bit easier to bring 3phase where you need it :-)


Some more detail are needed now to go any further.

3 phase power needed

genset size, Kw(h)

home power daily heaviest need.


Cheers

Brcue S

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 03:24:09 PM by Bruce S »
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

electronbaby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
  • Country: us
    • Windsine.org
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2009, 06:12:29 PM »
Sorry for the brief response earlier (had to juggle a couple things). Here is a detailed response, now that we know more details that were not included in the original post.


Net metering is usually meant to allow the utility account holder to offset his annual on site electrical consumption. This is usually done with renewables but it does not technically need to be this way. Energy is generated every month or billing period. If the amount of energy produced is greater than the energy you consumed that billing period, the credit is carried over to the next billing period and you get a bill for just the service charges associated with the privilege of having an electric account. If you generated less than you used, then you would get a bill for the difference. Note that you are credited for the full retail cost of electricity from the utility that you put into the "bank". Think of this as a 100% efficient "battery".  Since the net metering cycle with most utilities lasts for one year from date of meter installation, you can carry your KWH credits forward for one year. At the end of one year, the utility usually has to "true up" your account. They will usually pay you for any excess energy you produced (more than you consumed in one year) at the avoided cost (some utilities vary so check with yours). There are also many other rules. For instance the utility in my area requires the generating equipment to not produce more than 110% of your annual consumption (PERIOD). If you think about this long and hard, it will become apparent that you will never turn a profit by installing more capacity than you need. This is done purposefully, and at the utilities discretion, you may or may not even be granted the ability to inter-connect. With that said, you need to look at the whole picture, the yearly usage. It is measured in KWH's (energy/time). Most utilities, if not all, do it this way in the US, granted the utility supports or offers a net metering agreement to the end users. You must sign a parallel generation agreement, and a single phase attachment agreement to allow your energy producing equipment to be tied to the utilities equipment. In the US, you will need to use a UL certified and type tested piece of equipment to do this. It could be an inverter, or a generator meant for backfeeding. The latter are rare and expensive, and usually it is done with an inverter (which is totally fine and works quite well if done right). The inverter usually needs to be UL1741 and IEEE listed for Anti-Islanding protection. Im sure your generator does not do this. Therefore you will most likely be using an inverter to accomplish what you want to do.

You will most likely be required to have a few electrical inspections before your system can be activated. One usually by the underwriter, and one by the utility. Your system will need to be installed possibly by a master electrician and be installed to NEC code (depends on your townships requirements).

In most instances, the inverters are installed with a solar PV or small wind system. These are renewable resources, and this is what gets the utility "brownie points" as far as any Fed energy mandates are concerned. The utilities want really bad to hold onto the Renewable Energy Credits (REC's) when these systems are installed, because thats what matters in their eyes and this is what in the end justifies their huge amounts of dollars pumped into their renewable energy portfolios. Your generator running on WVO carries no REC's and therefore the utility is that much more likely to give you the cold shoulder. But go ahead and try. Its a lot of hoops to jump through. If you would be willing to put in PV or wind, it might be a different story. Just based on my experience. I have never tried to connect my WVO generator to the grid (even though I have the capability) and I choose to remain off grid for my equipment testing abilities.


If you are planning on using the generator to generate 3 phase because  you dont currently have this capability, that is another story. You still will be required to have some sort of means to convert the 3 phase to at least single phase 240v for grid tie purposes if this the type of account you have. The utility might not like this, although in my opinion, what is on the customer side of an inverter should be the customers  business.


These are just some thoughts off the top of my head.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 06:12:29 PM by electronbaby »
Have Fun!!!  RoyR KB2UHF

Bruce S

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5413
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2009, 06:46:28 AM »
RoyR;

NOW that is a great write up of Net-Metering, this should be in the FAQs!!


Cheers!

Bruce S

« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 06:46:28 AM by Bruce S »
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

electronbaby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
  • Country: us
    • Windsine.org
Re: Veg oil fuel Gen and net metering
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 11:36:28 PM »
so, did we answer your questions? im curious to see which route you chose????
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 11:36:28 PM by electronbaby »
Have Fun!!!  RoyR KB2UHF