Author Topic: More Vawt Questions  (Read 9812 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

paulc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
More Vawt Questions
« on: July 12, 2005, 03:14:04 PM »
Hello Folks,


I also besides my drag machine would like to try something usinf an airfoil.

More specifically a NACA 0018 symmetrical foil.


Can someone please send me a file or point me toward a program that would allow me to print a scaled version of thie airfoil on my laser printer on 8.5 x 11 pper?


Thank you very much


Paul Cianciolo

W1VLF

« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 03:14:04 PM by (unknown) »

rotornuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
Re: More Vawt Questions
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2005, 11:25:55 AM »
Below is a 0018 that you can print from the screen by right clicking it. I also include a goe 217 and 435. You'll notice the goe profiles are thicker (19%-217,26%-435) and cambered which in my opinion should work better because they conform to the path the blade takes as it rotates and they're nice profiles for a low speed high lift application though certainly not the only choice for the job.













Just wanted to give you some ideas. When you use a profile with no camber on a vawt the lead and trailing edge are always dragging through the air changing the appearant wind angle on the lead side and increasing drag on the trailing side for no net benefit and more than likely a net loss.


Have fun and enjoy the fruits of your labour.


Mike

« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 11:25:55 AM by rotornuts »

rotornuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
Re: More Vawt Questions
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2005, 03:47:09 PM »
I also wanted to point out that if you round the underside of the leading edge on the 217 slightly (like from the 0.03ish position to the tip on both axis just to get rid of the little blemish there) both the goe profiles will produce good lift on both the top and bottom of the profile which is required for a good lift based Vawt.


Mike

« Last Edit: July 12, 2005, 03:47:09 PM by rotornuts »

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3121
  • Country: ca
Re: More Vawt Questions
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2005, 03:46:25 PM »
hope you fellows don't mind, i copied those profiles to my files. i am getting very interested interested in air foil shapes. ive just started to experiment with a gorlov type layout. roto ,do you have any thoughts/info, on  a suitable rotor profile for one of those?  at this stage i an hoping to use one with a constant radius on the inside
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 03:46:25 PM by electrondady1 »

rotornuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
Re: More Vawt Questions
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2005, 09:23:23 PM »
Electrondady, This is where I'd start knowing what I know these days. If you built a 2' diameter Gorlov and it could pull off a tsr of 2 in a 15 mph wind it would be doing around 420 rpm. So if you used a 6" blade (set of three) each blade would individauly see a reynolds number of between 70 000 to 210 000 depending on it's point during rotation. These are high end figures so it will likely be less then that in the areas where the blade is "effectively" producing lift across the front and back of the unit.


You need a profile that will produce good lift up to the highest AoA possible to utilize more of the rotation of the blade for producing power. You also need a blade that will work as well "upside down" as it does right side up, this is why we see symetrical profiles used on darrius machines. The next thing to do is to add camber to have the blades cord line conform to the circumference of the unit to because that is the path it is travelling not in a straight line but around a circle. Add it all up and you get something like what you see above less the 0018. Thick for better low Re's rounded lead edges for higher AoA's and cambered to better fly around a circle with a relatively symetrical offset from the cambered cord line.


When you decide to get fancy you can try lower drag airfoils like the S825 and the S814 and think abouit the fact that the blades see almost three times the wind speed at TSR - 2 in the 3 to 6 o'clock position as they do the 9 to 12 o'clock position.


Remember the Gorlov turbines you see on the net all seem to be for hydro applications so the blades will be thinner and shorter than you need for an "air" application due to the much higher reynolds numbers.


Mike

« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 09:23:23 PM by rotornuts »

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3121
  • Country: ca
Re: More Vawt Questions
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2005, 06:14:34 PM »
mike, thanks a bunch
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 06:14:34 PM by electrondady1 »

aogden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
VAWT Rotor materials
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2005, 12:15:56 AM »
I am not well versed in airfoils much less VAWTs so if a could get a few comments on the potential performance of using three aluminum copter NACA 8H12 airfoil for use in a 3'X 6' gorlov helical configuration it is most appreciated, Adrian

src="http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2397/NACA8H12.JPG" width=80%>
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 12:15:56 AM by aogden »

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3121
  • Country: ca
Re: VAWT Rotor materials
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2005, 05:27:46 AM »
hello aogden,did you follow the thread between hannu and myself about gorlov turbines? i can not speak to the tech. performance , perhapse rotonuts could help you. i'm just looking to get a little rpm boost on my savonas design and  retain direct drive on the generator. the gorlov  looks so good! i must be very carefull about turbine noise as geni location is closer to my neighbours house than to my own
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 05:27:46 AM by electrondady1 »

rotornuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 537
Re: VAWT Rotor materials
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2005, 01:34:13 PM »
There is unfortunatly little info available for Vawt's esspecially when it comes to selecting components and the tuning of airfoils for different operating conditions. In comparison to Hawt's the V's are practically ignored. While the performance of the Vawt's is hotly debated my little experiments lead me to believe that the indeed should be able to fair quite well.


I'd prefer to refrain from making too bold a statement about one idea or another or one design feature or another but I can't help but share my opinion on certain things. It's a process of informed trial and error. You get the best information you can, you speculate on how it fits in to what your trying to do and then you come up with an idea and incorporate it all into a working model.


It's so important though for folks to realize that knowledge is dynamic, what was accepted as the best practice yesterday may not be today. Does it mean that yesterday's practices were wrong? No, it just means that's the best they could do yesterday. There are alot of design considerations when building anything and carefully selecting one piece won't make the machine unless you carefully select them all.


Like I said before there is close to didly squat out there for info on Vawt's except pictures and testimonials from the builders. My advise to new builders is to have a look at what others have done, learn all you can about how the thing works (without an idea of how it works you likely will not have much success building one) come up with a design and build a scaled model first and be prepared to have to do it again. The other option is to as close as possible copy a commercial design that has been studied well such as the Sandia Savonius of the Darrieus or an H rotor or accept lower efficiency and build a drag bucket Savonius. Even if you do though you are still going to have to learn all you can about how each part fits in to the system.


You'll also have to realize that you need to be carefull not to pick a piece off one design then pick a piece off another and frankenstien it all together without first having a good idea what might happen as a result. Vawt's can take many more approaches to producing power than a Hawt so you need to understand that a design feature is likely very specific to the machine it was designed for an may not cross over well into a machine that has a slightly different way of working the wind. Changing the aspect ratio of the machine and nothing else isn't likely a good idea either without considering what may happen or what other pieces may need to be changed as a consiquence.


In all I say experiment, have fun with it and if you need a reliable power producing machine and don't have the time to research and experiment, build one of the tried and tested and very reliable designs such as the 55 gallon drum units.


I doubt anyone can say for sure exactly what effect a certain airfoil will have without trying it and testing it. Look at what's happening, how the machine works, what it needs to make it work well or better and don't forget it spins, sometimes faster than the wind sometimes slower. Airflow over the blades will reverse direction on the down wind side at some point depending on the design and the power producing portion of the unit will also shift according to rpm as the appearant wind direction changes.


Good luck


Mike

« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 01:34:13 PM by rotornuts »