Author Topic: Looking for partners to build 5kw alternators (Read 8501 times)

xymox · « **on:** February 07, 2009, 09:47:34 PM »

Hi all, It seems as if there are no USA made low rpm high torque alternator manufacturing facilites around where the average joe like myself can purchase alternators such as those for sale from ginlong.

see http://www.ginlong.com/wind-turbine-pmg-pma-permanent-magnet-generator-alternator-GL-PMG-5k.htm for an example of what Im looking for. These retail from them for 2200 USD and cost more to ship over to the US.

Im specifically interested in 5 KW units as they seem to be the highest in demand and could potentially allow for the average home owner with 1 acre of land to generate enough electricity to remain a neutral customer on the local grid.

So, Im looking for suggestions on how to make this happen, Im very ambitious and have some money to throw around. ~ 50K. I'm looking for a way, initially to manufacture one of these per day or on an as need basis using average machine shop tools and not really interested in a factory setting at this point I think a price point of 2000 dollars for one of these units is economical and enough to generate a small profit at first which will eventually fund a bigger production scale environment, where the price could drop down even furthur with high volume.

My goal is to aquire a 5kw alternator for use in a wind turbine, but the business man in me sees a real need for this kind of thing made available to everyone as in doing so we could really be doing our part for the world to get us off of oil.

All the best.

Aaron

aaronandnicole@gmail.com

vawtman · « **Reply #1 on:** February 07, 2009, 03:05:11 PM »

Hi

I have a manufacturing facility in my basement.It's fun if your amnbitious has you state.Not many are anymore.

Maybe you could add this to the so called Stimulus thingy.Have the gov(taxpayers) build them for you.Who would build the turbine?

Just venting Aaron and good luck.

xymox · « **Reply #2 on:** February 07, 2009, 05:07:38 PM »

Thanks,

Question, what would it take for you to make something similar to the ginlong product?

TomW · « **Reply #3 on:** February 07, 2009, 05:41:47 PM »

xy;

I think you totally missed his point.

This is a Do It Yourself Board so we [spelled most] do our own.

Some here are perfectly capable of the task but being a hobby it could ruin it if they went all corporate.

The brainpower and skills exist on this forum for certain.

Commercial endeavors kind of run crosswise to the grain for some.

Good luck with it, you have an uphill battle unless you possess some skills beyond seeing a need. Perhaps you bring more than the awareness of a "need".

Tom

xymox · « **Reply #4 on:** February 07, 2009, 06:22:09 PM »

Totally understand your point, however the mishmash of collective ideas and designs does not seem to be the most efficient process. I think it would be great to have a buy-it-now option for a decent sized alternator out there. I do not see any drawbacks to this line of thinking at least.

Regards.

dbcollen · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2009, 06:50:28 PM »

There is a "Buy it now" option, as you stated you can get it from Ginlong. If you think you can compete with almost free chinese labor and cheap raw materials and the non recognition of patents like the chinese, and produce them on basically prototype basis and still get in the $2k pricepoint I would be very surprised.

Dustin

xymox · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2009, 07:49:26 PM »

Im interested in not sending money to the chinese only to have to deal with customs and shipping and all the crap that would probably push the price up another 35% by the time it gets to your door.

I guess I'm sick of having to request a quote from every producer out on global spec. This has to be easier than what it is currently. Agreed?

I would rather this not turn into a discussion about the merits of buying from whom and from where, as that is almost limitless and will eventually digress until someone is squabbeling about there being some poiitcal inequality about chinese manufacturing and someone gets offended.

This might be the best place on earth to collaborate and brainstorm regarding the issue at hand so I look forward to everybody's suggestion that will allow me to "get er done" the american way.

Regards.

jonas302 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2009, 09:36:53 PM »

I can't help it seems like a good idea a lot of people can't build there own it is nice you are tring to build them in the usa instead of just ordering a container and reselling

Best of luck on your endeavors

bob g · « **Reply #8 on:** February 07, 2009, 11:03:17 PM »

fwiw,, and remember your mileage may vary

a 5kwatt alternator would need to operate in the 200rpm range to be

effective, and have a 10 minute rating of 7.5kwatt without burning out to be

classified as a true 5kwatt,, in my opinion.

it is going to be very large in diameter, something on the order of 24 inches

air core or laminate iron core? that is the question

if it were me, i would pull back my horns a bit and go for a very good 500 watt alternator one that can take 750watts for 10 minutes without burnout.

and do it in the 300-350rpm range.

are you able to build a prototype?

with a prototype maybe you get some partners that can be subcontractors to make up

the necessary parts? maybe a foundry guy to do the castings, maybe a guy that works with silicon steel laminates that can get the stator laminations punched should you go with iron core.

the biggest issue i see with this noble project is getting a group of like minded and capable folks to agree on a design and see it through.

from my experience, i don't see that happening working with diy'er types, not that they are incapable (because there are very capable guys and gals) but because they all have differing idea's on how things should be done,, that is a huge hurdle to overcome.

once you get past that one, then you have to get all the component parts manufactured, and then someone has to assemble and test the units,, the first of which will need to go through exhaustive tests, tests that will end in destruction, tests to find weak points on and on.

seriously you might be better off just getting the ginlong alternator, taking it apart and working with the manufacture to incorporate improvments to fit you needs.

reinventing the wheel will likely eat your 50k in a very short time.

then there is liability issues, insurance issues, warrantee and product support issues and the list goes on.

as i said it is a noble project and something you would have to be very passionate about to see it through to fruition.

Even then you have no guarantee of enough sales to cover your R&D, get a return on investment, cover your overhead, pay the insurance, and everything else ,, before you turn a profit.

when it is all said and done, my bet is you can't produce and sell a 5kwatt alternator as described for anywhere near what the chinese get for their offerings.

probably end up costing twice the price.

interesting proposal, i wish you luck

bob g

halfcrazy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2009, 05:03:22 AM »

Aaron i wish you luck and i think this is a market that could be filled i would love to have a dependable 5kw factory alternator that i could rectify to dc and run threw a controller. this would fill a large hole that my offgrid customers have they hate running the ac gennys threw the inverter.

farmerfrank · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2009, 07:52:28 AM »

What kind of voltage would you want to produce? I would imagine anything over 25 volt would quickly eat up 50g in getting the proper ULC/CSA certification and testing. Without that it would be unsalible I would think.

I am sure there would be a demand but the rules and regs are prohibitive.

electrondady1 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2009, 07:54:32 AM »

aluminum and steel are probably about the same where ever you go

but neo mags are for the most part a product of china

i believe they are the source of the raw materials.

and already have a large industry in place

so you must purchase from them on one level or another.

so here's a thought ,

find a substitute for neo mags.

xymox · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2009, 08:06:37 AM »

I appreciate everyones feedback. I refuse to let the chinese be the ones to capitalize on the market. I tried getting an internal schematic from ginlong but no such luck. I'm pretty sure they are made using standard design principles and there is no dark arts from our foreign competitors going on inside that thing.

I have inquired from them on what it would take i.e how many I would need to buy to get the price down to the 1500 mark. I will post the results when I get them. as is its 2200 plus 150 for freight only into the US. NOt sure of the additional expense after that.

The ginlong unit appears to be a little less than 14 inches in diameter <380 milimeters anyways. 24 inches sounds a little absurd.

Been doing some reading and seems there is quite a few folks who are good at the PM conversions. Theres lots of 15 HP 3 phase induction motors floating around for less than 700 bucks new in the box. Teardown, rewind, and add mags to the rotor and voila! Of course its not that easy but if there is a good combination that someone is aware of, such as take a rotor from this unit and add to the stator and casing of this unit. Of course the rotor would ideally need to be smaller to the degree that added mags can fit into the casing with no lathe work and minimal airgap!

Alas I dream! But it keeps me out of trouble.

bob g · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2009, 08:49:03 AM »

nothing wrong with dreaming, but a reality check sometimes is both helpful

and motivational.

when you first posted it sounded to me that you wanted to do a "clean sheet" design

so i figured if you were going to do so, why limit yourself, so that is why i mentioned 24" diameter (that includes the case, so the internal diameter is much smaller).

now lets take a look at the 700 dollar motor conversion,

buy it new in the box $700.00
have the stator rewound $500.00
machine rotor for mags $300.00
neo magnets $300.00

as we can see your getting painfully close to 2k bucks.

i think conversions will continue to be attractive to the guy that can machine the rotor himself, has a surplus/used motor, and modifies the oem windings to fit his needs,, but likely never be commercially viable as a product.

go back to your clean sheet approach, i like that much better.

that way you can eliminate a bunch of compromises.

btw, the ginlong machine are just 3 phase alternators aren't they, i have seen the internal pictures of their alternators and they look pretty typical to me.

good luck

bob g

ghurd · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2009, 09:13:31 AM »

A 5KW is a major project for anyone, even with a "store bought" PMA. I will repeat what Bob G said, maybe start with an honest 500W or 750W.

The Ginlong looks more like a motor. Might try motor manufacturers.

The US made 1HP GE ECMs can make >400W with simple wiring modifications. Maybe the newer ones are not US made? If the factory would wire them different, maybe a couple other minor changes, that would be a simple solution. They make custom motors, but I doubt 50K will get more than a chuckle from the dept that handles a request like that.

G-

xymox · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2009, 09:51:47 AM »

Well Ive done the dual axial flux design and I like it but Im not sold on its relaibility.

Maybe I need to find some good high carbon steel metal sheet and use a high pressure punch do design the laminates. A fellow suggested the inside out alternator aproach. Mags attached to the outer perimeter hub, I like that but it gets real wide real fast getting up in the 5kw range. I'd rather keep the dimentions to a smaller profile.

Damn you GINLONG! Damn you all to HELL.

p.s. dont thake this berating of ginlong as discouragement, only motivation.

Let beat the chinese at their own game. They've been ripping us off for so song, its high time they got a handfull of their own buckshot.

So again like I said, If there is a particular combination of rotor and casing/stator that will work, much like GL's set up Id be all for exploring that. That way I can , for the most part, rely on the proven manufacturing technique thats already in place and bastardize it as I see fit. If that will not work or is not feasable, I need creative ideas on commonly available materials that will aid in the manufacture of a clean-slate design.

OK, I'm off to the library to kill some time and fuel my desire.

Regards.

xymox · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2009, 09:55:12 AM »

You might consider it fool hardy to issue the following statement but I am not concerned with UL certification at this point (design phase). I've never cared much for rules and regulations. I like safety, dont misunderstand but it strikes me as obvious that most of you are inherent risk-takers. My kind of crowd...

Todd a · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2009, 10:23:56 AM »

I have seem several 3kw generators made for Hugh Piggot 17' turbines... like this:

http://otherpower.com/new17page1.shtml

Now I assume you could make a slightly bigger version of this. Another option though would be to stack these back to back on a single shaft and set of bearings. As for a production version... well I have looked into the idea as I see this as something in huge demand for DIY. A few basic generators and a matching basic electronics box (fuses, bridge rectifiers, meters, break...). The only problem is you typically have to use similar design ideas. Otherwise you are looking at massive sosts for machining and welding, or a huge up front cost for tooling. Even then the DIY type generators a very labor intensive, but if batch built, you might be able to massively cut down the labor. You do need to make it durable and prefferably sealed and nice looking.

The only problem is going to be competing with cheaper generators from China:

http://www.sentex.ca/~sxing/generator/generator.htm

xymox · « **Reply #18 on:** February 08, 2009, 06:29:41 PM »

Heres a 7KW that is sitting on someones tile floor. from china.

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/szunitemotor/product-detailmMCQneSHggVI/China-7kw-Windmill-Tur
bine.html

xymox · « **Reply #19 on:** February 08, 2009, 06:30:52 PM »

and a 5KW

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/szunitemotor/product-detailoMgmKbHVbGWL/China-5KW-Windmill-Gen
erator.html

at 130 rpms too!

kamikaze · « **Reply #20 on:** February 08, 2009, 10:11:43 PM »

Gidday,

I have purchased a few 600w afpm generators from Seoyoung Tech Co Ltd, of Seoul Korea. They specialise in purpose built generators for wind turbines, etc, and will also custom build generators to your specs for little more than their stock prices.

Their website is www.evsmotor.co.kr/eng/product/product_list1.php .

I have been really impressed with the quality and durability of their gennys, but they are quite pricey. Why not do what the Chinese do, and buy one, pull it apart, and make one similar. Save a lot of trial and error.

ps. I think you have a great idea. You may want to include other sizes as well.

Cheers,

Jon

xymox · « **Reply #21 on:** February 09, 2009, 05:56:10 AM »

Heres a response I got back from them.

USD1500/pc for 5kw220VAC 130rpm generator,(or 250VDC).

minimum order 100pcs,lead time is 20 days.sample is USD1550/pc,lead time is 20 days.payment term TT in advance.

Thks & RgdsZhongfeng Li

Sales ManagerShenzhen Unite Industries Co.,Ltd.

Not sure which spec they sent me cause the power curve I got went up to 7K

unit only appears to weight about 150 Lbs! Again this is rated at 130 RPM, most likely for use in a VAWT, but I like the low rpms in any case.

Thats incredible...

xymox · « **Reply #22 on:** February 09, 2009, 07:15:23 AM »

follwo up response.

Hi Aaron,

If the volume can reach over 500 unit, it is possible to bring the price down to 1500 USD.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Paul

wooferhound · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2009, 04:04:41 AM »

Sounds like you need to do a little R & D

- Ripoff & Duplicate -

TomW · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:54:00 AM »

Woof;

What I found truly curious is when I asked him what he brought to the enterprise beyond "an idea" he never responded. I thought it was a very reasonable question directed to someone "organizing" a commercial venture?

I suspect that is the extent of his intended "contribution".

I say we let him do his own homework as he obviously has nothing more than the idea.

Just one mans opinion.

Tom

benoitdeguffroy · « **Reply #25 on:** March 09, 2009, 02:56:38 PM »

hi Jon,

can you drop me a mail please to benoitdeguffroy@hotmail.com, I need to ask you a few questions about the afpm generators.

Regards

ben

Inverter600 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 16, 2009, 11:32:19 AM »

This can be done.I know because I'm gearing up to do exactly that.My advantage is 30 years as an engineer in the electric motor and automation industry.Also my location in rural Kansas with the facilities and local labor talent in place.There is still

some dependence on the Chinese for purchasing magnets.All other materials are going to be U.S. made.You are right as far as target price.I may be at a 10% disadvantage in final selling cost.(5kw@$2200.00)

ghurd · « **Reply #27 on:** April 16, 2009, 02:15:35 PM »

It would be nice to see it come to fruition.

Have you considered UL/CE, umbrella insurance, people smart enough to answer emails, warranty issues, advertising... ?

Even packaging ain't cheap...

Then the quantity.

When xymox said "500 units", I wondered if that was a month or year.

I am in OH, very near where GM makes the Colbalt (etc).

Easy access to steel, transportation (ocean, rail, and highway), low cost highly skilled labor ($10/hr will get a BA), mostly dormant manufacturing facilities...

There was recently talk of a wind turbine factory.

But nobody can compete with China in the cost department.

G-

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Author Topic: Looking for partners to build 5kw alternators (Read 8501 times)