Community based wind/solar power system...

[windstuffnow]

Instead of big companies putting in there huge turbines and/or solar and paying for everything plus big buildings, huge CEO wages and all the luxuries we don't benifit from I propose a community based instalation program.

For instance, say each home is reasonably energy efficient and the electric usage is averaged at around 600kwh per month. Lets say it cost approximately 500,000 to install 1.5Mw of solar and wind. The comunity would consist of about 2500 homes sharing the 1.5Mw. Each home owner would need to pay an upfront cost of 300.00 for the purchase of panels and turbines as well as instalation. There would be a small monthly fee for continuous maintenance of say 20.00 each. Electric would be free for each home involved so 20 bux a month is simply pocket change in comparison to their used to be normal electric payment.

Now, the maintenance fee's provided would go directly to an escrow account which would accumulate approximately 600,000.00 anually. If maintenance was less expensive than the accumulated maintenance fee the system could be expanded by the excess to include other connected communities.

This would be a non-profit community power based organization so all the funds collected would go back into the system such as repairing turbines, replacing faulty panels and wages of the technitions doing the work.

This would be far better than the Pickens plan to build billions of dollars worth of wind turbines and charge everyone for thier use continuously forever. This way it is a one time up front cost and a very small maintenance fee to maintain the system.

This would be far cheaper than individual instalations costing 2-10,000 each.

This is simply an initial draft of some ideas I've been tossing around.... any thoughts or other expansive ideas?

.

[spinningmagnets]

Sounds like the difference between a credit union and a bank.

In southwest Utah there is a lot of sunshine. St George is a popular "snowbird" retreat when the north is snowy. The city started a solar PV project and the initial phase-I would add enough to the grid (during the daytime, of course) to power 25 homes.

http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080905/NEWS01/809050308/1002/NEWS17

The project may be expanded later, and it will reduce the daytime electrical draw from Hoover Dam (Las Vegas).

The interesting thing about this particular project is that instead of the normal municipal bond issue, citizens can purchase a "share" to help provide the initial build financing, as local residents are always against raising property tax for any projects, no matter how wise the project may be.

One share is $6,000. It will provide a lifetime credit against a large percentage of the buyers electric bill. If you move out of state, the credit will stay with the house, and may be factored into the sale price. If the buyer dies, it can be bequeathed to a local designated beneficiary.

There are similarities to shares of water rights. Many recent houses were built on farm land, and the water rights occasionally were worth more than the land.

A proposed local coal-electric plant was voted down, so as electricity prices rise and PV prices shrink, it is anticipated that the public will be interested in purcasing even more shares so the plant can be expanded.

An ORC (freon-steam) geothermal plant is under construction in nearby Minerville, and the local utility anticipates purchasing some of its evening capacity.

I am FOR the giant wind-gens, but many cities with them have as much as 50% of the wind capacity as a back-up generation plant.

For every 2-MW of wind-gen, there might be One-MW of methane-burning gas-turbines (jet-engine generators with co-generated steam from its exhaust) These can be spooled up quickly during a sudden low-wind condition.

[Reno]

http://www.friendsofbruce.ca/Photos,Maps,Etc/Toronto_Wind_Energy_Co-op_Windmill.html

This is what Toronto did with one turbine.

Unfortunately big business will never allow an idea like yours to happen. I have been on the receiving end of big business lobbying government and it cost me a bundle. If they do not have an advantage they will lobby to kill what they have to compete against, it's that simple.

[TheCasualTraveler]

     I like the idea. I have thought for a long time I would like to see developers create new style small towns. I was in Germany once and loved the way their towns were small, yet the buildings were 3 and 4 stories tall with separate families on each level. You could walk to the edge of town in a few minutes where there were farmers fields and a few miles down the road you could see the next little town. Everything linked with trains that ran on time and efficiently. Add to that a co-op for electricity and everything designed green style, small electric cars and gas and diesel cars banned. Windmills spinning in the fields and solar panels and collectors on the roofs... maybe someday. If such a community was being built today that's where I would love to live but most Americans still want their space and their SUV's to get around.

[jmk]

 I am all for it. How do we get it started?

[Jrmobb]

Sounds like a good idea to me. Ive never understood why new homes being build dont have the option to add solar panels to the roof and be added into the over all cost of the house. It would be a small monthly payment increase that would be saved by not paying an electric bill every month. It just seems so simple to me.

[windstuffnow]

As well as it would work and benifit the people there are two words why it can't happen... Big Business.  

They would fight you every inch of the way.  Every possible restriction, building permit and law in thier power.

[ghurd]

Maybe smaller scale?

Like 4~6 houses.  No problems with neighbors if they get 'something'. Big Business wouldn't notice.

Maybe a 17'.  Split the cost and labor.

One grid tie.  Split the net metering and cost.

Not as cost effective, but maybe doable.

Noise from an ugly windmill means someone else is benefiting.

Music from a beautiful instrument means you are benefiting.

G-

[bob golding]

hi ed,

we are trying to do something over this side of the pond (UK) though this organization.

 http://www.transitiontowns.org/

not sure if there are any groups your side of the pond. i am in the local energy group, we deal with long term issues like what happens when the oil runs out and " big business" has other things to worry about rather than  the competition from a small bunch of radicals like us. we are almost an island where i live so its a bit easier to work out the figures on power consumption. think  the  electrical power requirements at present levels of usage is around 25 megawatts.tourism is the main industry, but that might drop if there is no oil. not enough land for bio diesel at current consumption levels. so guess we will have to walk or cycle. which might be quite nice with no cars to kill you at every turn.-:)) oh wait a minute no point walking into town tesco/asda/walmart will be long gone by then. might even have to grow stuff to eat. now there's a radical idea if ever i heard one.

cheers

bob golding

[wdyasq]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/nov/09/miniature-nuclear-reactors-los-alamos

Backup power?

Ron

[GeeMac]

Get elected.

[tecker]

Choice is the real matter .Purchase problems can be overcome . Installation is easy. Maintenance and inter connects are just matter of code familiarization . Equipment to  grid connect won't mater at first but is a good idea .Also soon as folks have power to spare micro production of goods or services with tangible products (which is the real problem with economies anyhow )will make available diverse very rich product bases coming from inside these places witch eases traffic and makes town life rich as well .Pay back from the initial investment is a good bet .As supporters it seems we're working in the right direction by simplifying the whole process . Make a choice educate yourself and put it in slowly and correctly.  

[tecker]

One other point that is a function of modern life revolves around electricity as one of the basic needs .Once a person has meet that need a freeing  takes place and the mind moves on from that confinment. IE once youve mastered the art of providing power by your own means or have saved up credits with the power CO for winter lets say . You move on .

[zap]

"The reactors, only a few metres in diameter, will be delivered on the back of a lorry to be buried underground."

Great... so now we'll need to import lorries just to be able to deliver them here in the US???   :^ (tongue firmly placed against cheek!)

[windstuffnow]

  I'm not personally qualified to head a project like this nor do I have the ambition to do so.  I'm only presenting it as an overall solution to our growing demand for energy and as an option to reduce the need for fossil derived energies.

  I believe all energy is free, free to all of us and shouldn't be monopolized by big companies to enslave us into an endless stream of monthly payments to pad thier lush lifestyles.   We can do it without them.

  Unfortunately, even though the energy itself is free, there is a cost involved with the harnessing and conversion to make it useful to our needs.   But, this cost need only be paid for once with only mild costs for maintanenance and updates.   We're still enslaved by the dollar to purchase these products or materials to build them.  

   We have the technology to make our homes extreemly efficient and have had for many many years.   With the proper insulation we could heat and cool our homes with very little energy.  The products we buy need not be energy hogs as there is always a more efficient choice.

   As long as there is profit and greed the best technologies will be restricted.   Efficiency, Sustainablility and Abundance is their enemy.  If you want it you'll need to build it yourself... which is fun anyway.  

   It's basically up to us to bring in the new world and not blindly follow what the rich have in mind for us...

   Our economy is failing because of them, gold will double in price, the dollar will fall in value and our new president will announce the merging of continents.   They will announce the need for a new monitary system and tell us it is for our own benifit ( Amero ).  This will only serve to enslave us even further into debt.

   Our economy runs on energy, energy is more powerful than money, without it there is no money.   Is it really money that makes us more comfortable .. or is it the creation of new technologies?   Is it the rich people that are making decisions on how to take and spend our money, deciding what is best for us, or can we do a better job of deciding this for ourselves.

   We have the technology right now to completely remove the need for fossil fuels.  Sun, wind, solar, tidal and geothermal.  We don't need to wait for the elite to make these decisions for us, we can do it now.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Home/community-scale nuclear back-up power...Hmmmm, I think you may be onto something there, Ron...

EBAY posting #1894536288121:

Hyperion home reactor fuel in excellent condition, barely used. Serious bidders only, require full payment before shipping, Paypal only, shipping to terrorist watch countries will require additional fees...

Marty McFly: Are you telling me that this sucker is nuclear?

Doc Brown: No, no, no. This sucker's electrical. But I need a nuclear reaction to generate the 1.21 gigawatts of electricity I need.

Marty McFly: Doc, you don't just walk into a store and, and buy plutonium. Did you rip that off?

Doc Brown: Of course! From a group of Libyans. They wanted me to build them a bomb, so I took their plutonium and in turn, gave them a shiny bomb-casing full of used pinball machine parts...

http://www.nuclear.com/history/Nuclear_airplanes.html

nuclear-powered long-range bomber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_artillery

atomic tactical artillery

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=656

1957 Ford Nucleon atomic car

[tecker]

That's bs if one shuts down then another 25 mill who will be able to sevice one 1 mill there for service and who wants a nuke in the front yard . The problems are not mentioned in the artical . Even if they had a list no one really has the skills to analize the ramifications of nukes in a play ground .Or a large system of nukes.

[zap]

I think it's a great idea.  Let's face it, it wasn't long ago there were many small towns that had their own generating plant that was just for that town.  I know of one town in west Tennessee that, at least a few years ago, still had their generator plant even though it had been decades since it had run.

With something like this you'll always be fighting someone and big business may be the smaller battle.  For a town of just about any size you'll have the "Mrs. Crabtree's" who don't want the site located anywhere where they can see or hear it.  You'll probably run into a few individuals who invested heavily into 'energy stocks' and now enjoy an easy retirement or soon to be retirement because of the return on those investments.  How receptive will they be to losing some of their income stream?

How many will want to 'jump ship' and vote to bring the power company back in when they experience the first tiny little 'hiccup' in the system?

There's tons of hurdles.  How will you distribute the power?  The existing infrastructure cost a bundle to install and the power company most likely set it up to safeguard their investment.  Could the town revoke their right-of-way causing them to remove/relinquish their investment and if so, at what price?

How much of the town's income relies on franchise fee's and sales tax from 'energy'?

I think it's doable, you'll just need to cram it down the average person's throat and you need a 'P.T. Barnum' to do the cramming.  Most of what I read on this site comes from the type that doesn't care too much about what it looks like but more about how it performs.  Most here are willing to get by with a little less because they've been able to make it themselves.  This site doesn't need convincing.

Heck... how many of the "other half"s of those who post here would be hard to convince?

I've been involved with SIPs (Structural Insulated Panel) for about a decade now.  They're clearly a better way to build with short term paybacks in terms of energy.  Try selling it to the "average Joe".

You'll need a 'ram rod' and one person from this site who comes to mind, who's taken some of his ideas and successfully brought them to the public eye is Ben, aka "gotwind2".

What do you say Ben... you and Ed ready to start a revolution?

<rant>

I guess, those of us in the states need not worry any more for in a few months our new commander in chief will bring change and take care of all of us!

<end rant>

[zap]

LOL

I guess I should finally break down and register on eBay.  Although... once they're on eBay it won't be long before they show up on Craigslist.

____________________

Reply to: sale-695552204881772293911784937@craigslist.org [?]

Date: 2022-11-09, 9:13AM MST

FREE Hyperion Home Reactor (Southeast metro)

____________________

Was working fine until last night.  Maybe it just needs a new fuse? Probably an easy fix for a DIY type.  I can't find the USB cable for my camera, I will post pictures later tonight.

Pick up only or I'll deliver locally for a small fee.

    * Location: Southeast metro

    * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

[spinningmagnets]

I think it would be wonderful to start a pilot community, but it would take big up-front money and some political clout.

There are communities that are built around a small private airstrip so Cessna owners can live next to other small plane owners, and also be able to store their plane at their house, and then take-off from their back yard.

There are also boating communities like this around a lake. If the lakefront is not available, a man-made channel is dug thats connected to the lake, and homes are built with their backyards connected to the channel.

ScottsAI showed me a zero-energy home can be built for only 10% more if done from the ground up (instead of retrofit)

It would take wealthy early adopters and a developer (with political/zoning variance connections) that felt there was a market for this kind of thing. I can envision several home plans that inherently stay cool in the summer, and are maximised for winter solar capture and storage. All are outfitted with low-energy lights and TV's.

Then, find a big open site with good wind and solar thats reasonably close to a useful size of city (having at least grocery and hardware stores, etc)

I'd guess you'd need at least a dozen homes or more to justify the cost of an on-site technician. I'd give each home an external back-up battery (easy for technician to check).

If planned from the beginning, all the homes can be built with optimum solar orientation, and several large wind-gens could be placed at their optimum site.

Would tracking solar panels be better located by each homes battery pack?

Also, a community this size with expense-pooling and purchase/installation costs amortized over 50 years, it might be cost-effective to install a large Vanadium-Redox battery, and possibly even an ORC (freon-steam) geo-thermal unit...

[TheCasualTraveler]

     As I said before I like this idea and I don't think it that far fetched, in fact I don't see it as far fetched at all. With housing and construction in the state it is in now would be a great time to do it. Right now demand for housing is low and developers have lots of competition so a community like this would be just the thing to put you apart from the status quo.

     It's nothing out of the ordinary for a developer to secure hundreds of acres for a project. Water and sewage is often done on site with it's own treatment plant, why not electricity too? Add to that what we already know about highly energy efficient construction and make things like clotheslines mandatory and all but electric cars banned as well as  electric clothes dryers. And on and on...

     I wouldn't be surprised if this is already being done somewhere. In many different ways and to different degrees everyone on this site is part of it because for the most part we are all into this new way of doing things. And right here is where it all starts. Everybody, keep doing what your doing. We'll be there sooner than you think.

[Jeff]

I don't see it as far-fetched at all! In fact, I LOVE the idea of RAM-RODDING it down my own counties throats. IF/when I get disability, I do have a huge back-pay coming! Besides updating my system with only a couple$k, there's going to be at least 3, if not 4 large windmills on my property. I have the room, and local commerce building codes to allow 4 good 100ft. towers, with windmills to match. I also have 4 neighbors bordering my property that I've already discussed it with, and are willing to jump on it! My starting service plan is $500-600 up front, a certain percentage of their monthly use, for 1/4 of the price they pay the electric company, plus $20-25 per month maintainance or future upgrades. Adding higher output gennies on the windmills may be partly my cost, but come from their $20-25/month maintainace-upgrade fee. I offer to shoot for covering as high a percentage of their power as possible, but anything over the contracted monthly Kwh amount they will have to get from the electric co-op. I hope to be able to shoot for at least 75% of their highest monthly usage, but that's still a ways ahead. But, control is easily done with the investment of 4 meters, and since they are privately owned and NOT controlled by the electric company (other than the mandatory cut-off switch during power outage) of which I will only need the one for all 4, no problem. This could even be bypassed if the customer wished to install his own so they could still have power during an outage. Since all the property lines border each other, the electric company has nothing to say on that! Heck, I might even have enough to invest in a few large solar panels, and by that time, the price on those good lithium batteries should still be going down!

And I have dreams of affording a helper or two to help set up as many of the more needy people around here as possible! And I haven't even got started mentioning solar water heaters that use the same radiator & blower in the summer, but with two valves to switch over to use buried water tanks for cooling!

OH! Get me started, please!

[brokengun]

These are some pretty good ideas everyone is passing around here. It reminds me of the "Free State Project," in New Hampshire. http://freestateproject.org/ Granted, these guys are a bunch of libertarians who are trying to concentrate and make a difference for their beliefs and interests which may not be the same as yours. That's fine, but the idea is the same. Get people to congregate to a certain part of the country, and lead by example. Setup a small community that is on the outskirts of a city and is completely self powered, people will take notice.

A better example might be here: http://www.earthship.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=17

Buildings called "Earthships" that are made from recycled materials like tires, glass bottles and all sorts of stuff. They have a very good thermal mass and are mostly, if not entirely powered by renewables. These things seem to really be showing some promise. Watching the videos on their website, it seems as if they have even attracted people to them who weren't planning on living in that sort of community.

Either way, people need to start thinking differently about this stuff. An economic model that involves more than just one person becomes more feasible and just works better for everyone. A ground up approach seems to be the only way to fully take advantage of these things. As a young person, it's important for me to start looking now and paying attention to things like windpower. The predictions for payoff will occur in the middle of my lifetime. The earlier you put up a renewable energy system, the more you'll get out of it and the sooner it will pay off. It's a revolution in responsible thinking...

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

It's called a cooperative power company or power co-op.

Used to be a lot of 'em before the big grids.

Now there are good large-scale wind generators, vanadium redox storage batteries on a substation scale, several practical solar generation system designs, and the price/performance ratio of photovoltaic solar panels is starting to follow a Moore's Law like curve.  So there's no inherent reason a community shouldn't put one together - or a new development be designed with one as part of the original construction, to be operated by a homeowner's association.  With these developments grid-tie for a local power company is no longer necessary, or always a cost benefit.

The legal framework is already there.  You'll get major opposition from the incumbent power companies and their government cronies if you try to start one, especially if you do so in an area they already serve.  But you might be able to get it to happen.

[Jeff]

Hmmm, I have a 20ft. x 2" dia metal tubing I was going to use to raise my TV antenna some. Think that'll work for a good "Ram-Rod" to start with?