Author Topic: Need help in South Florida  (Read 372 times)

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KingDon

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Need help in South Florida
« on: August 29, 2005, 03:02:21 AM »


Hi Guys, I've been reading your site for a while now and watching the different wind mill generators being built, and I've loved every minute of it.  I live down in south florida and after this last hurricane (Katrina) just went through, I found myself without power for 4 days, 4 very hot long days.  My power has just come back on, but I want to have a stand by system for the next time, like a fan and a window air conditioner for one room. 110V at 11 amps


I've seen some power inverters for 2000 watts, and that should be able to handle my little back up system.  I have a 400 watt inverter that I hooked up to my car for this storm and was able to power the tv and a couple of fans, but the heat is murder down here, so I have to find a way to get some AC, even a little.


I have always though of building a couple of those 200 watt wooden wind mills, and then just having a battery bank to dip into when the power went sour.  Funny thing about the days after the hurricane, we have no power and lots of wind.  


What I want to know is, if I get 3 good batteries, a 2000 watt inverter and then just run jumper cables to the batteries from my car, would I be in good shape until I ran out of gas?  I know you guys are lucky enough to live in remote places with power, but the hurricane season is coming and I don't want to be stuck in the dark.  Thanks for any help you can provide.


Don@AudioMinds.com

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 03:02:21 AM by (unknown) »

DanG

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2005, 09:29:48 PM »
After Monday evening there will be lotsa people doing just what you did...


If possible whatever you do don't be rigging stuff w/ jumper cables, especially if it will be unattended or running while you sleep. Take the time to make a permanent power point under the hood that can work acceptably w/ higher currents. With alot of wind and loose stuff blowing around sounds like a way to burn up an auto or worse.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 09:29:48 PM by DanG »

steak2k1

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2005, 09:41:33 PM »
Hi King Don:


I'm not one of the experts here by any stretch...but one thing for sure, I would suggest that you don't use auto type batteries for a back up...a 2000 watt inverter will kill em in about a heartbeat. They are used for high amps for a short period of time.. to start a car.  Deep cycles are more for the steady slow release of power.


Second, and I use the Trojan T105 (110 Amp/hrs), type for my RE uses, one needs to keep any battery fully charged up at all times...So when there is normal power, you still need to keep your batts charged...always.  Letting them discharge slowly will kill them just as quick as overcharging.


So..



  1. V @ 11 Amps = 1320 Watts.  2000 watt inverter should do it...but lets look at what kind of battery bank / power you would need:
  2. V @ 110 AMPS = (1320 watts) ie; 110 Amps/hr = is 1 hour with 1 batt.! 3 batts gives you about 3 hours till they are drained 100%, given ya really don't want to discharge past say 50%, that knocks it down to 1.5 hours of cool air...!!


Got a pool..??


Yea I know with a small wind genny there would be some return to the batts but that assumes you could continuously generate lets say 1500 watts on a 24/7 basis.  First of all that would require a pretty good sized mill..10'+ diam rotor and a serious tower of 40+ '.  As well as some very STEADY & good wind speeds....for a back-up system..tis gettin pretty serious and big.


check out the many posts and info here and you will get a very good idea as to what you would need.  AC IMHOP is a MAJOR drag on any system.  HUGE power requirements.  


Me..??  I'd move to Canada.  LOL..!!  No humididty in the west and no Hurricanes either.!


Unfortunately, there is no free ride in RE power..as I have come to find out..but it is great fun and the satisfaction of generating ones own power is A-OK.!


hope this helps some...and I stand to be corrected by any of the wunderkinds here, on my assumptions and me math.


rgds and good luck,


stk


 

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 09:41:33 PM by steak2k1 »

Phil Timmons

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2005, 11:14:58 PM »
This may sound lame and un-inspired, RE-wise, but I am thinking a generic, run-of-the-mill portable generator.  


One we have that I like has really big wheels on it and a pull handle -- goes anywhere easy.  Even rolls up stairs.  3500 watt, but only 120 volt.  Got it at Lowes (like Homer Depot) for $399.  That and a 5000 btu, $100 window A/C and you are living high style.


Add a couple of 5 gallon gas cans and you are covered.  We use maybe 3 to 4 gallons on hard working (for the generator) 10 hour shift.  Nice thing about it being "normal," and nothing weird, you can help other folks in the neighborhood when you/they need.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 11:14:58 PM by Phil Timmons »

benjamindees

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2005, 11:25:09 PM »
if I get 3 good batteries, a 2000 watt inverter and then just run jumper cables to the batteries from my car, would I be in good shape until I ran out of gas?


Sounds like a good setup to me.  Be sure to get deep cycle batteries.  Most car alternators are rated at 65-100 amps, which is 750-1200 watts.  So, depending on your load, you may be running the car quite a bit to keep the batteries topped off.


And, of course, all of those components can be added to a RE system later on if you decide.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 11:25:09 PM by benjamindees »

thunderhead

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2005, 11:54:22 PM »
Don't forget that deep cycle batteries should not be used to start the car.  In the same way that deep cycles kill ordinary car batteries, the heavy discharge of the starter will kill deep cycle batteries.

There are a few batteries that are good at both, although they are expensive. The Optima "Yellow Top" AGMs are claimed by the manufacturer to provide both starting current and deep cycle capability, for example.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 11:54:22 PM by thunderhead »

wdyasq

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Cost
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2005, 05:03:21 AM »
One should remember the cost of the advice here is sometimes worth exactly what is paid, nothing.


Before investing anything in a project one should do independant verification of the feasibility and costs of a project.


Your mileage may vary and other sorts of disclaimers.


Ron

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 05:03:21 AM by wdyasq »
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nothing to lose

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2005, 05:55:39 AM »
Try to help here a bit where I can.


First, as said, forget the jumper cables and wire it right. Good connection from your batteries to the inverter with heavy wires. You could get by with heavy duty jumpers perhaps from the car to the extra batteries, but not jumpers to the inverter!

Side mount battery in your car would be very bad! You should have a top post battery for connections. You can buy cable ends for top post type batteriers that have a bolt sticking up also, getting a set of those and bolting the conection would be best but more trouble and you should disconnect when ever your not running the engine so you don't end up with a dead car battery.


Better than using the car at all, find a junk lawn mower that runs, use the engine from that to run a GM 1 wire altenator for charging your batteries. Use alot less gas and it works better and is portable so you can put it places the car won't fit :)

Do a search here for homemade 12V gennies and you should find some posts about these.

Very easy to build if you can tinker a bit.


A good small windmill would be good to start to. Once you have everything for emergency use you can use it full time and save on your power bill also, not just wait for the next storm. Search here about some of the DC motor gennies. The 200Watt wood one is nice, not really alot of power, but why not go for some extra power full time cheap.


You probably have ALOT of golf courses in your area, T-105s are used for golf carts, look for used ones and save a bundle! Either from golf courses or cart service and sales shops. I can get them here for $10 each :)

 Golf carts use alot of power and no-one wants stuck on the 17th hole with dead batteries so they are normally replaced even though they are fine.


T-105's are actually 225 amp hours when figured at the normal 20 hour rate, not 110amps. Most deepcycle batteries are figured at the 20 hour rate. In RE service we don't normally put the high load on a few batteries like driving a golf cart around half the day. Heck I even had the golf cart dealer tell me T105's are 110amphr batteries, then someone here told me they were 225amp hour, then I checked right on the trojan battery website and they say 225amphrs at 20 hours.


T-105 is a 6V battery, you have to use them in pairs wired for 12V and 225amp hour per pair. Use several pairs, many as you can buy. Getting back to the amp hour rating at 20 hrs, the more batteries you have the less power each battery has to provide under any givin load, less they have to provide the longer they will last. Your total AMPs available from a battery will encrease the slower you discharge it. So at say 20 Hrs you get total 225amps, but at 6 hours you may only get the 110amps. So if the load is constant (basically) then spreading it out over a greater number of batteries will let them discharge slower, extend the run time, and also provide more total amps. That is compared to trying to run the same large load on say 1/2 as many batteries which drains them faster and they then provide less total amps. So more is better here in several ways.


What Steak said here,

"12V @ 110 AMPS = (1320 watts) ie; 110 Amps/hr = is 1 hour with 1 batt.! 3 batts gives you about 3 hours till they are drained 100%, given ya really don't want to discharge past say 50%, that knocks it down to 1.5 hours of cool air...!!"


That is correct and draining them that fast is hard on them so you'll probably kill them before long. Also as I said, faster you drain them less total amps you get so in 3 hours you may not even get the 330amp/2= 50% @ 165amps total from 3 sets. Course if you have power from a gennie/car at the time you run the airconditionare that helps a great deal, you'll be using the 60-100amps from the car and the batteries making up the difference somewhat. It is hard on a car engine to idle long periods like that though, and at an idle you'll probably be getting less than full power from the altenator depending on your vehicle and other variables.


 You may want to reconsider the airconditionare for now or use it as little as posible. At 110Amps (actually more) at 12Vdc you will have to run a car putting out 100amps for over an hour for each hour of air you run just to catch up, even if running the car same time as the air you loose over 10amps from the batteries per hour, even if all were perfect which it won't be. But at least you can have fans and other goodies anyway that use less power.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 05:55:39 AM by nothing to lose »

Volvo farmer

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2005, 06:50:40 AM »
I have to agree with Phil here. In your application, you want enough power to run a window AC unit, TV and lights for four or five days a year, maybe you won't even need it one or two years in a row. A solar sytem is going to cost two grand and will sit idle most of the time. A generator is the most sensible solution to your problem.


I think there's no way you're going to relaibly start a window AC uit with a cheap 2K watt inverter. I have a 1500 watt inverter that won't even start my Craftsman circular saw.  Inductive loads are going to surge 5-10X the running wattage of the appliance and  are often too much for these little cheap 2000 watt inverters. Maybe a 5000 watt would work but then you're into the $600 range, and you haven't bought batteries, panels, or wiring yet. AC is going to need a whopping big battery bank for a 4 day reserve as well. I don't feel like doing the math but I'd bet you need a couple dozen T-105s to do this.


If you want to spend some money, get one of those nifty inverter-generators that Honda or Yamaha make. Those things are majorly quiet and are extremely fuel efficient.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 06:50:40 AM by Volvo farmer »
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ghurd

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2005, 08:03:01 AM »
I'd still add a small (85AH) deep cycle battery and inverter for a clock radio, and a CFL or 2.

Can charge the battery while the generator is running. Can run the radio and lights when its not running. Probably only cost about $60~75 extra.

Maybe even one of those $25 5" b+w TVs? Many can run straight off 12V.

G-

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 08:03:01 AM by ghurd »
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maker of toys

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2005, 10:31:51 AM »
Don't do it unless you ahve a Hybrid car, and can tap the hybrid side.  (and aren't put-off by 200+volts of battery or a voided warranty)


true, you can get 12V alternators that are rated for 100 amps-

BUT:  not at idle and not continuously. . .  certainly not continuously at idle!


the true heavy duty alternators are the sort that mount in semi trucks or busses, and they tend to be for 24V.


then there's the little question of belt wear. . . a fully-loaded alternator puts a tremendous stress on a belt, particularly if it's driving other accessories, too.  and if you broke a belt on a dark and stormy night, you'd be in a pickle, because the car would overheat and bake its engine.


also there's the security aspect-  here in Cali, a running, unoccupied car vanishes pretty fast.  (heck, some OCCUPIED ones vanish . . . )


 there are purveyors of underhood 120VAC, 60Hz systems that are good for 5 Kw or so-  that might be worth looking into.


but the cheapest, most reliable option is probably the good-old-fashioned  purpose-built portable gasoline genset.


or you could just go sleep in the car and run its AC. . . <G>

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 10:31:51 AM by maker of toys »

benjamindees

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2005, 03:13:08 PM »
12 V @ 110 AMPS = (1320 watts) ie; 110 Amps/hr = is 1 hour with 1 batt.! 3 batts gives you about 3 hours till they are drained 100%, given ya really don't want to discharge past say 50%, that knocks it down to 1.5 hours of cool air...!!


A small air conditioner will use half that at most once started.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 03:13:08 PM by benjamindees »

KingDon

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Re: Need help in South Florida
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2005, 10:24:59 PM »


I just want to say thinks to everyone who responded in this thread, I read them all and have thought about many things you guys pointed out.  Here's what my new plan is looking like.


Get a battery bank; going to try and get some used golf cart batteries as suggested.  Not sure what to say when I call the golf coarse, but hopefully I can find someone who needs to unload a few of them.  If they can be had for $10 a piece, I'll take 10 and build a nice little bank in the corner of the yard.


I'm going to get a small generator, maybe 2000 watts, a battery charger, a 3000 watt inverter and a 400 watt windmill.  Could you guys suggest the best way to go for each of these?


Small 2000 watt generator


Batter charger for the bank



  1. /6000 power inverter
  2. watt windmill


Asking for golf cart batteries.


Am I missing anything else? (I'm betting I am)  Thank you once again for lending you ideas, this will be fun!


Don

« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 10:24:59 PM by KingDon »