Author Topic: Well, diving in with both feet. (Read 3049 times)

nanotech · « **on:** April 23, 2006, 02:24:53 AM »

Here goes, folks. I just ordered a spool of 30ga magnet wire and 14 half inch X quarter inch disc magnets for my ceiling fan genny.

I just need to ask, how many turns do you all think I should put in each of the 14 coils? And should I wire them opposite each other and place the magnets alternating as well? That was what I was thinking. Set it all up in parallel so that each of the coils will add its current to all the others.

For those that don't remember, I took apart an old ceiling fan. It had 14 outer and 14 inner coils. Well, I took the wire off and am looking into how to drill out the laminate rotor so that I can sink the magnets into it. Will this work or am I thinking wrong? Steel backing/surrounding for the magnets to channel the flux? Or am I going the wrong route? With the steel backing, will I need to run it with all the magnets facing the same way now?

I just realised with all my questions maybe I'm digging in a little too deep....

But I'm going to give it a try anyways.

Maybe I'll just try it all different ways until something works!! LOL

nanotech · « **Reply #1 on:** April 22, 2006, 08:59:41 PM »

Just realised I forgot a couple very important details in my previous post.....

I am looking to produce about 2VDC. No, that is not a typo. Two volts direct current.

I will be using the stock blades from the 42" ceiling fan.

nanotech · « **Reply #2 on:** April 22, 2006, 09:02:55 PM »

Also just thought of something else.

If the 30ga wire won't handle the current produced at 2VDC, I could always wire it basically in two phases of 2V each in series. And wire the solar driveway lights I will be charging with this thing in series as well to 3VDC, in which I would be pushing for 4VDC out of the genny

This is to cover wire loss for the 200 feet distance from the genny to the lights......

hiker · « **Reply #3 on:** April 22, 2006, 10:30:19 PM »

hmmm--if you only need 2volts toss in some #16 wire[or what ever fits past the gap between coils]--use as many turns of wire that fits..

at least you would get some amps out of it...

you could even use some plastic insulated wire if you don"t have the mag wire..

use what you have ..2 volts no sweat--might as well get some power from it..your

#30 wire is really light for any real power..i supose you could go four in hand if

you want to use that wire...heres a shot of one i did a long while back..[hadrive mag powered]..i later rewired with some heavy plastic coated wire and ran it off a small engine[20+ amps]..i did"nt bother with the inside coils.--well good luck on your alt..

ghurd · « **Reply #4 on:** April 22, 2006, 11:32:06 PM »

I may be looking at this different, I usually do.

It seems to me you are in a boat going the other way than most people.

Most guys get a VAC and expect it to go up for VDC. But this is going to need 2.5VAC, rectify to VDC, get 2VDC. Or 4VAC=~4VDC.

Hiker is getting 240W out of his (240? can't remember now), but at 2 or 3V that's a lot of amps. Like fork lift battery amps.

What size battery is what I would be concerned about.

Next thought is the controller.

It may work out better using the factory wire, high volts but with the high resistance to limit the amps?

How many of these lights do you have?

Seems like it might be a lot easier to change lights and voltages. A decent stepper motor can make around an amp at 2~3V.

G-

nanotech · « **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2006, 12:50:42 AM »

Well, I could always go with 12V and use it charge my Coleman Jumpstart pack off of.

I was thinking this thing wasn't going to produce that much power, so I was only looking to charge the NiMH AA battery that was in each of eight solar lights. So a max of 9.6V @ 2300 mAh (in series) or 1.2V @ 18.4Ah (in parallel) if it is capable of making that much. Of course, it wouldn't need to produce that much every hour all the time. There's still the installed solar cells in the lights. This windmill was only supposed to supplement the solar (which is pretty dismal in northern Minnesota most of the year).

I realise that 30ga wire isn't capable of 18 amps, but with 14 coils all hooked in parallel wouldn't it?

Geez, I was thinking this thing wouldn't even get close to 30W total in a hurricane!!!

As for using the stock wiring, too late. It's already torn out, both the inner and outer coils.

I'll get some pictures of what I have to work with tomorrow when it's light so you can see what I'm trying to do. Or maybe I could bring it inside right now (wife's gone to bed) and get pictures now......

BRB

ghurd · « **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:15:24 AM »

Not sure (it's late) how to wire them in series with different loads.

Paralel seems pretty easy this late.

The 2300 mAh is more than most I see that are ~700.

Maybe just wind a test coil of 10 turns and see what it does.

My Vector Jumpstart / tire compressor is VW solar panel powered.

Fancy.

PV in the window, plug in jack. Shortest instructions ever? No.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

nanotech · « **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:37:44 AM »

That's the complete setup ready to fly (actually, it's flown already to test it).

That's the front outer facing off. Right now it's still rigged as a two bladed system. A friend at work still has my tap and die set, so I haven't been able to drill it out for three blade operation. I have the third blade out in the shop....

Here you can see what I'm going to mount the magnets in on the right. It's a laminated ring right now. I'm going to drill 14 recessed holes in it from the inside 1/4 inch deep and drop the magnets in them.

Here's a better picture of the magnet ring.

That's a pic of the rear cover of the rotor with the laminate stator.

And that's a picture of the laminate stator on its own with the bearings.

And yes, those are the original blades. They are completely flat, so no airfoil at all. They are completely drag style. So I'm thinking there won't be much in the way of wattage captured from the wind to begin with!!

nanotech · « **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:43:27 AM »

Yeah, the batteries they came with were only 600mAh NiCD's that only lasted one season and then wouldn't take a charge after that.

The K-Mart that my wife works at had these Duracell NiMH AA's on sale for a rediculously low price (plus her employee discount), so I dropped them in.

They've worked fairly well so far, but the solar cells just don't produce enough power to make up for what the LED's use during the night.

nanotech · « **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:44:59 AM »

Forgot to put that the solar cells didn't keep up with even the 600mAh batteries in either.

If I took the batteries out during the day and charged them up, they lasted through the night no problem.

But then they died over the winter, so I replaced them.......

electrondady1 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 23, 2006, 06:27:04 AM »

everything ive read on this board indicates that submerging mags into an iron surface results in a loss of flux. also i don't know what kind of shop you have but wouldn't drilling holes at 90 deg. into the inside surface be kinda difficult? why not just grind /file 14 flats on the ring 1/4" deep?

nothing to lose · « **Reply #11 on:** April 23, 2006, 07:54:08 AM »

Looks like a fan I took apart also. I did not make a genny from mine though.

Make sure you seal the blades good. I left some lay in the yard and they came apart pretty fast. Just little thin layers of wood not much more than paper thick is what I was left with. I did not want the blades though, that's why mine were in the yard.

Nando · « **Reply #12 on:** April 23, 2006, 09:31:30 AM »

Nanotech:

Your idea of 2 volts is not practical for many aspects, one is the rectifiers, if Schottky, will have a drop around 0.45 volts, and if Silicon, around 0.7 Volts.

So you want to loss around 45 to 70 % of the energy in the diodes and I am not adding line losses

The LEDs, WHITE type run from 1.8 to 2.4 volts depending who is making them with different technologies, some are Ultraviolet diodes with Phosphor to produce white light, the equivalent of the fluorescent lights conversion scheme.

The LED diodes are NOT voltage devices ARE CURRENT devices, so they will need a higher voltage source with a current regulator ( the simplest one is a RESISTOR) , which indicates that you need a higher voltage.

If not a resistor because the voltage is low, then you need a boosting voltage circuit with defined current capability feeding each LED.

The solution for Ceiling FAN generator wind mill, is not a low voltage -- you are starting with a very low power system -- but with a higher voltage capable of charging some battery like 12 or higher Volts.

The external rotor of the ceiling fan is thin and difficult to make thinner, unless you have a good lathe or a milling machine and just enough to clear the room for the magnets.

So 30 Gauge wire is going to be out of the question for your project, have you determined the current capabilities of the wire ?.

I stop here, not more "additions" to your project, though there are more, listen to the group and be logical about it.

Nando

nanotech · « **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2006, 12:53:39 PM »

You, sir, are a GENIUS!! I would have NEVER thought of doing that!! LOL

Seriously, thank you for that idea. That's going to take A LOT of work out of what I need to do to that ring.

As for the bit about sinking the magnets into the metal, I was trying to copy the idea that someone (sorry, can't remember who) did with sinking thier magnets into an aluminum rotor on a motor conversion. I think I just saw the problem with my thinnking - the motor conversion I am referring to was done with aluminum, i'm using steel lamintes here.....

The big worry I have is that the coils are going to be wrapped around laminates as well. Will this help channel the flux through the coils? Or is it going to channel it AWAY from them and make the machine cog like a madman?

nanotech · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:10:10 PM »

Nando, I'm not sure where you were going with your post.

These are little solar powered driveway lights that have an amber LED in them. They are powered (originaly) by a AA size NiCD battery. I was going to hook directly into the battery casing with my mill to charge the battery.

I'm not looking to go any more fancy than that. Hence the 2V level I wanted. The batteries are 1.2V nominal output, so I figured 1.3V to charge them, and the .7V rectifier loss.

As I said in a previous post, I could hook all the lights in series and have a tapped 9.6V requirement, which would mean I would need 11.1V coming out of the genny. I could easily round that to 12V. I would rather not go that way due to each battery in the system having its own solar cell also charging the battery, in which case wouldn't the system only take a charge to the highest battery, or would it continue to try charging to the lowest battery damaging the higher charged ones?

I'm planning on doing a lot of experimenting with this as I will have LOTS of wire to play with, and I'm not going to permenantly mount the magnets as centrifugal force will hold them stronger as the mill speeds up. So if I wire it up for 2V and it doesn't work, I'll take it all apart and try it in the 12V configuration. If this mill won't work for charging my solar lights, I'll just wire it for 12V and use it to keep my Coleman Jumpstart pack at full charge. Or I'll go get a marine battery from my wife's work and use it to power my security lights on the garage through my 600W inverter. There's all sorts of things I could use this for at this point.

Hell, it's just a big play toy at this point. I know I'm not going to get much useable power out of it, and I know it's not a permenant mill due to the cheap blades etc, so I'm just doing this for fun. I won two of those $20 things from Pepsi Free Ride which I put directly into buying the magnets and wire, so I'm literally out zero cash at this point.

This is all for fun, so if anyone has any wacky ideas as to what to try with this, bring 'em on, because I'm willing to try anything with this thing!! LOL

nanotech · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2006, 06:48:22 PM »

Well, for your viewing pleasure, I took a few videos of my (non-powering) mill for you.

Not that exciting, but hey....

http://www.boomspeed.com/bofh1968/windstuff/vid1.avi

http://www.boomspeed.com/bofh1968/windstuff/vid2.avi

http://www.boomspeed.com/bofh1968/windstuff/vid3.avi

nanotech · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2006, 06:52:52 PM »

And yes, I noticed that I have some balancing issues with it. It would seem that the last time I laid the mill down, my son set something on top of it and warped one of the blades a bit.

Oh, well. I need to take it back down as soon as the magnets and wire come through anyways. I'll balance the blades and the rotor then. So long as it doesn't fall apart before I get it down!! LOL

nothing to lose · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2006, 10:22:57 PM »

Probably Zubbly you are thinking of. I think he has a great post on here about a 5HP motor conversion (Baldor ?) where he made an aluminum cage and embedded 1/2" X 3/8" magnets, maybe 64, to make the poles and also skewed a bit perhaps to reduce cogging, maybe 10%.

Probably others used aluminum cages also.

"The big worry I have is that the coils are going to be wrapped around laminates as well. Will this help channel the flux through the coils? Or is it going to channel it AWAY from them and make the machine cog like a madman?"

Should channel the flux through the coils and also cog I think. Don't have a geuss how bad cogging might be, maybe alot or maybe a little, but there should be some.

veewee77 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2006, 10:39:07 PM »

Actually, if you take that battery that is in the yard light (that looks like a AA) you will likely find two or more "cells" wired in series inside of that that are 1.2V each for a total of 2.4V or higher.

Check it again and see. . .

Many of these use several cells wired together and put into heat-shrink tubing making them look like a single battery when they really aren't.

Doug

nanotech · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2006, 12:17:07 AM »

Just double checked on this. Below is a picture (albeit VERY out of focus. Sorry, cheap camera) of one of the (now dead) batteries from the lights.

In the picture you can JUST barely make out that it says 1.2V 600mAh in the black area.

ghurd · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:08:21 AM »

I think he is saying you may do better to rip out the guts, wire all 8 lights in series, rig one set of the old guts to control all 8 lights, and run them from something like 12V.

Its still a minute amount of power. In series 24 hours a day only needs 0.36AH, 10 hours a night only needs 0.15AH. The new batteries and a fairly average stepper motor should cover the 10 hours a night.

Curious to know what brand of white LED has a Vf of 1.8V. Most are listed typical Vf of 3.6V, and will not conduct at all below 2.85V.

Slingshot · « **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:45:32 AM »

Electrondady is correct, if you sink the magnets into steel you will diminish the flux you get through the coils.

Think of the magnets as a battery, and the steel laminates as conductors that can short the battery out. The further you let the steel come up the side of the magnets, the more "shorting out" you will do.

This effect would not have occured in the case you mentioned of sinking magnets into aluminum, because aluminum is not a "conductor" for this "battery".

nanotech · « **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2006, 10:53:53 AM »

They're amber, not white.

News:

Author Topic: Well, diving in with both feet. (Read 3049 times)