Is this a safe substitute for a transfer switch?

[ArmedAndDangerous]

Where I live, the power basically never goes out, due to the fact that most power lines are under ground. That said I'd still like to be ready for an outage if something happened to the substation or whatever. Given the price of normal generator transfer switches, it isn't practical for me to install one.

In the event of a power outage, would it be safe for me to simply flip off my main breaker, and plug an extension cord from a generator or inverter into the circuit(s) in my house I want to power?

[kurt]

if the power company catches you doing that they will slap you with a huge fine and cut your power lines from the grid until you have your entire house inspected by a certified electrician they take that stuff very seriously because linemen can get killed if you back feed the grid

[kurt]

not to mention if you hook a cheep portable inverter up to a bonded neutral circuit like your home wiring it will let the magic smoke out of the inverter immediately when you turn it on.

[ArmedAndDangerous]

I find that very hard to believe. First of all, that's the point of turning off the main power breaker. Secondly, I own the wiring, I'll do as I damn well please with it, it's not the power company's business if I'm not using their power. Thirdly, the power company has no authority to give anyone a fine.

[coldspot]

A&D-

Turning off the main is right.

But,

"http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/7/4/193146/8689"

See my story about what happens when you try mixing

RV type stuff with homes wired to NEC, (National Electric Code)

"bonded neutral circuit"

You'll need to add a knife type switch that does that bonding, and open it when switching the main.

or

"will let the magic smoke out of the inverter immediately when you turn it on"

well not immediately, unless something is on, when I did it, it wasn't until I turned on the bathroom light switch. On about 1/2 a sec then off.

I ran to the battery bank and saw a lot of that smoke!

[wdyasq]

I think that you find you have a 'contract' with the power company that is specified by the state. As this is a 'safety' concern with the power company, a 'public' utility, there are a lot of rules and regulations you may be subject to just because you are have a tie to the 'public' utilities.

Once the utility company has a concern you may be creating a safety hazard, they have a right not to supply you a connection until their concern, the 'Public' utility's, are addressed. While it is your wiring, it is their arse, or their lineman's.

Look at it like this, say you have a car blocking an intersection. The 'authorities' send a wrecker. They are thinking about hooking up to it when the notice some orange sticks with wires coming out, a clock attached and some blinking lights on the front seat. You assure the fellow it is safe to tow the car. You think he is going to hook up to it? I think you would probably be invited to visit the cross-bar hotel and would need a lawyer or have one appointed. An improperly hooked up inverter has the same potential, in the minds of the 'public' utility.

Play your games. You will find the power company has 'rights' also. They can usually afford higher priced and better lawyers due to their 'collective' money gathering processes. It is not a fun game when you find out they have all the good cards and control of the deck.

Hey - but it your project. And, like the young woman said, "Your cow, you can do anything you want with it."

Ron

[elvin1949]

 OK i will start at the bottom.

#1 Smoke the inverter

#2 Burn the house down

#3 Kill someone [you,a member of your                    family,lineman]

#4 Go to jail

 I think a UL listed transfer switch is cheaper.

Later

Elvin

[ArmedAndDangerous]

Christ! Do you guys have a clue what a circuit breaker does? It DISCONNECTS the house wiring from the utility. COMPLETELY! The thought that this is going to somehow kill a lineman is absolute stupidity.

[spinningmagnets]

I'm not suggesting that you do this, and I would never approve of fiddling with dangerous things that can have high liability issues, but...

As I'm sure you know, the wall sockets are on several different circuits. Its possible for half the wall sockets in your home to go out temporarily, and the other half to still be powered.

During a recent power outage, my co-workers informed me that several of them had CUT THE MAIN BREAKER FROM THE CITY TO THE HOUSE, and then started up a common "Home depot" generator and plugged a "double male" extension cord from the gen to a wall socket. Every circuit connected to that particular wall socket then had power. This gave them a refrigerator, microwave, and TV.

I was informed that if a running generator is still hooked up when the breaker is re-connected, damage to your home and generator will ensue (impossible to perfectly align the city/home-gen phases).

If a lineman is re-connecting what he believes is a "dead" line (isolated and tagged-out by the city), and you connect the main house switch when the gen still running, the lineman will be electrocuted.

This works, but it is no casual hacker tip.

"The boys throw stones in sport, but the frogs die in earnest" -Roman proverb

[Flux]

Yes the breaker does just that and if you are aware of how it all works then it will do no harm. Not everyone knows what they are doing and others like me have a bad enough memory to forget to do things. A proper change over switch is foolproof, your scheme needs thinking about.

The power companies need things to be foolproof and their rules are based on that.

It would be foolish to advise you to do such a thing in public, knowing that it violates safety rules. As others have said " your choice", if you must do it, make sure you do it safely and make sure that you alone do it, trouble comes when more than one person are involved in these things and one forgets what the other has done.

I know someone who did this for years between two private generator plants ( no danger to the utility). He went out one evening and the lad changed over when he thought one generator failed, it hadn't and it ended in a very expensive mess, fortunately no one was hurt.

Flux

[Micheal]

Hmmmm I have in the past just kicked the mains off and did the double male cord thing with out even thinking about it.... Now that I had a chance to read this thread its got me thinking. Unless I lock my mains anyone could flip them back, also because I could make mistakes I do not feel simply flipping some breakers is safe enough. because the safety of the power  company employees are paramount. I will use extension cords. Problem solved. total cost er what 50 bucks....ok 70 if I want hot pink cords.

[halfcrazy]

simply put it isnt a safe or smart practice some one could DIE simply install a transfer switch that is the only safe way the power company will unhook from your house and can refuse to rehook if they catch you backfeeding that way even with the main off remember technically the main breaker is part of there line as it is the first means of disconnect. coming from a licensed electrician with many years experience do it right.

[FishbonzWV]

A and d,

Where I live the grid is down frequently due to the fact that I am on the tail end of the grid with lots of trees and power poles between me and the substation.

What I did was install a breaker in the panel to 'back feed' from my generator when the power is out. I keep the power cable to the gen rolled up beside the panel so it takes a concerted effort to get the system up.

I wrote VERY detailed instructions on the proper sequence to enable AND disable the aux power circuit. I don't want any high amp loads used so I turn off those breakers as well. To make it fool (me) proof I color coded the breakers in the panel and put the color codes in the instructions. Those instructions are taped to the inside door of the power panel. Since I will be the only one to do the switch over I don't see why my method should be unsafe.

The gen is only run during daylight and for night I use extension cords plugged in to the inverter to run a couple cfls.

I have had to use this system only a couple times for extended (days) outages.

Fishbonz

[kurt]

you can get a lock out plate that makes it so the mains have to be off for your backup gen breaker to be on and this meets code as a transfer switch in most states. it may require some rearranging of your breaker box to fit.  

[TomW]

Mister Dangerous;

Please explain exactly why you ask a question that anyone with a clue knows the answer to, get the answer you did not know only to adamantly argue against the quality advice you got?

I will expect you to turn on your respect switch here if you wish to continue posting.

What you propose is STUPID and dangerous.

You have been warned.

I am quite certain you can find a forum someplace where they will tell you "yeah, sure". Then you will be happy, they will feel helpful and I will be glad I am not a lineman working on your power supplier's lines.

As Ron pointed out, you surrendered a fair bit of "freedom" WRT your wiring when you attached to the grid. Accept it and live with it.

Ok, you are welcome and thanks for being respectful of users here, especially when you disagree.

I was too lazy to log in as Editor but you can be assured what I am saying here is "official"

TomW

[richhagen]

Your breakers must be different than mine.  Mine only disconnect the hot wire from the local utility. :-)  The neutral stays connected as it is run directly back to their lines.  As others have said, the utility would have a cow if they found out what you were proposing, and the utility where I am would certainly disconnect you for it.  

You may find that your property rights are not exactly what you think that they are.  I am not sure what your location is, but where I live, one can be fined for wiring 'deficiencies' even inside ones own home, and the local government can get a court order to inspect it even if you tell them no.  If you are stubborn and absolutely refuse to pay fines or 'correct' the problem, you may eventually find that you no longer own your former property when the local sheriff comes to remove you from it.  Rich

[dlenox]

ArmedAndDangerous,

I recently purchased a manual transfer switch on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300181027076&ssPageName=STRK:MEW
A:IT&ih=020

They are selling them for a very reasonable $330.

I have seen others (Squared D) for about $350 as well on eBay.

Is this too much to spend to be in line with the power companies rules?

Dan Lenox

[alibro]

You guys have all just spoiled my day

I have just got my wind turbine running well, connected some old batteries, set up an old UPS as an inverter and routed a mains cable from the UPS into the house (not connected yet). My next step was to break into some of the circuits in the house (I did train as an electrician albeit quite a few years ago) with some sort of crossover switch so that I could manually switch over from grid mains to RE mains. I was aware of the possible problems of inadvertently having both mains on at the same time but it never occurred to me of the safety implications for cable guys during a power cut. I hadn't thought it through completely but was planning to use relays with break before make contacts so that only one source could be connected at any time.

Now I,m thinking it might be easier/safer to install sockets around the house which are only RE mains and reconnect the computers/TV's etc when the RE mains is turned on. I can hear the kids complaining already at the idea of so much hassle every time dad asks them to switch over!

Without spending a pile of money is there no easy way of doing this safely?

Alibro

[TomW]

alibro;

Try using a couple plugs and outlets.

bring a hefty outlet out of the breaker panel for the circuits you want to use on different sources.

next to it install an outlet from your inverter.

Put a hefty plug on the feed for the circuit you want to be changeable.

Simply plug in to the appropriate outlet for the source you want.

This is absolutely safe, inexpensive and easy. Manual changing may be the drawback. Can never back feed the grid.

More than one way to defur a feline you know.

Cheers.

TomW

[CmeBREW]

A&D,

    Certainly understand what you are saying. Why those Transfer switches cost SO much is beyond me! A $10 dollar steel box with a big throw switch inside??

I would think it would be more like $60 for a 200 amp. I quess UL needs their cut.

No need to get angry. You asked a very good question that probably a number of people actually try. However, it is easy for circuit breakers to 'stick'. You can click them off, but the mechanism inside is still on. I've had this happen many times. Electricians will tell you the same. So the danger to linemen is too great for this eventuality. Not to even mention what would happen to the backup generator.

The 120vac from the backup generator would go thru the stepdown transformer in reverse --which steps it back up to over 1000 volts which now can travel many miles down the road and possibly kill a lineman. Thats why they HAVE to have that strict and yet sensible code.

Keep watching on Ebay, and you will get a good deal. Especially on the 100amp switches if you only need to power a couple of frigerators and tv, etc, etc.

Or if you only have one frig, you may get away with a small 15amp transfer switch like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Manual-Generator-Transfer-Switch-Panel-1-Pole-15A-120V_W0QQitemZ270196080013QQih
Z017QQcategoryZ56995QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[hydrosun]

I've installed a couple of these lock out plates on Square D QO brand breaker boxes. It requires the breaker used to back feed the generator into the house circuits be installed in the upper right position of the box, directly underneath the main breaker. The only way to turn that breaker on is to slide the metal bracker over which shuts off the main breaker. Then it's up to the owner to decide which breakers in the house to leave connected. Too many loads will overload the generator and possibly damage equipment if the voltage goes too low. I rememeber paying around $50 for the kit from either a wholesale electrical or a good hardware store that carries a good selection.  The installation easily passed imspection. And it makes it more fool proof to connect a generator.

As others have pointed out some inverters can't handle having the neutral connected to ground, so those inverters can't be connected to the usual house breaker box. The better inverters like Trace or Outback would have no problem with this type of setup. These inverters will also provide under voltage protection. With a 120 volt output from the inverter you also have to connect the circuits you want to keep live with this backup, on the same leg as the inverter is back feeding.

Chris

[harrie]

Wow, You sure opened up a can of worms. What I do, is simply pull the meter If I know the power will be off for a few days, this of course requires cutting the seal pin. The power company here just requires one to call them and let them know that you did this, so they can come out and put a new seal on after outage.

OF course you need to be careful not to touch the top lugs in the meter socket EVER!!! And Yes, this could be dangerous, but than what isnt???. IF you know what your doing, it is not a problem.  

[spinningmagnets]

When I posted that "I've seen this done, and it does seem to work" I really am serious about I don't encourage experimenting without comprehensive homework. The two interlocking switches seemed like a good, idiot(me)-proof safety. Only one or the other could be hooked up, no way to accidentally have both on at the same time (my memory is bad...did I, or didn't I switch it?).

I know experienced linemen always treat lines as if they're live, and wear the extra-high-resistance gloves. I think it's more likely that there might be a problem with a rookie lineman in a hurry, OR A CHILD MIGHT TOUCH A DOWNED LINE OUT OF CURIOSITY. I personally stuck an all-metal knife in a wall socket, fortunately only into one side and with one hand. I waited till my mother was in the other room because I knew she would try to stop me.

I am not an electrician, I only posted to encourage the spread of common prudent safety interlocks, because I am certain there will be people who will hook a gen to a wall socket whether any of us talked about it or not.

I am also certain that clever people will think of this all on their own, without stopping to consider all the angles, so...good topic!

[alibro]

Sounds like A sensible idea and I can get some 32A sockets cheap. It does seem a bit clumsy though.

Alibro

[ghurd]

Here, the pin is a piece of wire with tab. The retaining ring is like a hose clamp.

They replace the meter up side down, so none of the connections make contact but it keeps kids and fingers out.  These have provisions to hold it solid.  Not sure about other places.  I think they are old sockets.

G-

[Capt Slog]

I was once told that the 'double male plug' thing was the biggest cause of accidents with home generators.  I don't remember who said it to me and have no idea where their info came from, but it seemed good sense to me and I've passed it on to anyone who's ever suggested it since.

[fcfcfc]

Hi A&D:

My first thought is, Poof!!, someone of some thing. BTW, ever hear of Murphy!!

You know what the nice thing is about a triple pole, double throw center off?? Answer, it can not be in two places at the same time, even if Murphy is "working it".

I hope you load your guns with blanks... try decaf...

[Micheal]

It seems I haven't made myself clear....... 1. I WILL NO LONGER USE A DOUBLE MALE. 2. I will run cords instead....  since i have 2 people telling me what I already learned I have to assume <---- "gotta love that word" that I am being misunderstood.

[HenryVG]

Great topic!

I've done this for years in an area where outages are real common. It was always easier to just energize a circuit instead of using a couple extension cords and hooking the fridge and a light up. Sorry to hear I've been doing something dangerous, but glad nothing ever happened and I know better now. If I can carry the generator from the garage, I can certainly run two extension cords.

Thanks for the edumacation!