A Different VAWT design

[electrondady1]

oh god,

it's the  hawt vs. vawt comparison again.

as relevant to this conversation as comparing

woman's breast size or the dimensions of a mans penis.

it is a given that a hawt is more efficient configuration

 and will produce "a bigger bang for the buck"

no one is disputing that.

 (well, perhaps windstuff ed)

is it impossible for someone interested in vawts

to be considered a reasonable individual?

that they are not deluded  or dishonest?

i have no axe to grind ,

 i just like the way they look.

[fcfcfc]

Hi: In short the max TSR at no load is allot like the max stag temp of a thermal unit or the OC voltage of a given PV. Its not meant to substitute for loaded testing but it can often point the way towards designs that will yield better loaded results...

[TomW]

edaddy;

is it impossible for someone interested in vawts

to be considered a reasonable individual?

that they are not deluded  or dishonest?

I think that statement can be turned around, too. Mostly due to waiting for one to be installed, proven and documented over time [successfully].

Just because someone lacks the faith of the zealots must they be deemed evil and be denied the right to honest dissent? Their rights end where mine start, you know.

But, then religions seldom involve fact.

Not our fault Doc Bob came in and stirred the pot with this "breakthrough" complete with[apparently] undocumented wild claims involving a value of 300% increase. All this on his first story post. Its somewhat unreasonable for us to just buy into information from a user with absolutely no credibility earned on the board, don't you think?

Considering all it takes is an email address and an internet connection to join and post immediately, I have a healthy skepticism of wild claims from new users posting a day after they join. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Its that simple. Especially since he makes some completely inaccurate comparisons between air and water.

Fact is, I truly hope one of these proponents pulls off a good unit but until we see it we reserve the right to skeptical and critical dissection. Just how it is.

Cheers.

TomW

[dinges]

Electrondady, my post was mostly meant as a response to your post #31, where you stated:

"that's the very reason i like them ! (non threatening in an urban setting)"

That remark is what triggered my response with the comparison in the image. A tiny VAWT sure is non-threatening. Just as a similar-size HAWT is non-threatening (I guesstimate a .7 m diameter HAWT to be the equivalent of Dr. Robert's VAWT).

Now, build a VAWT with the same generating capacity of, say, Dan's 10-14-17-20 footers, and I doubt that same neighbourhood would find those VAWTs 'non-threatening'. That's what the image showed, the relative dimensions of VAWTs to a HAWT. Comparing apples to apples, as opposed to comparing apples to oranges. Similar size (kW) HAWT to a similar size VAWT. In fact, given the choice, I'm pretty sure what my neighbours (and I) would chose when faced between choosing a massive Savonius or that slender HAWT.

So, as a response to your 'non threatening' remark, I consider my reply with the image very relevant. I will not enter into a discussion w.r.t. the things you've accused me of in post #33 as it will carry the thread off-topic. Just let it be known that I -hate- it when people attribute things to me I did not say (deluded, irrational, dishonest, axe to grind). Those are your words, not mine.

Regards,

Drs. ing. Peter.

[electrondady1]

i apologize.

[fcfcfc]

Hi Peter: I think I have seen those images posted before. And I am sure the numbers are right. The only thing I would say in comparing the HAWT shown VS the Sav. shown is that by building the Sav out rather than up you increase the weight more per equal increase in wind sweep area. What I mean is that if they had built one 4 times higher than wider rather than going for the "squat" design, it could have been built far lighter for the same structural "toughness", obtained higher RPM and averaged the same torque output with an increase in Avg efficiency. With a drag type VAWT wider is not better because you sacrifice RPM at a given wind speed where as with a HAWT you don't, at least not in the same way, simply because with a HAWT the blades are never moving away from the wind but always perp to it.

[Dr Robert]

I appreciate your ideas.  I do want to get into the water stream at some future time, but right now air is in.....

I am wondering whether a more of a French curve ( start the curve gradually, then tighten as the air reaches  90 degrees)  might work better for air than just a simple 90 degree turn. I want to try this at some point when I get more instrumentation on the VAWT.  What do you think?

[Dr Robert]

Sounds like have step on a filled behive.  

I am simply reporting what has happened here so far.  I apologize to the true scientists among you for not having precise data;  I will have it soon; but at this point I am only able to give you "appearances" which I also find a bit difficult to quantify as well.

Thanks to one and all for your interest. Especially my wife who is normally the "wet rag" in the pack, but has given me the financial go ahead to continue experimenting on this VAWT.

Robert

[spinningmagnets]

I am not allowed to have a wind-gen where I live, but I hope to have one when I retire.

Until somebody figures out a cheap and easy way to incorporate "variable pitch" onto the popular 3-blade PMA-HAWT, I can't imagine any way to improve it. If I ever do build one, I will exactly copy an existing proven design.

So,...I have nothing to play with for a few years, and I want to join the fun. I have read about VAWTs being used to run a 55-gal drum that agitated with an old bicycle pedal crank. It was used to wash army clothes on Pacific islands in WWII.

I have a pic of a three-drum Savonius that pumps irrigation water in a remote region. central pipe shaft, auto wheel bearing at bottom, top of shaft braced.

I can see making something similar to this new VAWT on my roof (visually unobtrusive to wife and neighbors) spinning a shaft through the roof which runs a fan that evacuates my attic. A while back I put in a thermostat-controlled 120-VAC fan in my attic. It cooled the attic enough with ambient air that my A/C cycled about half as much, saving much money (or battery Watts if I was RE).

There has to more ways we can think of to use a medium torque/low RPM shaft, that you made from free junk.

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." - Ken Olson, President, Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977

[binarycortex]

There is a public company that is using this design but is using french curves, check out this link. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Gual_Industrie_StatoEolien_Vertical-Axis_Wind_Turbine

[Shell]

Robert,

Very nice design using some wonderfully innovative thinking.

I noticed you're up in the Conifer area? I'm down the road from you in Pine Junction. I'm setting up a company down the road from me in a 1,600 sq ft shop calling it Solar Wind Systems. I'm just now filling it up with lathes, mills and workshop tools. Maybe we could chat sometime to exchange some ideas?

I too have a new VAWT design I want to finish and maybe get to market. It came to me a few years ago when I was designing some underwater powered equipment for Anti Submarine Warfare systems (ASW). I ended up with a entirely different blade system because the fluid dynamics of air and water are so different. It was one I never used but according to the numbers it should work quite well taking a little of each of the VAWT and HAWT operational characteristics. I like to say it will blow and suck quite well. ;-)

I'm new to this board but in just flashing through the emails it seems to be a wealth of knowledge and brilliant thinkers. I'm impressed. Good to be on board and I hope you don't mind an old engineering grandmother of 9 here...

My best,

Shell

[TheEquineFencer]

I see this is an old post but I figured I'd see if it still has some interest. If the top were open and you placed an airfoil like a wing at say a 30-45 degree angle at the top edge, would it increase the airspeed over the top pulling the air from the center causing it to turn faster? If this were installed with a tail so it rotated it into the wind it might increase the flow. It might make it "suck" the air out of it. Just a thought.

[solarwind]

I am interested in wind power here in South Texas. The wind is a constant here but the city codes are out of touch with reality. The code here represents the bladed wind turbine everyone knows about with a tower not to exceed 110ft. on at least a 1 1/2 acre tract of land. I proposed the wind turbine much like the one I see here instead with a ten foot pole which would be in my back yard due to the constant wind year round running through my yard. No one would see it because my house is taller and it would be a great addition  with solar panels. They said "NOPE" and told me that they were redoing the code and lowering the acre size but most people here have only a 1/4 with house. I certainly don't believe they will lower it that much. They told me if the tower of 110feet was to fall there needed to be enough room for it to fall without hitting another house...hence the acreage. Mine would fall in my own yard but speaking English here with the city gets you nowhere.It seems the people who wrote up the code know very little about wind power.

I will wait and see what the new code will be. They took the wind out of my sails before I could get up and running!LOL Anyone here have simular problems?

I like the squirrel cage idea because of birds, bats,etc. seeing it as a solid object and the outer doesn't move but create a path for the wind to run threw and push against the inner cage and force it to spin at a fast rate. If the top was open like the one the french curve over seas has would it spin faster? Aluminum blades with solid wheels of steel or heavy alloy(in place of bicycle wheels)for weight when the blades spin would get a generator going (stator)like bladed wind turbines. Rare earth magnets and coils at the top or bottom of of the center would produce some useful power I bet.