Author Topic: Bush's energy policy  (Read 514 times)

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henjulfox

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Bush's energy policy
« on: April 28, 2005, 01:36:45 AM »
Read today that Bush has announced his energy policy. Build more nukes and

refineries. Not a single stinkin' word about renewables! More importantly, not a

penny for renewables!


Come on, folks, anyone with a moderate IQ can figure out that non-renewables (by

definition) will not last forever. Current oil pricing is saying that the supply and

demand curves are approaching each other. When the 2 lines meet, bad things happen.


A few dozen farsighted folks on this discussion board are doing more for the

long-term success of our society than the president of this great nation. Man, I

was upset when I read that article. I feel slightly better now, but only slightly.

-Henry

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 01:36:45 AM by (unknown) »

outback

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2005, 08:17:33 PM »
keep your chin up Henry
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 08:17:33 PM by outback »

nothing to lose

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2005, 08:30:39 PM »
Although I agree with you mostly,


"Current oil pricing is saying that the supply and

demand curves are approaching each other."


Not at all, prices only show they are getting away with raising prices high.


I agree the supply is limited, but it has nothing to do with prices.

 If I were the only person that owned 5 cars in the county and you desperatly needed to go some where I could charge anything I wanted to loan you a car. Nothing to do with my having more supply than your one demand. I got 5, you have to have one, I get any price I want for it from you, I sit on the other 4 there is no demand for. More supply than demand, but only one crappy vendor that's gouging hard.

 You say I have more than I can rent anyway, I say oh well you have none and that's my price take it or leave it. That is how supply and demand works in todays world for many items!


MS Windows is not worth the high price either, but we have to have it, so we pay for it, patch it once a week because it's junk, but we have no real choice. There is no shortage of CD's though is there? It's not supply and demand, it's I got it, you want it, you pay the price or do without.


What I like is the build more refineries??? Why? We can refine it just fine, no problem! We need to get it first, that's the problem!

« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 08:30:39 PM by nothing to lose »

electrondady1

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2005, 08:44:52 PM »
today i saw a news clip of george w holding hands  and walking with a saudi prince ,
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 08:44:52 PM by electrondady1 »

wdyasq

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Windows or a real OS?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2005, 09:00:11 PM »
MS Windows is not worth the high price either, but we have to have it, so we pay for it, patch it once a week because it's junk, but we have no real choice. There is no shortage of CD's though is there? It's not supply and demand, it's I got it, you want it, you pay the price or do without.


Option: Use :LINUX, like the computers that are the backbone of the internet do.  Like many who frequent here do.


I think an energy policy should address things other than what this administration has. It is still more energy policy than the last three presidents combined IIRC.


Ron

« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 09:00:11 PM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

henjulfox

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2005, 09:00:53 PM »
Not fair! You're using logic against my random ranting.


You are of course correct. What I have trouble with is figuring out if you have 5 cars or only 1. I've read both answers from "experts". near as I can figure, you have more than 1, but I don't know if it's 2 or 5, and some are unavailable at the moment.


In either case, I gotta get my own car if I want to get away from your gouging.


-Henry

« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 09:00:53 PM by henjulfox »

windstuffnow

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2005, 09:05:01 PM »
  I listened to his speach from start to finish on CNN this afternoon.  Actually he did mention wind and solar but only briefly.  His main talk was about nukes, hydrogen and natural gas as well as drilling in Alaska for more oil and building more refineries so we don't have to import refined gas.  Personally I think he's going in the wrong direction for long term self sufficiency... but hey.. I'm just a consumer.  The only thing he mentioned in the short term was offering tax incentives to buy hybrids.  As well he touched on bio diesel and cleaning up the exhaust so more diesels could be added to our roads.


   I doubt, I'll see much change in my lifetime but someone sometime will step in and do some good.  It's bushes last term in office...


Windstuff Ed

 

« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 09:05:01 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

BT Humble

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2005, 09:32:05 PM »


What I like is the build more refineries??? Why? We can refine it just fine, no problem! We need to get it first, that's the problem!


Because it's a lot easier to keep a refinery secure & unbombed in the USA than in Iraq.


BTH

« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 09:32:05 PM by BT Humble »

Tom in NH

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2005, 09:39:20 PM »
Pitiful. It should be evident that we can't trust our politicians and leaders to solve this problem. Am I the only one who feels like Rome is burning and everyone, our leaders and our citizens, are just sitting there diddling?


There is a worldwide shortage of silicon solar cells because so many people in Europe are installing solar. They are right out front in wind development too. Then we look at what the pitiful effort of the US. We have our president play the blame game (again) saying it's congress' fault because it didn't pass an energy policy four years ago.


Well, our oil companies are going to extract every last drop of oil out of the ground wherever it is to be found and at whatever price. Our leaders are going to sit and bicker with each other over whose fault it is. If we don't take matters into our own hands and do it ourselves, we're sunk.


Are there any politicians out there reading this? If there is even just one, my message to you is, WAKE UP! This is our future we're dealing with. --tom

« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 09:39:20 PM by Tom in NH »

wooferhound

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2005, 10:08:34 PM »
politicians don't make wind Generators
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 10:08:34 PM by wooferhound »

Chiron

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2005, 11:10:27 PM »
Electric rates may double, Hmmmmm


Minnesota uses "net metering", Hmmmm


Got to finish that stator.....

« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 11:10:27 PM by Chiron »

MelTx

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2005, 04:43:43 AM »


  Here is the real equation:


    Take one George[haliburton]Bush & add one Dick[haliburton]Chaney and what do you get ?  TWO THEIFS THAT WILL MURDER FOR OIL MONEY. Its that simple.They are murdering those kids in Iraq to fill their pockets.Just listing to the evening will tell you that.Just go to any search engine and type in national debt.A quick glance will tell you that since 1980 when reagan took office that the G.O.P have stole almost 8 trillion dollars.It would have taken many Major problems a day to warrant that kind of debt.Those major problems did not occur,the G.O.P. stole the money.The kind of debt they are putting on us now is designed, to ensure you will be their economic slaves for generations to come.Please belive me.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 04:43:43 AM by MelTx »

Gary D

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2005, 06:28:03 AM »
Gee, if Bush had added just a few words about the National current Immedient need for carpooling to make up for a shortage of refined gas, just for a few weeks.... Agreed that he's from Texas and calling on using less would stick in his throat... Hopefully congress will pass a true energy bill with renewables at the forefront, ignoring most of HIS wishlist  Would love to see wind, methane, and smaller run of river hydro on existing low head dams here in Pa., but HUGE plants are the TEXAS way... Gary D.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 06:28:03 AM by Gary D »

wdyasq

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Truth
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2005, 07:49:01 AM »
First of all, the Bush family is NOT from Texas.  And, Texas was the last state to tie into the continental 'grid'.  


Control of power allows control of the individual through centralized distribution.  By first making electricity cheap and universal part of control through power was implimented.  Now 95% of Americans get their news through electrical media (TV).  Folks seldom research and truth is not part of the thought process.


There is a lot of economy in scale.  I feel sure when low head electrical power becomes practical AGAIN, it will be implimented.  It is not ecomomical because of the massive distribution system that encourages HUGE powerplants.  (It also makes for more centralized targets for those not desiring folks to have the 'American lifestyle'.)


I do feel if we could capture all the methane comming out of our national and state capitols and redirect it to a real energy solution it could be done.  I fear the 'testocular fortitude' of our overpaid politicians is only matched by the 'collective ignorance' of the voting population.


Ron

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 07:49:01 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

kitno455

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2005, 08:38:50 AM »
yes, in fact they do. if i could get get a wind gen right in front of the speakers podium in congress, we'd be set for life!


allan

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 08:38:50 AM by kitno455 »

finnsawyer

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2005, 09:28:09 AM »
Here in Michi-tax-again the State says wind power is currently only truly feasible along the western shore of Lake Superior, where I happen to live.  The U. P. has some 300,000 souls.  The western U. P. less. The power potential may be there, but the market is not.  Anyway wind power, like water power, is limited.  As I've said before, watch Haliburton.  When it gets interested in space exploration, you know space based power systems are not far off.  The Sun's energy is going by 24/7.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 09:28:09 AM by finnsawyer »

Jeff7

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2005, 10:09:50 AM »
I see one thing that indicates that the oil companies realize full well that the oil will run out, and solar power will factor big in the future:


Shell now owns Seimens Solar.


BP markets Castrol and Arco - and their own line of solar cells.


Seems that they have seen that oil is not a sustainable source of revenue.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 10:09:50 AM by Jeff7 »

boarder girl

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2005, 10:49:12 AM »
I feel your pain.  Passed the Energy bill on Earth Day to add insult to injury!There is hope, though.  Do an internet search on Renewable Energy Credits or Green tags.  Check out the side of a Silk Soy Milk Carton...there is an article titled "Whoa, the answer really is blowing in the wind". (visit silkissoy.com)  I was so impressed with what the White Wave company is doing (taking steps to grow the renewable energy markets), that I am trying to convience my company, which is a fortune 200 company to do the same.  Check it out and do all you can to call company's attention to the Renewable Energy Credit program.

: ) Lori
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 10:49:12 AM by boarder girl »

jomoco

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2005, 03:27:06 PM »
Why is it that all you guys can rant and rave and make derogatory remarks about georgey boy and successfully post them, but when I do it my comments get deleted right away? I can't stand the guy and his poisonous policies either!


I've noticed that a majority of developed nations are getting serious government backing and support for renewable energy developement, while we here in the U.S. are getting nothing but lip service from george and his poisonous pals as they line their pockets any way they can.


I'm not surprized at all that he's pointing us in such a downward direction, in fact I think it may be a good way to shake some sense into the voters the next time they cast a ballot. When someone refuses to wake up, a swift kick in the pants usually works. Sad but true.


jomoco

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 03:27:06 PM by jomoco »

ghurd

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2005, 04:29:06 PM »
Everybody wants to heat with wood, but nobody wants to cut down trees.


Shell, BP, GE (wind and PVs now too), etc...


I think they want to be able to say, with a straight face, "But we do SOOO much for RE.  Look at our PVs and windmills!!!  We WANT the world to reduce consumption of all the fossil fuels we make trillions selling every year with no end in sight!"


Can not really see how Bush could really do anything anyway.

Look at Clinton's "million solar rooftop initiative" or whatever he called it.  It didn't really DO anything.

They can not do anything with teeth because of congress.


Not saying either of them did or did not want to do something, just I don't believe they could without a lot of backing, that they are NOT going to get from congress.


A LOT of states make a LOT of money because of shipping, refining, drilling, digging, using...  Directly or indirectly.


Many of us fight to get a single PV on the garage roof, or a 200w windmill installed legally.  We just fight 1 guy (building inspector, mayor, etc), or maybe 6 (city, township or county council).


The President, whoever he may be at the time, is fighting several hundred congressmen probably funded by fuel money one way or another.


Again, not saying they want to, just that they probably can't anyway.


Takes a majority. Unless they chamged that part when I wasn't looking.


If we want to heat with wood, we need to cut down some trees.


G-

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 04:29:06 PM by ghurd »
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sh123469

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2005, 04:54:15 PM »
"Pitiful. It should be evident that we can't trust our politicians and leaders to solve this problem. Am I the only one who feels like Rome is burning and everyone, our leaders and our citizens, are just sitting there diddling?"


You pretty much hit it but should have just left it at It should be evident that we can't trust our politicians and leaders.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 04:54:15 PM by sh123469 »

henjulfox

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2005, 08:11:33 PM »
On further reflection - maybe the policy could turn out for the good. I've heard that some wind turbine projects suffer from NIMBY syndrome. Now given a choice between a nuke plant, an oil refinery and a wind turbine, I'm thinking a whole lot of people might like a turbine in their back yard.

-Henry
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 08:11:33 PM by henjulfox »

TERRYWGIPE

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2005, 09:21:37 PM »
When I was in Alaska a few years back, I found the gas prices to be higher there than the rest of the lower 48 states. I asked why there prices are higher with the oil from the pipeline? they told me that none of that oil even stays in the U.s.All that oil ends up in Europe and Japan," the price is higher there. Big buisness and the O.P.E C.    contries are the problem.


Terry

« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 09:21:37 PM by TERRYWGIPE »

morgan5152

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2005, 11:05:28 PM »
 This is my first comment. I just wanted to add something about the Bush energy policy. I am currently serving in Iraq and I thought you might want to know that Iraq had the 3rd largest oil reserves before the war and since the war the pumping potential has been 80-90% restored. We have to bring our fuel in from Kuwait, Turkey, and Jordan. It is a constant struggle everyday to bring in enough fuel to support our operations not to mention the danger our soldiers face driving hundreds of miles across Iraq. We have not gained any oil supply security as the public might think will occur because of our actions here. Agreeing with many of everybody else's comments, we will have to put pressure in the balloting box and do more of the right thing ourselves.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2005, 11:05:28 PM by morgan5152 »

ghurd

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2005, 05:52:14 AM »
Every drop Iraq pumps is that much more someone else isn't getting from Kuwait, Turkey or Jordan.  80-90% restored? Shouldn't that mean the prices can come down now?  Put $45 of regular in a Toyota last week.


Keep you head down.

G-

« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 05:52:14 AM by ghurd »
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Wolvenar

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2005, 01:24:24 AM »
Yup, but they get you with a little addition to the laws governing thier requirement to  aceept power fed back in Mn..


They are allowed to require you to pay for safety measure equipment, ( ok this I can understand kinda).

Also they are allowed to make you carry insurances, pay any upgrades to the power system leading to your point of feed, and dozens of other things. There seem to be no definitive limitations on what these requirements are, how much they can charge you, or what suitable safety measures are.


How often do you think that this situation has, or will be leveraged to either stop a person from gridtie,  or realize free upgrades or insane profit?

« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 01:24:24 AM by Wolvenar »
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BeenzMeenzWind

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2005, 08:31:12 AM »
A brief word about the energy (read tax) policy in the UK, just so you don't think the problem is purely a US one.


I'll start with road transport, as that's the REALLY expensive one.


Here we pay over $6.00 per gallon for petrol or diesel. Diesel has recently become slightly more expensive than petrol because, simply, it is more efficient. Your car will do more miles per gallon with a modern diesel engine than with an equally modern petrol. UK government answer- make diesel proportionally dearer so they don't lose out on their tax revenues (while claiming that diesels are dirty and produce dangerous levels of particulates. Old ones may have done..). At present 47.1p, that's almost a dollar at current rate of exchange, of the price of every LITRE of fuel is tax paid to the government. There are approx 4.54 litres in a British gallon. I believe yours is slightly different?


In addition to that, UK motorists are required to pay car tax every year. This costs less if you have a PETROL car with an engine smaller than 1.3l, slightly more above that and £160 if you drive a diesel or a car with an engine above 1999 cc. That means that almost any American made car (we have Chryslers and stuff here, now) is liable for the maximum rate. Note, the tax varies with 'pollution index', so you can drive a Saab 95 2 litre, which has been proven in tests to actually CLEAN the air that goes through it and still pay the maximum rate. Of course it produces CO2 and water vapour like any combustion process but as near to zero of anything else as to make no difference. So by driving one you are actually helping to suck up and clean the emissions of less efficient cars. But you pay the maximum rate!


On top of that, you have to a safety test called an MOT every year, which costs about £40. Good idea! Make sure cars are safe. However, we also have an agency called VOSA, which drives round, doing roadside checks on vehicles. If your vehicle fails for just about ANY reason, you can't drive it until it's been repaired and re-MOTed. They usually frequent major roads, a fair distance from any town centre or garage, just to make it harder for you!!


You also have to have insurance. Again a good thing! Except that your premium has a 'value-added tax' of 17.5% added to it. What value does an insurance policy have? None at all, unless you have an accident. Oh, yeah, in the UK you are automatically at fault in an accident if you have no insurance, even if the other guy runs into you while you're parked up reading the paper.


If you buy a new car, it costs you on average £3000 in sales tax to drive it off the dealer's forecourt. You sell it on the next day and that money is gone.

Fuel stations obviously have to pay tax on their profits, as do the oil companies and all the employees involved in the fuel industry.

It mounts up real quick, doesn't it.


The government's reasoning for all the above: Cars are bad! They cause congestion, pollution and kill people in accidents. Not about raising revenue at all, then?

They say we should all use public transport, buses, trains, etc.

A nice idea, and in places like Singapore, one that works!

Here, you're wasting your time unless you live in London or one of the few other MAJOR cities. It will commonly take you 4-5 times longer to get somewhere and back than if you just drove. Of course, they're pedestrianizing as many areas as they can, so you don't have that choice.


Is there any policy in place to use vehicles powered by alternative energy? Yes. You can use biodiesel, as long as you pay the 27.1p / litre tax on it.

You can use CNG or LPG, which is about half the price of petrol or diesel, but the conversion costs a packet and subsidies are only available to new cars. You do it to your 1 year old, super-efficient Toyota and you get zip.

A VERY small amount of money is available as government grants to any company involved in researching clean energy, though the regulations governing that are so complex as to be incomprhensible.


There are now a glut of utility companies here, all of whom charge virtually the same for their gas and electricity. ie: too much! I'm ashamed to say I briefly worked for one of them. It involved cold-calling and trying to hassle customers into switching companies so that they could get a cheaper tarrif. In a lot of cases, the people I spoke to would be slightly worse off by changing (not to mention the hassle involved!), but we were told to lie and do it anyway. I didn't last long.


You can legally fit PV panels, to your roof only, without needing planning consent in most of the UK. Put them on a pole and you need approval. Make them track the sun, you need approval. The rules in my county are fairly typical. You can't have them facing a main road without planning approval. Presumably they're worried about glare dazzling passing motorists? Don't see how that could happen, though, given the angles. You can't raise the height of the roofline by more than a certain amount. If your neighbours, their dog or any passer-by complains about it, you then need to get approval. And so on, ad nauseum.


You can't use any wind turbine in an urban or rural area without consent, which in a town you are extremely unlikely to get. Out in the sticks, they'll pretty much let you do it, subject to planning approval and an approval of the materials you intend to use. In practice, I know a few people who've just gone ahead and done it without asking anyone and have had no problem. Of course, there is that thing with complaining neighbours again..


There are quite impressive goverment grants available for PV installations and I believe wind turbines as well, but there is a catch...

You have to have them professionally installed to qualify. It's electrical work and MUST be carried out by an approved contractor. (you can't even add a couple of sockets to a wall now without planning approval and using a certified contractor!)

I'm also fairly sure that the really good grants are available only for grid-tie systems, with the expensive equipment at your own expense.


Luckily I AM a qualified electrician and will very soon have industry approval. A conversation I've had with our local planning officer suggests that even then, I may not be allowed to carry out work on my OWN property, depending on future legislation. And I can't install PVs for anyone else, even if it's an unpaid favour for a friend, without doing a course, which costs £800, and getting NICEIC registration, which costs £360ish a year.


We're building a new rural house when this renovation project is done. Do you think I'm going to comply with all that crap?


I won't go into the UK stance on fusion research, deep-ocean geothermal, wind farms, wave power, etc. Google it. It's depressingly obvious.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 08:31:12 AM by BeenzMeenzWind »

bob golding

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2005, 06:29:04 PM »
i thought they did most of the refining at point of delivery not in the oilfields? no expert.  but when theu ship it it is crude oil.


bob golding

« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 06:29:04 PM by bob golding »
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

farmerfrank

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2005, 08:32:50 AM »
Things really are getting tough. I see Bush and DeLay are plane pooling on Air Force 1.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 08:32:50 AM by farmerfrank »

Jeff7

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Re: Bush's energy policy
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2005, 07:58:31 AM »
Use wood pellet fuel - right now, they buy up sawdust from sawmills, which would have otherwise been put in landfills. It's made into pellets, bagged, and sold that way. Burns pretty darn efficiently too.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2005, 07:58:31 AM by Jeff7 »